Shang

[SYoung]

Any word or buzz yet on Susur Lee's new restaurant Shang to open this week (?) in Thompson LES?

[oakapple]

Any word or buzz yet on Susur Lee's new restaurant Shang to open this week (?) in Thompson LES?

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Where did you see that it is opening this week?

[Nathan]

Any word or buzz yet on Susur Lee's new restaurant Shang to open this week (?) in Thompson LES?

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it's not. projected opening dates are always several months off. see the Corton or Ko threads if you don't believe me.

[Dryden]

Anyone been?

[LPShanet]

Anyone been?

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I've heard very good things second hand, and hope to get there within the week...

Anyone who goes sooner, please post impressions.

[docsconz]

Anyone been?

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I've heard very good things second hand, and hope to get there within the week...

Anyone who goes sooner, please post impressions.

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I have a reservation for this Saturday, weather permitting. It will likely be my last major dining outing of 2008.

[Dryden]

Went to Shang yesterday evening, tried a good cross section of the menu. We had a 6 PM reservation, as we were eating with our little one and my wife's father (who is Chinese). We were finally seated at 6:30, as staff meeting was running late. Not a good sign out of the gate...

Food finally hit the table around 7.

In total, had the oxtail soup, dim sum vegetable, turnip cake, steamed savory rice squares, wild garlic shrimp with XO, stir fried orzo, squab breast and foie gras and kobe beef. Coconut creme caramel and warm black sesame and peanut tong yuan for dessert.

To summarize - vastly disappointing. Service was very, very slow, flavors were off, a lot of the compositions didn't make a ton of sense - there seems to be a predilection toward a crispy noodle/kataifi crust on top of a number of dishes. On the dim sum veggies, it had bonded all of the dumplings together to make it impossible to eat any of them individually without smashing through it, with a fair amount of effort. In the tong yuan broth, there were grapes. I have no idea what they were meant to accomplish, but they added nothing to the dish at all (which badly needed more sugar).

It reminds me a lot of Wakiya, although the style of high-end Chinese is very different, it has many of the same failings. The flavors are just way too underdeveloped and the dishes are way too busy, and end up in a mess. Why New York can't get a place comparable to the Flower Drum in Melbourne, I have no idea, because we sorely need one...

[docsconz]

Went to Shang yesterday evening, tried a good cross section of the menu.  We had a 6 PM reservation, as we were eating with our little one and my wife's father (who is Chinese).  We were finally seated at 6:30, as staff meeting was running late.  Not a good sign out of the gate...

Food finally hit the table around 7. 

In total, had the oxtail soup, dim sum vegetable, turnip cake, steamed savory rice squares, wild garlic shrimp with XO, stir fried orzo, squab breast and foie gras and kobe beef.  Coconut creme caramel and warm black sesame and peanut tong yuan for dessert.

To summarize - vastly disappointing.  Service was very, very slow, flavors were off, a lot of the compositions didn't make a ton of sense - there seems to be a predilection toward a crispy noodle/kataifi crust on top of a number of dishes.  On the dim sum veggies, it had bonded all of the dumplings together to make it impossible to eat any of them individually without smashing through it, with a fair amount of effort.  In the tong yuan broth, there were grapes.  I have no idea what they were meant to accomplish, but they added nothing to the dish at all (which badly needed more sugar).

It reminds me a lot of Wakiya, although the style of high-end Chinese is very different, it has many of the same failings.  The flavors are just way too underdeveloped and the dishes are way too busy, and end up in a mess.  Why New York can't get a place comparable to the Flower Drum in Melbourne, I have no idea, because we sorely need one...

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I was somewhat disappointed with Shang as well, but for different reasons. I thought the food was creative, tasty, pretty and well executed. We were served family style with a party of 8, which is not my favorite way of eating intricately plated dishes. Some of the dishes worked better than others this way, but I found an inconsistency in the provision of serving utensils. Another issue was not matching portions to the number of our party. For example, we were served 6 wonderful Mongolian lamb chops, but needed 7 for everyone in our party (we also had a small child that made 8) to have one. I had to ask for the additional chop. The place both in food style and pricing I would most compare it to is Momofuko Saam Bar, to which I prefer Shang.

