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Risotteria


Sandra Levine
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A rabbi is out of town on Yom Kippur...Moses stops [God] and says ...

Since this thread has been taken over by the Department of Corrections (eGullet State) it is only proper that I point out that this is the Ashkenazi version of this well-known Biblical parable. According to Sephardi usage, the role of God's assistant is played by none other than the Archangel Gabriel.

I find the Sephardi opinion of greater merit, and am thinking of converting...

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Fat Guy - I'm not buying your explanation. I think every language has its own word for everything. But in certain circumstances they adopt the foreign word. And in some instances they pronounce it the same and in some they localize the pronunciation. Look at the word "baguette" and how it is pronounced the same way in both French and English. But look at the word "crepe" and how it is krep in French but krayp in English. I think this just varies from case to case and if an Americanized pronunciation catches on, that becomes the standard. But if the French pronunciation takes hold then that becomes the standard. But some words like baguette eventually become words in English if they are used enough. It just so happens that the common usage of the word and the French pronunciation are the same. And I have a lot of experience with this. I'm the guy who put "aksed me" as in "aksed me to say some MC rhymes" on the map so I understand the culture of commonspeak :wink:.

Jason - You are correct. Only proper pronunciation with perfect enunciation is allowed in the Hamptons. No cheap suits in shul.

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No, the o in Italian frequently does not rhyme with no.  It's a considerably softer vowel.

Tosca is not toe-sca, for example.  Nor is it taw-sca.  Nor is it toss-sca.  We just don't have that vowel in English.

Nina, you better tell all the people in Italy that they are pronouncing their language wrong.

The "o" in Italian almost always does rhyme with "no".

Vino

Rosso

Bianco

Verdecchio

Grosso

and Toscana is in fact pronounced with a long "o" sound. Not t-uh-scana, but t-oh-scahnah

Or, maybe you and I pronounce "no" differently, being from regions of the U.S. with vastly different accents and affectations in the language.

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No Ron, you're wrong. The normal pronunciation of the letter "o" in Italian is a short "o", in other words exactly as in "toss". When an "o" appears at the end of a word, it's always a long "o" as in "toe". Offhand, I can't think of a single exception to these rules, although my Italian wouldn't be extensive enough to do so.

You're wrong about Toscana. That is pronounced with a short "o".

Grosso has one of each, so it's pronounced "grossoe".

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Fat Guy - I'm not buying your explanation.

Well I don't care because I got a PM last night that says you're wrong. :laugh:

Can we all agree that Anglicize means what Merriam-Webster says: "to adapt (a foreign word or phrase) to English usage; especially : to borrow into English without alteration of form or spelling and with or without change in pronunciation"?

I think if you work with that definition it gets around the semantic debate about whether the word is one word in two languages or two words in two languages. It's a "borrowed" word.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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that's why I referred to it as "modern Hebrew."

I meant to indicate that your sarcastic example and Jason's were both too narrow and silly.

Although I'm as much a peasant as the next guy, my wife is not. I learned what you call the peasant elocution, but have adopted hers. I now prefer it, without any loss of identification with my peasant roots, no pun intended.

"My Fair Lady" was on the other night, but I was too absorbed in Audrey Hepburn to pay much attention to Professor Higgins.

Who said "There are no three star restaurants, only three star meals"?

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No, the o in Italian frequently does not rhyme with no.  It's a considerably softer vowel.

Tosca is not toe-sca, for example.  Nor is it taw-sca.  Nor is it toss-sca.  We just don't have that vowel in English.

Nina, you better tell all the people in Italy that they are pronouncing their language wrong.

The "o" in Italian almost always does rhyme with "no".

Vino

Rosso

Bianco

Verdecchio

Grosso

and Toscana is in fact pronounced with a long "o" sound. Not t-uh-scana, but t-oh-scahnah

Or, maybe you and I pronounce "no" differently, being from regions of the U.S. with vastly different accents and affectations in the language.

This is why I prefer Latin and Spanish.

One's a dead language and I doubt that y'all would have the intensity of debates trying to pronounce "magister".

The other is better known as "The Language of the People".

