Bux

How could we apply that to wines? If someone could reproduce the taste of a Chambertain, or even Gevry-Chambertain by artisanal or chemical means, should they be allowed to see it as such in the market place? What if someone in Oregon makes a better Pinot Noir than some jerk with property in the AOC area, and what if his wine has a greater resemblance to what one might expect from the AOC? When does it serve us better to have a word mean something other than quality?

I don't know where the "artisinal" comes from although I'm seeing it used by reasonably well educated members. "Artisanal" comes from artisan, or craftsman. I'm wondering how long this word has been in use in the English language. For me it's a word lifted from the French. It's a word I don't recall using until I started seeing it used to describe certain (mostly food) poducts in France. Jars of fig jam at a farm stand might have the word on it, as would lovingly produced mi-cuit foe gras sold at the local market. This was foie gras that was lightly cooked and packed in mason jars by a small producer, often the wife of the farmer who raised the geese. Sometimes it was the product of a slightly larger set up, but always had the distinction of not being factory made. The word was also used on signs and leaflets advertising the source. Another word that is almost synonymous is "fermier" as in "produit fermier," or farm product. The canned corn in the supermarket may have originally come from a farm, but fig jam that bears the label "produit fermier" should have come from the farm that grew the figs. It may well be that today the word means high quality in the US as Plotnicki says, but that seems to be a gross misrepresentation, and as unreasonable to me, as calling any cheap red wine, "Burgundy," or carbonated wine, "Champagne." We still do both of those things here in this country although the EU has adopted and enforced the French laws in that regard. Earlier, in another thread, I asked if anyone knew if the word "artisanal" was controlled in France and I don't recall getting an answer. My guess was that you cannot legally use the word "artisanal" on a label in France unless you complied with a legal definition. I may be wrong about that and in any case, it wouldn't stop people from misusing it in speech or arguing about whether Pain Poilane was an artisanal product or not. Plotnicki is free to argue that there is no longer a relationship between artisan and artisanal, and that if tastes good, it's artisanal, but anyone else may claim it can only be used to describe cheese or foie gras or whatever they'd like to believe.

Good point. There's just about zero fat in the pork tenderloins we get. Pound for pound, I'd guess it's less fatty than a skinless chicken breast.

If it's good quality pork and not too fatty, it's best when it's a little pink. That's far beyond what rare beef looks like. Julia, in her first cookbook, stated that trichinosis was killed at 131 degrees, but that the official figure is taken as 137 degrees. She does go on to recommend 180-185 degrees. I can only assume tastes are changing. We use 140-145 degrees for pork tenderloin at home. At that temperature the meat is slightly pink and quite juicy. At a higher temperature, the loin becomes tough. Pork belly is another story and requires a whole different approach, but it's safe to eat at 140 degrees.

Probably not significantly better and maybe not as good in some ways. My impression was that it was a lot less expensive. There's also Florence Meat Market on Jones Street around the corner from Ottomanelli. Some people prefer it.

Why wouldn't you refrigerate them. I've noticed most shops don't refrigerate their bulk olives, but we generally do at home. I can't say the keep longer than way, but I can't see the harm either. I've seen old olives that are just soft and mushy--unpleasant rather than rotten and I've seen olives get moldy, but otherwise I've not seem them go bad in any other way. If they're not moldy and taste good, I should think they are good to eat.

As I noted, we go to Grand Sausage for pork and Ottomanelli's for beef and lamb. The latter is also the source of our Thanksgiving goose. Closer to you for pork and some eastern European style charcuterie is Kurowycky on First Avenue north of 7th Street. I've heard they have great ham, but I haven't tried it myself. It's one place that always seems to have fresh slabs of fat back. We buy most of our fruits and vegetables in Chinatown. It's made some small changes in our eating habits, but a lot of those Chinese cabbages can be cooked as one would western vegetables, just the way they've adapted our vegetables into Chinese food in NY. We get fish in Chinatown and in terms of freshness, we've generally done well. There has been a problem or two and we prefer the Union Square Greenmarket as a source as often as possible. Of course I've had a problem or two in the fancy fish shops as well once or twice in thirty years. I stopped into D&D this afternoon and looked at their cheeses. On the whole they looked pretty good, but it seemed to me that their selection of the soft ripe French cheeses and goat cheeses was smaller than I remember. Less selection is okay if the level of quality is higher. I didn't check the cheese prices as they'd be meaningless without tasting. Other prices I noticed seemed high. Packaged goods were too high for the convenience offered, but I suppose that depends on the value of one's time and one's pcketbook.

Well give me credit for getting half of your message.