FWIW, Susur Lee was not in house Saturday night. I suspect that he returned to Toronto for the holiday weekend, but it could also be that he has returned there for longer with plans for occasional returns to Shang. I don't know.

I will be posting a more detailed description of our meal along with photos on my blog.

[Pan]

[...]The place both in food style and pricing I would most compare it to is Momofuko Saam Bar, to which I prefer Shang.[...]

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Based on the rest of your post, I think you mean that you prefer Momofuku Saam Bar to Shang.

[docsconz]

[...]The place both in food style and pricing I would most compare it to is Momofuko Saam Bar, to which I prefer Shang.[...]

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Based on the rest of your post, I think you mean that you prefer Momofuku Saam Bar to Shang.

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Sorry to be confusing, but despite some faults I definitely still prefer Shang to MSB. The price points are similar, I found the food at Shang more interesting and Shang is much more comfortable. What appeared to be service aberrations at Shang are a matter of course at MSB.

[Sneakeater]

Was the decision to eat "family style" yours or the restaurant's?

[docsconz]

Was the decision to eat "family style" yours or the restaurant's?

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It was the restaurant's, though I do not fault the approach per se considering that we asked them to choose plates for us. It was never really clarified on either end. I expected about three or four plated courses per person in a tasting menu format, although they do not specifically offer a tasting menu. What we received was about four rounds of food served family style. Some plates came with serving utensils, while others didn't, though they should have and some didn't for which serving utensils were less necessary like the chicken and the lamb. Overall I found the food to be good and the place a good value, albeit with flaws.

[docsconz]

My full report with photos.

My conclusion:

The meal may not have lived up to the extraordinarily high bar set by my previous experience at Susur earlier this decade and there may have been a few flaws and imperfections, but overall my experience was quite positive. Given the economic climate, I believe that the restaurant is poised to make the best of it, offering creative, unique and delicious food at a very reasonable price point in a sophisticated setting with generally efficient and attentive service. Susur Lee has come to NYC and now it is time for NYC to come to Susur Lee.

[Dryden]

Doc, having read your full report, I find it interesting that we basically ate none of the same dishes, other than the dim sum veggies, which we seem to agree on that the crust makes no sense at all, and the foie gras/squab dish, which was pretty good. I find it interesting that you mention that much of the food might make more sense with cultural context. My wife is chinese, and we went with her father (who is, obviously, also chinese). His comments, basically throughout our entire meal - "There is nothing chinese about this food." FWIW.

[docsconz]

Doc, having read your full report, I find it interesting that we basically ate none of the same dishes, other than the dim sum veggies, which we seem to agree on that the crust makes no sense at all, and the foie gras/squab dish, which was pretty good.  I find it interesting that you mention that much of the food might make more sense with cultural context.  My wife is chinese, and we went with her father (who is, obviously, also chinese).  His comments, basically throughout our entire meal - "There is nothing chinese about this food."  FWIW.

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Did you order yourselves or did you, like us, ask the kitchen to send out some dishes? As for the cultural context, I really only applied that to the dim sum veggies and the overlaying crust. I can see how someone who is a traditionalist might take offense to some of the food if it doesn't quite meet one's expectations of what it is supposed to be. I sometimes feel that way about approaches to Italian food. This food has a base in Chinese food with other elements mixed in as opposed to most fusion restaurants in this country that mix Asian (or other) elements into a western base. Nevertheless it is the food of a creative chef as opposed to a pure rendition of a culture. I can also see how it might not appeal to everyone. It did not appeal to everyone equally at our table either, though nobody disliked the meal. Most of the issues stemmed from texture as opposed to flavor though, especially the softer textures. The dishes universally raved about included the singapore Slaw, the crispy taro puffs, the artichoke salad, the lamb chops and the panna cotta. Everything else had proponents and detractors to varying degrees.