SA

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Rosso  is pronounced  Rowsoe  not  Rahsoe

Nope, it's pronounced as in Ross - oe

same with grosso

Only if you've pronounced rosso correctly

It is not Tah scana

Of course it isn't, it's what I said in my post, which is Toss-cah-nah

Ron, let's wait for a real Italian to come along and tell us. Of course I allow for the fact that Italian has as many dialect as America, and for all I know there may be a village near Brindisi where they do in fact speak Italian with an American accent (as in Rowsoe) but I donta tinka so :laugh:

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Everyone is wrong. The "o" is pronounced "m".

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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Although I'm as much a peasant as the next guy

Hahahahahaha.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Hmmh......it all depends on your cadence - rosso or grosso should be (high)ross (slightly lower) o. That's put the cat amongst the pigeon's hasn't it?

And that's correct, no argument or opinions pleeeaaaaase.

Of course accent does mean a helluva lot too. I remember a French girlfriend whose favourite author was 'that famous American writer' now you must put on your best Edith Piaff accent, pretend your drunk and then open your mouth very wide and say "On-ree - me-yaaaaaaar". I defy anyone one to figure that one out !

It's 'Henry Miller'

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Yes, you and Wilfrid are both wrong.

On the contrary, you have let yourself down on this one, Steven.

Quite a large number of foreign words used by English-speakers have anglicized pronunciations by conventions. Just sticking to place names, "Paris" is an example. So is "Moscow". "Peking" used to be an example, but has fallen out of fashion. "Boulogne" gets an anglicized pronunication sometimes; not always. Other place names, of course, are altered when they are transposed by English speakers: "Venezia" becomes "Venice", and so on.

No mysteries or disagreement there, surely.

Now, to get back to the point. The first 'o' in "risotto" is a short vowel in Italian - and there's no regional variation in that. I am not asking you to roll your 'r's (god forbid). I am just asking you to use the short vowel sound. And if you insist you are using an anglicized pronunciation of "risotto", I point you to the fact that the correct anglicized pronunication of "risotto" pronounces the first 'o' as a short vowel. I don't believe you'll find any English word where an 'o' is a long vowel when it comes before a double 't'.

As I suspect you know, the American mispronunciation of "risotto" developed because people - wrongly - think they are better approximating the Italian original by elongating that vowel. There are many other examples of American pronunciations where a vowel has been inappropriately lengthened for the same reason. "Rioja" - that long 'o' again - is one. These are misconceptions, not equally valid variants.

As you also know, dictionaries serve as an empirical record of usage and pronunciation. They are not a final court of appeal.

:raz:

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Wilfrid, go back and read my post again. I've been saying this all along, no matter how you misrepresent it.

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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Risotto should be pronounced: Rees-otto (as in the German name) descending on the last 'o'.

The best mispronouciation of Italian comes from us (i.e. Americans and the Brits): what about Tagliatelli? The 'gli' is NEVER pronounced 'gli', the 'g' is silent so it's Tal- yeeah - telly and not Tag-leeah - telly. :biggrin:

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the American mispronunciation of "risotto" developed because people - wrongly - think they are better approximating the Italian original by elongating that vowel.

And you know this how?

Come on, Wilfrid. You know better than to speculate in this fashion. And unless you can show me a guide to proper Anglicization of foreign words I fail to see how you can refer to "correct anglicized pronunication."

Just glancing through the words that begin in "ott": Ottumwa. :wacko:

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Jinmyo, behave yourself.  :wink:

That's what I've been saying.

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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The word is Paris. If you speak French, you pronounce it one way. If you speak English, you pronounce it another way unless you have an affectation that compels you to pronounce foreign words the way foreigners pronounce them (which is very annoying -- a person is speaking in normal English and then coughs out a foreign pronunciation with rolled "r"s and an s/z sound that we don't have in English, usually accompanied by a vigorous twist of the neck and a brief bout of standing on tiptoes, before going back to normal English; this is something that you can only get away with if you're a native speaker of the foreign language in question).

so you're saying since french is not my native language, i'm not allowed to pronounce "vosne-romanee" in french while i'm trying to help someone understand the greatest pinot noir village on earth? what am i supposed to say, "vahzne-roman-ee" because it's a "foreign" word?????

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Beats me. Ask Wilfrid. He's the one in possession of the official guide to Anglicizing words. :raz:

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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