paul o' vendange
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Posts posted by paul o' vendange
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Fully agree. At the end of the day - no matter the price point - every bottle, every food offering, should be valuable: price paid was worth it, given the experience.
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I don't have the book with me right now, but I read it yesterday and thought about coming in today and replying here.
There's a chart in Culinary Artistry that talks about menu progression (I think)... In there it says that Escoffier (or maybe Careme) calls the in-between plate:
Relevés
I know it's been shut down before, but that's what Dornenburg and Page say about the subject
Godito - THANK YOU! Page 228, Culinary Artistry. This, I believe, is where I most recently saw it. And RachelD, apologies, as I do think this was the word, and you mentioned in on page 2 of this thread. Although it sounded exceedingly familiar, it didn't 100% leap out as The One. But I believe this is the word I am thinking of - thank you both.
Collosal brain drop-off, everyone - embarrassing, to say the least - esp. given I use the word a good deal. Much like forgetting the name of a lifelong friend.
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my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.
I agree. The assertion that all wine in Burgundy is of a similar high standard is ridiculous. Even worse some very poor wines from distinguished appellations are both very expensive and absolutely appalling.
We stopped in Beaune recently and it was interesting to see the range of outlets offering wine - some excellent in range and price, others truly awful. It's a pity that your friends had such a disappointing experience but, for me, enjoying burgundy is a matter of a lot of research, a lot of money and a lot of luck.
Beaune was one place they stayed. I do know they paid for a professional guide in Alsace, and, based on this guide's connections, they had some wonderful stops - including an impromptu stop at a winery that had just completed a tasting, and a noted wine reviewer the guide knew invited them back to the winery for a tasting of among 20+ wines.
They were on their own in Burgundy, they may have just been overload, and they simply got some misses.
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i have travelled in france three times recently. you really have nothing to worry about. your friends experience is uncommon and rather startling to read.
my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.
i have been consistently floored by the food and wine that can be had in france for very reasonable prices.
Thanks, WKL. I think a good many appellations are potential minefields, but this is part of the joy. This is the other thing I was surprised by - they indicated the price of wine was through the roof, much to their surprise and dismay. I would not think this is a general phenomenon.
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Swiss - I don't have specific places, outside of Atelier (where they left feeling very disappointed). If I got her right, my friend indicated that she and her husband were almost universally treated to a kind of Burgundian "nationalism":
Another point I had trouble with is that when we’d speak to people about the wine, especially in Burgundy, what we got more often than anything else was “ALL the wines here are good” like there was some magical element about Burgundy that made it so that any idiot could make a great wine. Our experience didn’t show that, and we spent time talking to the owner of the B&B we were staying in – an English man who was an importer/distributor of French wines for going on 20 years. He just rolled his eyes at the attitude, and confirmed what we’d found – a lot of French wine is crap, just like a lot of American (and Australian, etc) wine is crap.My friend indicated they bought the (2 bottles) while on the road, so they couldn't easily take them back. She acknowledged that placing an overall assessment of French gastronomy based on experiences in Burgundy (or, as a consumer, on the zany overpricing on Bordeaux wines) isn't the best sampling. I do know they sought to avoid tourist traps, deliberately pursuing out-of-the-way places with good local report.
I'm in an odd place. I've cooked French food since I was a young teenager - as ridiculous as it was, I was dog-earing La Technique as a 12 year old, and never stopped. I spoke French rather fluently by the time I was 15. I was a young Francophile, in love with the language, history, and gastronomic culture of France. I have worked in the industry many years, and have regularly and preferentially consumed French wine, as I believe it tends to marry better with food than its more supercharged cousins of the New World.
But I have never been to France. As I mentioned in my opening post, part of this is all self-serving, as my wife and I intend on moving there next year. She was a winner of the WCR International Pinot Noir Festival fellowship, and I wish to fulfill a lifelong dream - though I've cooked these many years, and owned/operated the first French bistro our way, I have never formally studied and I intend on pursuing study at ESCF. My friends' report so flew in the face of everything I have known, I wanted to get the input of others.
