Bux

To those employed locally in the hotels and restaurants in Manhattan, or those who have financial investments in those places, it may be an economic blow. To those who own or work on the ship, it may be an economic boon. The money will be spent but it seems a missed opportunity for the party to show what it can do to restore the post 9/11 economy. I think the posts about the quality of food on board cruises misses the mark. Most of those attending the convention will not care much about food quality. I don't mean to put down Republican tastes, or even the taste of politicians in general, but the fact is that most conventioneers do not make a beeline for Daniel, AD/NY, le Bernardin, or even Blue Hill or WD-50. Those few really interested in that sort of food will make a point of getting there. Most restaurants in NY serve food that can't be that much more boring that what's on board. I offer the popularity of Olive Garden and other mediocre chains that have discovered NYC is good business for them.

I have some understanding for the dedicated vegetarian viewpoint, although I had little appreciation for the member who in another thread noted he only ate some meat for reasons pertaining to his health. What I don't appreciate is the focus on foie gras. I didn't find the PAW website offered a compelling argument. I found more of the same statements that offered up cruelty as if it were obvious, but conflicting reporters have found no cruelty, or more cruelty on chicken farms. If were more sympathetic to the vegetarian viewpoint, I think I would stop eating mammals before I worried about ducks and fish. Janedujour, if I have to go, being steeped in Banyuls would not be the worst way and I simply reject any claim that lawnmowers are noisy so as to drown out the screams of the grass.

Two obvious factors shouldn't be dismissed. Alex is a very devoted father and chefs rarely see thier kids when they're awake. The country club in question is very near where he lives and I'd guess his hours are fewer. I'm not saying this information should be taken and the simple and complete answer to everyone's questions. Others have speculated here that they expect to see Alex back in Manhattan in due time. I could speculate on any number of reasons why Alex might take his present job for a period of time even if he were looking to eventually open his own restaurant in Manhattan. If nothing else, he gets a window of time to be with his family and he's probably in a better position to make plans for any new projects than he'd be if he was still in the Daniel Kitchen.

I think there's little question but that the 20th century put a premium on creativity above craftsmanship in the arts from the beginning of the century and that food began to be seen as more of an art than a craft at the end of the century. I don't mean to imply this is either a good thing or a bad thing. It can be both or either. A book printed on cheap paper that will yellow and crumble in 20 years is still worth reading. A painting that will fall off the canvas in twenty years may be worth looking at and appreciating for the momentary visual effect, but food that has eye appeal, or intellectual appeal, but that is neither well made nor tasty is of no use to a diner. Adria scores well with me, because in the end, I've enjoyed eating his food. The enjoyment is heightened by the thoughts it provokes and even more so by the discussion it provokes at the table. It's not that you must think about the food, but that doing so heightens the pleasure. Does it ever taste better than a simply, but perfectly grilled langoustine or bowl of peasant pea soup perfectly made with a ham bone? No, or at least no more than any painting in a museum or gallery appears better than a wonderful seashell or majestic landscape.

NYC is hardly the only place to get foie gras. This thread is about foie gras in California, but it can certainly be found in between the coasts. I will also maintain that foie gras is no one's lunch meat. It's celebratory food for most of us, but it can be found in the restaurants that mainstream America goes to for that special dinner. The Maine Times offers a recipe for Foie Gras Mousse made from a fresh lobe. The recipes are from the Market Grill in Portland. The Harraseeket Inn offers Butter Poached Maine Lobster, with Seared Moulard Foie Gras and Banyuls Steeped Figs as a “Luxury” dish. Restaurant Bandol in Portland, Maine, offers Chilled terrine of La Belle Farms foie gras with fig jam and toasted brioche at a $8 supplement to their dinner menu. Lobster commands a supplement as well. It's worth noting that a google search on "foie gras Maine" brings up many web pages where Maine lobster is considered as great a delicacy as foie gras and as much a luxury food. Do you consider lobster main stream? I do, but also as a celebratory food for most people. The Bluenose Inn in Bar Harbor features Pan-seared Hudson Valley Foie Gras with a cherry-potato tower, vanilla sauce and grilled onion bread. At Arrows Restaurant in Ogunquit, Maine, Tourchon of Hudson River Valley foie gras with citrus aspic, citrus syrup, celery root and radish salad, pickled pearl onions and condiments will set you back $16.95, but that's less than Six Maine Belon oysters with mignoette and American sturgeon caviar, which run $22.95 Point well taken. Maine seems very much not a backwater.