[oakapple]

We dined at Shang last night (blog report here). While I respect Dryden's report, it almost seems like he is describing a different restaurant. The food here, by design, is international fusion inspired by Chinese cuisine, but untraditional. We found everything inventive and impeccably done.

I never dined at Susur, but based on reports, I can understand why those who did would find Shang a tad disappointing, as it is clearly less ambitious than its Toronto precursor. Given the economic climate, I think there was a conscious decision to introduce the restaurant at a more accessible price point. Most of the dishes are in the $13–20 range. A party of two can put together an excellent meal for under $100—not cheap eats, but very reasonable by current standards.

Many of the dishes could be ordered as standard appetizers or entrées, but the staff steer you towards the "family style" format. We were advised to order four to six dishes to share, which was about right. I don't mind that format—my girlfriend and I often switch plates anyway—as long as the courses are judiciously timed, and as long as the dishes really do lend themselves to sharing. Both tests were met here.

The server's ordering advice was reliable. The dishes she suggested were good ones, and she didn't induce us to over-order (another common pitfall at such places). She also volunteered to reduce our bread order to a half-order, as the full portion (priced at a whopping $3) is more than two people would normally eat.

Restaurants usually have some service glitches in their first month. What I usually look for is: A) Does the restaurant realize when they screw up, or are they oblivious? B) What do they do to make up for it?

As an example, we ordered a half-bottle of white wine, which took seemingly forever to come up from the cellar, or wherever they store it. That shouldn't happen. But the server (without prompting) wisely told the kitchen to slow down, so that we wouldn't be drinking water with our appetizers. It's that kind of attentiveness that makes me think that Shang will do very well indeed.

[weinoo]

She also volunteered to reduce our bread order to a half-order, as the full portion (priced at a whopping $3) is more than two people would normally eat.

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What's the bread service? And they charge you for it??

[oakapple]

She also volunteered to reduce our bread order to a half-order, as the full portion (priced at a whopping $3) is more than two people would normally eat.

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What's the bread service? And they charge you for it??

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It's an à la carte format, and I'm fine with that. For instance, the Naan in Indian restaurants is usually not free. You could also make a case for giving it away, especially as it's only 37½ cents a slice. Then again, maybe not everyone wants bread; or maybe some folks want rice instead.

Edited January 3, 2009 by oakapple (log)

[docsconz]

She also volunteered to reduce our bread order to a half-order, as the full portion (priced at a whopping $3) is more than two people would normally eat.

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What's the bread service? And they charge you for it??

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It's an à la carte format, and I'm fine with that. For instance, the Naan in Indian restaurants is usually not free. You could also make a case for giving it away, especially as it's only 37½ cents a slice. Then again, maybe not everyone wants bread; or maybe some folks want rice instead.

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I felt no need for bread here.

I don't have a problem with family style service even if it isn't my preference in a restaurant, but I do want and expect adequate service utensils.

Marc, I think your assessment is spot on, as usual.

[LPShanet]

We dined at Shang last night (blog report here). While I respect Dryden's report, it almost seems like he is describing a different restaurant. The food here, by design, is international fusion inspired by Chinese cuisine, but untraditional. We found everything inventive and impeccably done.

I never dined at Susur, but based on reports, I can understand why those who did would find Shang a tad disappointing, as it is clearly less ambitious than its Toronto precursor. Given the economic climate, I think there was a conscious decision to introduce the restaurant at a more accessible price point. Most of the dishes are in the $13–20 range. A party of two can put together an excellent meal for under $100—not cheap eats, but very reasonable by current standards.

Many of the dishes could be ordered as standard appetizers or entrées, but the staff steer you towards the "family style" format. We were advised to order four to six dishes to share, which was about right. I don't mind that format—my girlfriend and I often switch plates anyway—as long as the courses are judiciously timed, and as long as the dishes really do lend themselves to sharing. Both tests were met here.