Thank you very much, by the way, for the link to Nicolas.
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Thank you one and all - very apt points and much appreciated. I must admit some self service here - my wife and I are planning a possible move to France next year; I have enjoyed French food and wine for decades, but only from afar, and their report so flew in the face of everything I had come to know, that I wanted to get other opinions from people who either live there, or visit frequently. I wondered if they had set the bar so fancifully high that a couple of bad experiences unduly soured them, as you allude to, Lucy. As well, your market photo thread, read a few years ago, now, was enough to seal the deal.
Felice, thank you, too, in particular - I had never thought of things from this angle.
Thank you again, everyone, for your thoughts.
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Hello all:
We have some very good friends recently returned from France, who spent time mainly in Paris, Burgundy, and Alsace.
While they enjoyed Alsace, and found its food and wine up to expectations, they were horribly disappointed with the balance of their journey - in particular, they felt Atelier was a wash, and Burgundian wines were, in her words,
"probably the biggest surprise to both of us was just how bad the bad wines were. I’ve had bad wine everywhere, but I’ve never had so many obviously flawed bottles in the US. After pouring one $35 bottle down the drain and having another one that ____ choked down (but I couldn’t) we were afraid to buy wines in Burgundy. We knew there were magnificent wines out there, but the hubris of the people there who insisted that any wine made on the Sacred Ground of Burgundy had to be good was hard to overcome."This does not square with my impressions at all. Regarding wine, it has always been my experience that French wines, generally, have always been done with an eye to food, while Californians, at least, experienced a rebirth on the heels of competitive accolades - and this necessarily drove an industry hell-bent on in your face presence, balance be damned. Much the same, for me, regarding other new world wines. I do love them, but usually as stand alone drinks - I don't find they marry as well with food, generally.
This was all spawned, in part, by my surprise at their negative reports of their trip, and by her strong disagreement with Craig Camp's assessments in this forum, "Kissing the Frogs."
The first post really rubs me the wrong way. I think the boat has gone on the whole “nobody makes wine like the French” thing. I’m hardly an expert, but I’m not a novice either, and I think the vast majority of the French wine industry is kept going by smoke, mirrors, and hubris.Those with experience, please chime in. What is your experience of the state of French wines, and French regional cooking? I realize this is a huge question, but off-the-cuff responses welcomed.
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Well, there are many I'd recommend, each for different things (raw materials selection and preparation, food combining, regional cooking, etc.). For the fundamentals of cooking technique, 30+ years ago now, when I was a young teenager, I was given the best gift I could have asked for: La Technique, by Jacques Pepin. I worked it cover to cover, and it put me in good stead for the decades to come. This book, with La Methode, has now been combined into Jacques Pepin's Complete Techniques.
I agree, the Madeleine Kamman book is great, as are a good many others. I believe Jacques Pepin's works were the first to almost exclusively emphasize French technique, over recipes, in introducing the popular market to French cooking. (Though Julia Childs' Mastering the Art of French Cooking long preceeded La Technique, the latter is much more heavily weighted to technique).
Edited to add: After reading the above post, I'd love to read through Ms. Willan's La Varenne Pratique. It appears to be a substantial, exceedingly well done book. The editorial review indicates the book is, among other things, "close to an expanded version of Complete Techniques."
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Jamison Farm Lamb in Pennsylvania. The best I've ever had. Worth the price.
That's two plugs for Jamison now. What I found remarkable was how reasonably priced they were. I bought their loin and shoulder, and, especially given their attention over the last several years, I would have expected higher prices. Great family outfit.
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just when I thought I was out of it, I got sucked back into it. I'm once again doing the Have Knife-Will Travel gig again; this time in Madison, Wi at a Tex-Mex joint in a groovy neighborhood. Hey, the pay's good, the hours are flexible, the waitstaff's gorgeous, and we got a smoker on the premises.