More likely we're not going to tell you why because you won't like the answer. I'm not exactly sure that second sentence is properly structured, but I take it to mean they are implying they might carry foie gras in another season, such as one where the demand is heavier. Which is most amusing as I suspect more foie gras is eaten, as well as presented as gifts, at this time of year than any other.

Mongo, I think we would agree that whatever prejudices are held by anglosaxon eaters and particularly by the dominant culture in the US are the result of history and not the product of a fair, intellectual and rational process. I'm afraid that this discussion is moving towards the politics of colonialism. I do not support colonialism, but I am not going to get involved in a discussion of why one culture was homebound when I state that the average Indian citizen in 1900 was not likely to understand the revolutionary aspect of Impressionism. My point could just have well been made by noting that the average American today is not going to understand a social or cultural change in India. My references are to the separation of cultures and lack of cross understanding, not to illustrate that one is better in any manner. I will grant that it may be unfair that the US has a Eurocentric culture in all things, not just food, but that will not change the result. Every group of people and possibly on a smaller scale, everyperson who has come to this country has changed the culture a bit, but the culture is what it is and it changes slowly. My guess is that in India, French cooking is not held in the same esteem it is here? Am I correct? NB: This subthread seems to have very little relevance to El Bulli and should it continue, we will have to move it elsewhere.

Manzanillas are not vintage dated and unfortunately, are really best when fresh. A good fresh bottle of manzanilla may be among the best buys in the world. They may also be one of the least appreciated wines. I suppose that keeps the price down. Outside of Andalucia, they don't seem to be all that popular even in Spain.

In various guises this has been the subject of previous threads on one forum or another here, and I suspect will contine to be at the base of many threads in the future. The centrality and universality of French cuisine in the professional kitchens of the western world cannot be disputed. To be a French chef in a kitchen almost anywhere in Europe and the Americas was a mark of distinction. One need not acknowledge any superiority of the actual cuisine to acknowledge the respect it got. I've heard Italians complain about how we re-articulate their food as well. We're back to the same point. Any culture is going to best appreciate those things that most relate to what they already know. That applies to individuals as well. Would a resident of the Indian subcontinent, who was not a world traveler, been able to appreciate the differences between Monet and Manet? Would he have understood the contributions to western painting these artists made? I suspect not, just as I know that those westerners who followed the history of western art understood the contributions better than those who didn't pay much attention to it. We are all a product of our environment and shape our environment in turn. That's why cultures become self propagating and insular.

Thank you for that report. I found it fascinating for what it told me about the restaurant, about you, but most of all for the universal issues you raise and points you made. You have a good palate and approach food with great passion and intellect for a 23 year old. I gather from your comment that one of the best three meals of your life was in your famiy, that you were raised on good food. I ate well as a child, but food was never subject to such discriminating thought as my wife and I now give to a meal.

Excellent question and one I'm not in a position to answer. I wonder if anyone who's not spent their entire life eating sichuan or bengali food, could answer with any accuracy. The only way I could begin to approach the concept might be to ask myself would I enjoy or appreciate the food of a revolutionary chef in India, Pakistan or any part of the world, where my appreciation of the finesse of the traditional food is limited. My guess is that you'd find it interesting, but not necessarily more so than many simpler but exceppent examples of local cuisine. When I first had lunch at El Bulli, there was a large group of American and Canadian hikers and bicycle riders having lunch. There meal finished shortly before ours did and we got to talk to a few of them out on the terrace after lunch. It turned out that none of them were foodies. Many had not been to Europe before and none of them were the kind of people who did the gastronomic circuit's in France. They were all rather well off financially and most were rather middle aged, but exceptionally healthy as one might expect from bikers and hikers. They had all signed up for a luxury athletic tour of Spain and the organizers booked the best restaurants. They all seemed to love the food in spite of not having much experience in classic haute cuisine. Their experience would not be analagous to yours as they all had life long exposure to western food, but their palate was not trained to appreciate classic haute cuisine. To an extent, they were less aware of the creativity involved, but in another way, they were far more open to new ideas than a more trained palate might be. We've had testimony here that a well known French chef cooking in America thought his meal tasted like "merde."

My message to Williams-Sonoma at the link provided by Walt. Their reply.