The server's ordering advice was reliable. The dishes she suggested were good ones, and she didn't induce us to over-order (another common pitfall at such places). She also volunteered to reduce our bread order to a half-order, as the full portion (priced at a whopping $3) is more than two people would normally eat.

Restaurants usually have some service glitches in their first month. What I usually look for is: A) Does the restaurant realize when they screw up, or are they oblivious? B) What do they do to make up for it?

As an example, we ordered a half-bottle of white wine, which took seemingly forever to come up from the cellar, or wherever they store it. That shouldn't happen. But the server (without prompting) wisely told the kitchen to slow down, so that we wouldn't be drinking water with our appetizers. It's that kind of attentiveness that makes me think that Shang will do very well indeed.

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I went last night with my mother and my girlfriend and have to say that my impressions EXACTLY matched those of Oakapple. The food is certainly not trying to be literally Chinese, but rather is a modern international fusion that has been informed and inspired by various Asian cuisines, including Chinese. I also thought the flavors were excellent and well-balanced, and I would certainly return (soon), given the food, price points, etc. I hope Lee is successful enough with this venture that we eventually get to experience the more ambitious experience of his former Toronto restaurant, which I understand he closed this summer to focus on Shang.

In addition to the positive of our experience, I also agree with previous reports that the service had a few noticeable gaps in it. The servers were very pleasant and seemed quite knowledgeable about the food, but would often disappear for long periods when they shouldn't have. There were extended waits between receiving cocktail menus and ordering drinks, before getting food menus at all, and at most junctures where service would be required (getting the bill, etc.). I don't think the issues were related to "back of house" at all, as the food and drinks all came to us in very reasonable time once they were ordered. Seems they just need a better system (or bigger staff) to cover the actual waiting of tables. On the positive side; at least in our case, the upthread complaints about service utensils seem to have been addressed. There was always at least one pair of serving utensils on the table on a separate dish at all times. In addition, we each were given fresh forks, knives and chopsticks whenever we used any of them, so that at any time there was always the choice of all three. Further, we were able to add additional items to the portion where needed to facilitate everyone at the table tasting a given dish. For example, not only was there no trouble getting an additional (third) lamb chop added to the dish, but the server actually offered to do so before I had a chance to request it.

The cocktails, of which we tried four, were quite good for this type of restaurant and were unique enough to be interesting while not overwhelming most of the food. The bulk of the cocktail list focused on modern "Asianized" interpretations of existing classic cocktails. A caiparinha added lychee and tarragon to the lime and cachaca, with pleasant results. There was a slightly too tart, but very nice whiskey smash that incoporated sour plums. My mother enjoyed a riff on a Pimm's cup that turned up the ginger quotient a bit and added a subtle exotic note. And a gin and galangal concoction was both light and flavorful.

The food we tried included their signature "Singapore Slaw", which was superb and memorable. Light, intensely flavored and easy to eat a lot of. It was loosely inspired by the green papaya salads found in Vietnamese and Thai cuisine, but with a few unexpected twists, including hazelnuts, among the 19 ingredients. We had the squab/foie rolls in lotus crepe mentioned above, which were very nice, and given a little kick by the inclusion of Holland peppers. Sort of a riff on the Peking Duck presentation and flavors. The potato dim sum were hard to separate, but the flavors worked. Onion and chick pea fritters employed Indian flavors, including a chutney garnish, and was ultimately a very skillful iteration of what dozens of tacky fern bars had in mind when they created their fried onion clusters (e.g. "bloomin' onion" at Outback). Lobster and shrimp croquettes were pleasant, though not outstanding, and gained little from the disk of daikon they were presented on. Still, nothing unpleasant about them and the shrimp and lobster inside were pleasantly distinct, rather than achieving the monotonous mush that sometimes happens inside a fried shell. Finally, the Mongolian Lamb Chops with glazed bananas, chili mint, carrot cardamom chutney and peanut sauce were really special. Cooked perfectly, and very flavorful on their own, the added sauces/garnishes added another layer of flavor. The chili mint was very fiery but delicious, and the carrot cardamom was very subtle but addictive.