With empty rack space.
Anybody got ideas about what I could throw in there that'd benefit from smoking over hickory for 12-13 hours at 225*F? Is that too long or too hot for bacon?
BTW, we're revamping the menu. We're gonna be doing some duck. All hail anyone who gives me a juxtaposition of duck and smoke.
Duck confit, cold smoke, grill.
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The strength of flavour can depend on how much fat has been trimmed off, and that makes comparisons difficult.
If you find a local product, try to determine the breed, the farm location, and the feeding practices. A few butcher shops will co-operate.
I would agree with the above posts. There are differences, but within those general tendencies, so many other variables can come into play as to minimize or negate altogether the presumed tendencies of the two "terroir."
That said, let me put a plug in for Jamison Farms lamb. We used them exclusively, and it was outstanding.
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Where is Restaurant Faude?
markk's website with photos of Restaurant du Faude .. thought he might add his link ...
and, ahem, who first brought up trou normande in this tangled web .. thread? Moi ... ici, mes amis ...
Thank you, Melissa.
Thanks, too!
There are actually lots more photos of the Faude food here, on the website that I maintain more carefully:
more Faude photos from Markk's Eating in France Extravaganza
Faude is in the Vosges Mountains in Southern Alsace, not far from Colmar, and it is an enchanted place - the hote/restaurant, and the area. I've sent other gulletteers there with an introduction to the chef and his wife, and they reported back that they had a fabulous time.
Great, Mark, thanks. We have some friends that just paid a visit to Alsace, and I wish we would have know about this prior to their leaving. I'll tuck it away for future use.
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Unfortunately I don't think I can bone this thing (unless I cut it into small pieces or chops.) It seems to be the upper part of the shoulder with more than a few ribs. Am I better off roasting this as a whole or attempting to make chops out of it?
You may want to excise the ribs, and treat the shoulder separately; if doing just the shoulder, it isn't pretty, but just follow the bone lines - the flat scapula, and the long bone - and you will clear the meat. I usually began by cutting midway the length of the scapula, which brings you to the ball and long bone. A flexible knife is really helpful, especially along the interior of the scapula, as you must bow the knife in the hollow to avoid losing a lot. My favorite way is to just bone it out, and marinate it overnight in (de-alcoholed/flamed) white wine, garlic, mirepoix and thyme. I then cover the inside with garlic, salt, pepper and (fresh) herbs de provence, gather the meat into a ballon, S & P the outside, sear, and braise on a bed of mirepox, with the marinade, a decent amount of romas, and a bit of orange zest, for 5-7 hours. "Gigot de sept heures," except it is "l'épaule de sept heures."
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Where is Restaurant Faude?
markk's website with photos of Restaurant du Faude .. thought he might add his link ...
and, ahem, who first brought up trou normande in this tangled web .. thread? Moi ... ici, mes amis ...
Thank you, Melissa.
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All this brain-delving and senility sensation has been worth it---just for that dinner alone, Paul. But we'll all have a little cranium-tickle going on til someone unearths the elusive nom.
My favourite has always been at the end, anyway.
Mignonises
We can only hope, Rachel.
Yep, this was a truly enjoyable evening. I have never been hired to do this before, a "pop the question meal." (though started cooking this way when I was but a kid - oddly enough, I was catering these intimate dinners as a teenager - so, in some ways, last night was a life-cycle circle).
Merci pour votre gentilité.
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The frustration continues. I wrote to the chef/owner of Restaurant du Faude in France (who has become a friend and pen-pal over the years), in whose restaurant I am sure they use the term, and I explained our situation (that we're not looking for 'sorbet', but the name of the course for which that is served to cleanse the palate) and gave him a sentence with a blank to help him:
“Comme _______, le chef vous envoie ce sorbet”
... and replying to me in English, he wrote:
"The french name for this is Trou Normand "...
except that's not the phrase fighting to escape from the cobwebs of my mind, or stuck on the tip of my tongue...