Stepped back? I believe Alex Lee was executive chef from the day Daniel opened. I know he was executive chef at the time the restaurant moved to its present location. Jean François was made executive chef when Alex moved on. Jean Francois has been with Daniel a long time and I believe he has worked in all three of Daniel's NY restaurants. really? my mistake. so boulud's title was owner/chef or some equivalent? I worked on Daniel's first web site. As I recall, he was always referred to as chef/owner and Alex was listed as Executive Chef. I'm less sure about the early day's in the old 76th Street location. It's possible that Alex might have been referred to as sous chef in those days. At 65th Street, there were usually as many as three sous chefs under Alex. Towards the end of Alex's association, the hierarchy may have changed and become more complex.

Stepped back? I believe Alex Lee was executive chef from the day Daniel opened. I know he was executive chef at the time the restaurant moved to its present location. Jean François was made executive chef when Alex moved on. Jean Francois has been with Daniel a long time and I believe he has worked in all three of Daniel's NY restaurants.

I'm sorry you need to express that sarcasm at this thread. I don't think your post reflects what anyone is thinking here. There's nothing silly about working hard in a foreign land without command of the local language. These errors are a testament to the industriousness of the restauranteurs in a foreign land and not to any inherent silliness in overcoming their hardships and lack of English. That their sons and grandsons can come to this thread and join in the serendipitous humor is a further tribute to the culture and humanity this group of immigrants brought with them. Are anglophones the only ones who find humor in malapropisms? Do the French and Italians not make fun of the English and Americans who butcher their languages? Do they do it in good fun? Is it harder to spot one's own spelling errors when dealing with a strange alphabet as well as a strange language. I should think spelling would be even harder for someone coming from outside the latin alphabet.

Though not nearly as good as crab. My question is, if you ordered crap in expectation of getting crab and got carp, do you have a legitimate complaint. Of course if you got crap, there's no room for complaint.

Gramercy Tavern is mainstream in that it's popular with tourists from all over the country and there's very little on the menu which most American's don't already understand. It's not every day lunch mainstream, it's high end fancy special occasion mainstream. Union Square Cafe, with it's slightly less expensive and even more accessible menu, is even more mainstream. That was the whole point to William Grimes' review of it in the NY Times. I had a wonderful cold terrine of foie gras at USC. No one is saying that foie gras is lunch meat, only that it's become reasonably accessible and available to the mainstream, even if it's at the high end special occasion restaurant in the area. In France, over 90% of foie gras is consumed between Christmas and New Year's and those who only get to eat it two or three times a year, still care passionately about it.

It's possible I am just too dense or literal not to see what you see. It is equally as possible you are reading far more into a menu than anyone intended. A third possiblity is that we eat at entirely different restaurants.

The production is illegal, but how about the distribution and sale? I've had foie gras in Vancouver, but it was some time ago.

Survive yes, but thrive? We can survive without art or music as well. We should all want to do better than just survive. We survived prohibition. As a nation, we have a history of passing laws and turning our backs to the problem. Lysteria is a case in point. We ban raw milk and unaged raw milk cheeses, yet we have a higher incidence than countries that allow raw milk and fresh raw milk cheese. Of course if we ban foie gras, the net effect will be for the price to rise when and where it is available. Since I've first discovered foie gras, the price has dropped considerably and it has started to appear on menus all over the country. It is no longer restricted to haute cuisine restaurants nor to those on the coasts.

Katherine, I don't see that you have any responsibility but to side with those who are working towards improving the quality of our food supply. By quality I mean both taste and healthfulness. By letting a fanatical group derail discussion of food, I think we're letting the important issues get sidetracked. Economic class postions are being drawn on the foie gras issue and the net effect will be to polarize opinion. There's also no question in my mind that meal and fowl raised without antibiotics and other chemicals are more expensive to raise. Those who don't support foie gras because they can't afford it, or are unwilling to pay the price even if they can afford it, may not pay the price for healthy chemcial-free meat and poultry either. That's why I think we all need to understand the issues and not let fanatics successfully influence the market. I do not believe I can eventually expect a group determined to ban the sale of meat, to work towards healthier meat. It works towards their position to have meat be bad for you.

Do you have any reason to believe the best foie gras is not from free range ducks and geese? The descriptions I've read of farms that raise the highest quality foie gras sound no different from those that produce free range chickens. You've posted an opinion based on the assumption that your question will be answered to support your contention, which is why I dismiss your opinion. Let's assume for the moment that there is no free range foie gras. Would that be a good argument to ban foie gras and allow battery chickens? Might it be much more effective to ban the factory raising of all fowl? I could support that. Perhaps the key to your opinion is based on the fact that you could care less if foie gras were banned.