As a final note, we squeezed in room for one dessert. The almond panna cotta was not at all to my taste, but well-executed. I'm probably not the best person to judge it, as the sweet almond oil flavor found in marzipan is one of the few food flavors on earth that I really don't care for, and that was the central note. Still, the passion fruit sauce was excellent and the garnishes of raspberry and mango almost made up for it.

I hope that Shang continues to work out the kinks as they move forward and that it becomes what Wakiya and several others failed to be, as Shang is clearly a superior effort.

[docsconz]

  On the positive side; at least in our case, the upthread complaints about service utensils seem to have been addressed.  There was always at least one pair of serving utensils on the table on a separate dish at all times.  In addition, we each were given fresh forks, knives and chopsticks whenever we used any of them, so that at any time there was always the choice of all three.  Further, we were able to add additional items to the portion where needed to facilitate everyone at the table tasting a given dish.  For example, not only was there no trouble getting an additional (third) lamb chop added to the dish, but the server actually offered to do so before I had a chance to request it.

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I am quite pleased to read this as those were my biggest criticisms.

[kathryn]

Went to Shang with a large group this past Friday. My observations:

We sat down, a busboy swoops away the glasses on the table, and then someone brought us filled water glasses (we asked for tap). I also was a little confused by why the water came with a lemon slice already in it. (Do they think NYC tap water tastes bad?) Also found the weighted chopsticks (heavy on the top end) to be awkward at first.

We too had to wait a little to get the cocktail menu and then again to get the food menu. Also I think some patrons have been stealing the pages out of the menus (it's a single piece of paper folded into two columns tucked under a piece of string) as 1 of the 3 cocktail menus we were given were empty. The other oddity was that the server described Shang to us as a Chinese (not "Chinese-influenced" or "Chinese-fusion") restaurant that serves family style.

Other than that, service was fine, and our server made some dish recommendations which were spot on. She also offered to put in some orders as 1 1/2 orders, without prompting, which was helpful for dishes that come in 4 pieces. Serving utensils were provided, our personal plates were refreshed with new plates periodically, empty plates were cleared quickly.

We ordered:

- Singapore slaw with salted plum dressing was excellent, not much more I can say about it that hasn't already been said. Our group of 6 demolished our two orders. Big thumbs up.

- Braised oxtail soup dumpling with tapioca enoki mushrooms and salted pork. A total misnomer on the menu where it says "oxtail soup dumpling." (I'm holding the menu in my hands, it says "soup dumpling.") This is NOT a soup dumpling as understood in Shanghai cuisine (xiao long bao). This is a single large dumpling in a single bowl of clear, light soup with a small shooter of vinegar to the side. Not a dumpling filled with soup. The dumpling itself had a nice wrapper and was a generous size but the oxtail filling was on the bland side (I expected more flavor). Very one-note. I really wanted it like this dish. The soup did nothing for me, either. For $10 per serving, this dish was not worth the trouble.

- Foie gras and chicken liver pate with green onion pancakes, wheat mantou crisps and black currant jam. This was quite good and the petite scallion pancakes were quite cute. The jam contrasted nicely with the pate. I would order this again.

- Turnip cake, steamed eggplant with Cantonese preserved black bean and shiitake mushrooms. The turnip cake was perfectly cooked and had a good texture, with a bit of crispness on the outsides. But the eggplant didn't seem to fit.

- Crispy lobster, salted duck egg, lemon balm, shallot, chili lime juice in lettuce wrap. Really more of a croquette with miniature greens on top, and then wrapped in lettuce. The lettuce seemed more like an after thought (why make something into a croquette and then put it in a leaf of lettuce). I thought the lobster filling needed a bit of salt. Overall: eh, especially for $9.50 each.

- Homemade steamed tofu custard with crab, shrimp, lobster, mussels and air dried scallop, dessert moss, Tanjin bouillon. Tasty and essentially a fancy chawanmushi. Comforting but not impressive.