It's my kinda place too. That's kinda scary. I find the room very elegantly designed and comfortable, but not at all plush. While hardly spartan, it's certainly not luxurious. I haven't had the duck breast in a long time. I recall loving it at the time and I'd really like to go back and order it, but everytime the waiter says "Dan would like to cook for you," I can't say "No." Sometimes it means I'll get the tasting menu, but once in a while I'll get something really special, but the duck breast is never the main course. The turnover in service has been the least positive thing about Blue Hill, except for the lighting level which I'd love to see raised. I've liked most of the servers. A few were amateurs in the worst sense and one or two have been even less convincing, but last time I was there we really enjoyed the service. I keep hoping the service will become as consistent as the food, but I also keep hoping the prices won't rise. Overall, the restaurant seems true to itself which, I think, adds to the general enjoyability of an evening there.

We can decrease the animosity many find on these boards by taking the time to read and reread posts before assuming the worst interpretation. I didn't say Marty didn't vary his oils, all I said was that I don't have a favorite. Just as the members may be interested in knowing he has a favorite and in knowing what it is, I suspected some members might be interested in how I regard and use oils in my kitchen. I doubt that either Marty or I have an army of followers who will regard our habits and practices as the way of light. I suspect there are more than a few who will read this thread and find many points of view worth considering. I would certainly imagine more than a few users will be on the lookout for Castello di Volpaia olive oil from Tuscany. There's no need to put words in my mouth or spin my posts for others. I think my post was clear enough for most users to understand, but since you ask, he has my permission to have a favorite. You are correct however, when you note that the time consuming as well as aggravating part of shopping in specialty stores is the waiting to be served. The wait in Di Palo's on a weekend afternoon is incredible and would be interminable if I didn't get a chance to get involved in a few conversations with Louis, Sal or one of the customers from time to time. That's another thing that reminds me of Europe when shopping there--the intensity of interest of some of the customers in the food they're buying and their desire to tell you how they cook and use the products.

"They just thought I was nuts" sounds like the story of my life. One of the nice things about eGullet for those who do not have friends who are as food obsessed as we are, is finding those who share our interest. One thing that's obvious is that we enjoy your insight on Gagniare and l'Astrance. I hope we'll hear more from you.

I haven't been there, but would the name of the shop be Oliviers and Company? [i see Fat Guy has confrimed that as I type.] They have shops all over NYC, including Grand Central Station. They have shops all over France, and I'm willing to bet all over the world. I haven't tried their products so I don't know how good they are. My fear is that with so many stores and the volume business they must do, it's got to be hard for them to have truly artisanal products. For me, the advantage of NY is the variety and choice it offers and I tend to eschew shops that are chains, even when of a ery high quality. Marty mentions his favorite olive oil. I don't find it interesting to have a favorite oil. I much prefer to vary my oils. It makes salads much more interesting. I'll generally taste a variety of the novellos when they come in and make a mental note of the ones that interest me and go through them over the year.

I rmember D&D when it was just D. On the South side of Prince Giorgio DeLuca opened a cheese store which eventually grew into the empire he sold. It was a store where you dealt directly with the man responsible for both buying and selling the product. He knew his goods and he not only had to look you in the eye when he sold them, but when you returned the next time. Now it's a corporate affair where the sales clerk has no connection with the product and more often than not, no knowledge. One of the few places in Manhattan where that's not the case is Di Palo's. Louis is in contact with the producers of his parmesan and his olive oils. Of the latter, he carries a good number of artisanal olive oils from a number of Italian producers. One particular farm from Sicily provides him with three distinctive novello oils each year--two are single olive varietals and the other a blend. Louis spends time in Italy getting to know his producers. Most other stores have buyers who spend time getting to know the wholeslaers and importers here. Robert, I think it's interesting that shops find a place in your shopping pattersn and then lose it and find it again. The same happens to us, with the exception of a few stores. It's those stores that offer something the other shops don't have that draw us in, but lose us because after the initial joys, we discover the gaps in their stock and service. I shop price. (I feel like I'm at an AA meeting.) It's hard to shop price on meat, fish and produce, but I won't pay six bucks for canned and bottled goods that available for five a few blocks away, except in a pinch. Moreover, when the twelve dollar oil is going for sixteen dollars, the meat and produce starts to look suspicious as well. The draw of a place like D&D is that people can get all sorts of things under one roof for a special dinner and they can buy presents with a fancy label. The thing about presents is that we (in the editorial sense) like to give presents that have an aura of luxury and nothing says luxury more than a gift from an overpriced shop.

One of the big problems I've had with D&D has been that standard items--packaged goods with long shelf life--are just so much more expensive than they can be had elsewhere. They have a nice selection of breads, but with three bakeries within a few blocks, I can get great bread that's fresher and at a better price. We've tried the meat department several times. It's convenient, but we couldn't justify the price on the quality alone and the skills that might make it a fine butcher shop were just not there. We go to Chinatown for pork at incredible prices ad the Village for beef and lamb at reasonable prices. I haven't compared their cheeses in terms of quality or price to Murray's. We used to buy desserts there, but since Ceci Cela opened, I've ben happier with their small selection of things. Many of my complaints about D&D go back a long time, probably before they became a national corporation. I can't imagine them getting better now. While I'm at it, I'm not a big fan of Gourmet Garage either, but don't get me started on that again.