Sonoma county is home to one of the major foie gras producers in America. My guess is that the company is a major contributor to the economy. My other guess is that this "proposal" is not one being made by the establishment and that it probably doesn't have great appeal. The Sonoma Foie Gras duck farm in San Joaquin County has been the target of multiple break-ins and a lawsuit charging animal cruelty. Sonoma Foie Gras sued the animal activists first, seeking an end to the trespassing and a ruling that the duck farm is legally and properly operated. This proposal to the Sonoma City council appears to be just another form of harassment, by a fringe element that is getting more sophisticated and therefore a greater threat. There are a few things that are being overlooked in this thread. One is the the objection is being made to "force feeding" or "gorging." Note that "force" is a far more effective term if one wants to prejudice those who know nothing about the process. I've spoken in defense of foie gras on my site when the site was more active and I've defended the production, sale and eating of foie gras here on eGullet a number of times. I've yet to read a really well thought out reply by anyone with any knowledge of the process that didn't eventually reveal a strong prejudice against eating meat under any circumstances. "Gorging" is something waterfowl do seasonally in the wild. What the farmer is doing is controlling that normal process, and perhaps taking it a bit further. I say perhaps and I will admit that in the wild, the ducks gorge for survival. Here they are getting ready to die. That's just what happens to any animal raised for food. There's little evidence that gorging itself is either harmful or unpleasant to the animals. In France, on small farms, the ducks and geese come running up to the force feeder like junkies. If they don't do so on a large factory farm, I'd not be surprised. Raising animals under factory conditions may be immoral, but it certainly doesn't lead to better tasting animals. For that reason I have a problem when the issue is couched in the terms Robyn used: The issue of endagered species is not related to animal cruelty and I'm not sure gorging or force feeding is either. It's a mistake to lump this all in under the politically correct banner. Each is a separate issue to be judged on it's own terms. Smoking is yet another red herring in this debate.

I wonder whether the opposite might not be true. I suspect NY restaurants get a lot more traffic from visiting Europeans and Keller may well be interested in getting more publicity in Europe. None of this is to suggest he's going to have trouble filling his restaurant in the near future or that he's not already well known in Europe.

It was about a half dozen years ago that we stayed and ate at Moulin de la Gorce, in St. Yrieix la Perche, near Roche l'Abeille which is south of Limoges. It was quite lovely and our meal was excellent. We've not been back to the area, so I don't have an update with more recent information. It was also midsummer. The grounds may not be so verdant and there might not be ducks in the pond, nor sheep in the meadow at the far side of the pond, but I imagine the house monbazillac would still complement the foie gras. One star then and I believe it's still one star. It was also about the least expensive Relais Chateau I've ever had the privilege of knowing. The Grand Hotel du Lion d'Or, in Romorantin, is a really excellent choice. We stayed and ate there last year and were thoroughly impressed with the food and the inn although in a way I found the decor a bit too urbane in some public areas, but that's not a fault. The food, while certainly not old fashioned or stodgy, is not on the cutting edge of creativity. In spite of that, or maybe because of it, my meal there was one of the most memorable meals I had last year. Most guide books and reviews seem to suggest one have the saddle of hare, but I couldn't resist the hare stew with bitter chocolate. That dish alone enshrined Didier Clement in my memory, although the interestingly seasoned pigeon was also reason enough to make me want to return. We sort of built our own tasting menu by splitting dishes between us. My only regret was that I was too full for cheese and the selection looked incredible. Arrive here with a good appetite. I also recall an interesting list of Loire wines which would be a contrast to what you probably had in Bordeaux. The inn is quite a bit more plush than the Moulin de la Gorce. Not far away just north of the Loire, Domaine des Hautes de Loire in Onzain is another choice. It is really in the country and has spectacular acreage. We enjoyed long walks in the leaf strewn woods. I also appreciated the more provincial, though by no means rustic, style of the buidlings and rooms. Overall, we enjoyed it as much as the Grand Hotel du Lion d'Or, but I might have to give the Lion d'Or the slight edge in terms of the cuisine, although both are two stars. In general terms of comfort and luxury, they are in the same league. I believe they may be closed in December and January however. You don't say when you are going to be making the trip. I've found a lot of the better country inns take a good vacation sometime in the winter.