- Diver scallop with 8 treasure rice steamed in fresh bamboo leaf, salt chili tomato sauce. The rice was excellent and very reminiscent of other glutinous rice dishes in Chinese cuisine. The scallops, being steamed, had a slippery texture that I wasn't wild about, but they tasted OK, if a little mushy and bland to me. I probably wouldn't get this again.

- Mongolian lamb chops, glazed bananas, chili mint, carrot cardamom chutney and peanut sauce. These were good. I was impressed with the sauces and glazed bananas but I felt that the lamb on its own wasn't seasoned enough. Maybe I just prefer more char on my lamb chops.

- Shang’s spiced slow cooked Berkshire pork belly with puree of lily bulb, red cabbage and apple puree. The mantou that came on the side had only 5 pieces, so we had to ask for another order in order for everyone to have at least one mantou ($3 for another 5 pieces). It felt odd to pair a wheat mantou to pork belly. And the mantou seemed a bit flat (not fluffy at all). Also the mantou were too small and thin to really hold a piece of the belly plus some of the purees, so eating this dish was a bit messy. The belly was really nice and soft but had less flavor than I expected. I still prefer the pork buns at Momofuku Noodle and Ssam Bars, though, particularly because there's a bit of variety in taste and texture from the vegetables. The Shang pork belly in the mantou plus some purees lacked any variety in texture.

- Crispy taro puffs with curry beef. The curry, beef, and taro flavors blended together in a really harmonious way. Good. But felt overpriced at $3 a puff.

As for dessert:

- Coconut crème caramel with cantilly crème and black rice pudding and ladyfingers. Tasty and the ladyfinger was quite good (like a freshly made Milano cookie). I was impressed that the dish came in a cup with a saucer, with a smear of marshmallow fluff on the saucer, where the smear had also been toasted. Beautiful presentation.

- Warm Banana Chocolate Cake with Jackfruit and Pineapple, Rum Butterscotch Sauce, Chocolate Pave and Spiced Macadamia Brittle. Nice texture (excellent crumb) in the banana cake, without the banana becoming overwhelming. And I'm not usually one for banana desserts. Our group's favorite of the three.

- Almond Crusted Warm Chocolate and Vanilla Custards, Huckleberry Compote, Lemon & Apple Cider Sauce. Like a pairing of hot custard-filled donuts. The chocolate was too milky for me and not chocolate-y enough, I preferred the vanilla one.

Overall, I thought the savories were hit or miss and the sweets were fine but nothing extraordinary. I appreciated that as a whole the meal felt elegant, clean, and light. But there is such a thing as a dish being too balanced as to be unmemorable. Only a few dishes stood out flavor-wise. I wanted a little more boldness and more seasoning in nearly everything. With judicious ordering you can put together a pretty good meal, but a lot of what looked good on the menu was ultimately disappointing.

Edited January 7, 2009 by kathryn (log)

[Dryden]

kathryn- completely agree with your comments. The flavors are just bland, which is about the most disappointing thing you can have for this kind of food.

[docsconz]

kathryn-  completely agree with your comments.  The flavors are just bland, which is about the most disappointing thing you can have for this kind of food.

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While I had my criticisms, one thing I didn't experience was bland food. I am not saying that the food you ate wasn't bland, I didn't taste it. The interesting thing is that I don't recall much of a disconnect in the past between my palate and either yours or Kathryn's though depending upon your views of Ssam Bar, there may be, as I didn't find that restaurant to be anything particularly special (perhaps its time I try one of the Momofukos again). However, if the food you and Kathryn had on separate occasions was truly bland and the food I and Oakapple had on separate occasions wasn't, that may speak to some consistency issues, which may be expected in a restaurant as new as Shang. If that is the case, I will expect to see that ironed out down the road as it appears the service issues I initially criticized seem to have been resolved.

[weinoo]

All of these posts are the reason I like to wait a couple of months before going to a restaurant which opens with a celebrity chef like Lee, with all its expectations, with all its hype, etc. etc.