Never drink it straight. Always with four or five parts water to one part Pernod over ice.

i'm not buying suvir's book because his recipe for curry steak has no, um, steak. And what might it suggest about my Indian food? Where's the beef?

No one is ever going to guess this thread is sponsored by the Association of High Priced Uni Suppliers. That doesn't sound like any uni I've had. Maybe I've been lucky, or I've got a taste bud deficiency in that range, although I've had an oyster or two that was probably not unfit to eat, but definitely an unpleasant surprise. Uni should taste clean and almost sweet, in a non sugary sense, almost more than of the sea.

I think they've been pulling your leg all along. Come on guys, Jinmyo and I are not so gullible.

I don't think anyone not visited should be offended. I suspect it's safe to say that he didn't know anyone else in the dining room. Had he gone around the room and said hello to just about everyone and not stopped at my table, I might be offended, or at least puzzled. It all boils down to whether you go to a reastaurant to eat well, or to socialized with the chef. Why is any diner important enough to rate a table visit if it's not done as a matter of course? I know Daniel Boulud and I'd be a bit surprised if he didn't at least nod my way if he was in the dining room. Usually he will stop and perhaps shake my hand and give my wife a kiss, but there are other members of his staff that will do the same. Still if he came into the dining room and ignored me while he sat for 45 minutes at another table, I'd assume they were very good friends or that they had some important business to discuss and it would not offend me. I haven't been in Daniel for a while, but it's my recollection that he doesn't regularly make rounds of the dining room. I don't know who does these days. Have members seen many chefs, especially four star chefs make the rounds in NY? Are you or your friends visited at other restaurants?

I didn't think to ask. These had been wood roasted and I ate them with the other vegetables so it's quite possible they were helped along by the company they kept. Christopher, thank you for that. To respond to the last posts, I saw Brussel sprouts in the greenmarket this morning. I did not look closely at them as I am not cooking the vegetables this Thursday. Come to think of it, we had wonderful Brussel sprouts last year. The leaves were all separated and formed part of a melange of things including bacon or pancetta, as I recall, but a dominant part. They were prepared by a professional cook, and another cuisiner at the table joined my protest at the inclusion of red grapes that were halved and seeded. We were sure it would ruin the dish, but in fact, it was sensational. There are times when complexity really works.

Ann let me echo Robert Brown's sentiments. I found your post every much worth reading. It's always a joy to read about a meal that was immensely enjoyed. I can tell by the way you speak of a few dishes that this food made a great and positive impression on you. I was particularly struck by what you said about it never occurring to you in a million years to combine an ordinary material with certain other tastes and ingredients. Some chefs refine and codify a cuisine, but chefs such as Gagnaire excel in doing what we would never think to do. Of course there are chefs who do what no one else would think of doing and we understand why as soon as we taste it, but I agree that Gagnaire is a master at choosing these tastes and recognizing when it works. I see you are new to eGullet. Let me welcome you and especially let me welcome you to the France board. We get a lot of posts on food and restaurants in France from British and American travelers, but I gather from the countries you mention and what you say, that you are not from the US. I also note that you mention Taipei, is that where you reside? I'm not being nosy and of course there's no need to answer that question, but I think it's interesting to us all how people of various cultures react to French cuisine and not just to three star food.

I rarely enjoy eating in my hotel room, especially in Paris. Part of the joy of traveling, and of being in Paris for me, is being in public places such as cafes, brasseries, and restaurants. Every now and then, we get an upgrade to so some large suite someplace and my attitude changes.

I don't mean to be an alarmist and occasionally use a lemon, lime or orange peel in a recipe, but I've noticed in France that every time a recipe calls for citrus peel, they specify non traitee or something to that effect, meaning you should use the peel from a fruit that wasn't treated with pesticide or other toxic materia. I've also noticed in better supermarkets, those hypermarches that offer an incredible array of goods and run for country miles in the middle of either nowhere or a new shopping center, there is often an array of different grades of lemons, or oranges and some are definitely labeled as untreated. Here in the US, that kind of labeling is only required on the carton, if at all, and the local shop need not mentioned it on the display of oranges removed from their shipping cartons. I usually wash the skin if I'm going to use the peel, but some of those topical sprays can be absorbed. I figure I don't eat much of it in the long run, but it is a concern, especially as almost all the cartons I've seen say treated with some long name I can't fathom.

It's worthwhile to note for the benefit of those members less familiar with French pastry that macarons (with one "o") have little in common with macaroons. They are both baked and therefore come from bakeries.

In a previous thread, I believe it was robert brown who posited the idea of modern "executive chef" (with the NYC high end restaurant paradigm) as analagous to a high end parisian coutourier. You know "House of Ducasse". I thought it right on. I think it's an appropriate comment as well, but in the greater historical context that also includes the master artists and craftsmen of the renaissance whose studios produced the work they signed.