Man, I want to find this so we can all sleep. Or cook. I wanted to recall the name for a private dinner I cooked last night - a couple, guy proposing to his girlfriend. They both hail from Chicago, though she is a local news anchor. He drove up from Fox & Obel with halibut in tow (we cannot get sources up our way - the one thing I've hated since our restaurant closure). He was really happy to go to F & O again, since when he produced for NBC he was a block away...
At any rate: Amuse, a mushroom veloute and accompanying ragout crostini, made with locally harvested and farmed mushrooms (along with a "chip" - thank you Thomas Keller):
"Halibut Provencale" - pommes anna, a trio of red pepper coulis, basil oil, balsamic glaze, with ratatouille:
And, as she loves figs, walnut crepes with port-poached black mission figs: (a bit of valhrona chocolate all over the plate):
Oh, and she said "Yes."
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I had always thought Trou Normand was a liquer or liquor serving this purpose, and once sorbets came into vogue, the liquer or alcohol-laced sorbet was a bit of a historical bridge (I tend to prefer granités - the ice "shaves" the palate better, imho) - non?
Where is Restaurant Faude? My family and I are likely moving next year to Paris for 9 months, and after, we hope to comb the countryside for food, food, food...and wine, wine wine. The petit will have to be content with juice.
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Heh. Yeah. It seems like one of those words that would have been used in like. . .the first four issues of Food Arts Magazine.
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I do have a tip for you, though. Whenever you forget a word, just substitute "thingie". It's quite a pleasant way to live.
Hahah - I'm on it - there are a few issues on my shelves....
Edited to say, man, I'm batting a 1000 - not Food Arts, but Art Culinaire.
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Seriously, I think that there is such a word and that it was one of those words used in certain places during a specific period of time. An American slang version that meant "palate cleanser" but yet was in French (so to speak) but not really *from* the French language. So it might *not* be recognized as a "real" word by Francophones. That would explain why my focus went to thinking of Cajun cooking when trying to remember the word - my memory stems from restaurants of North America rather than of France.
Sigh.
Really, this is alternately funny and terrible.
Good point, Carrot, very aptly said - yes, this was a word I saw in practice - the operative word being "practice," as in my experience in N. American restaurants. I wouldn't know whether it is used in France, but you keenly point out that it may be something used in the restaurants of the States, so my looking through LaRousse, or French language sources, for example, may be barking up the wrong tree. I have been searching the web for the former restaurants where I worked in L.A., but, alas, they have now all closed. (Anyone from Val's, Toluca Lake, Fama, Russell's, the Wave, - hello, and...what the heck is the word called????)
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Oddly enough, even in the magnificent language of Descartes, there is no term that has been recognized by the Academie Francaise to describe what the English and Americans call "a palate cleanser".
The Daniel speaks in mysterious ways.
We all know that there is *much* life and many words dehors l'Academie.
It is just odd to me that this word was used so much in the restaurants I've worked in, and it is not screaming out...
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Safe to say: The Daniel has spoken ... his words are, as always, unimpeachable and ring true to anyone who knows their food ... much appreciated as always .. now about those Parisian or Lyonnaise ladies of the night ...
Well, that may be, and given the preponderance of evidence, I have rendered up my sword. But as Carrot Top has alluded, there is a word out there - my wife shares my nagging thought, as we both worked in restaurants where the word was used - myself, in Los Angeles and Chicago, herself, in Chicago. The frequency with which it was used, and the fact I used it myself in my menus, makes it all the more troubling.
I will continue to mole under the surface, and return, like the Hohenstauffen, with a monumental "AHA!"
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I am now totally flabbergasted, as this word was in such common usage that it should be leaping off the page at me...
Well then, it might be a case of mass hallucination or something of the sort, for I *still* think there is a word such as you describe, as does Mark.
But that may be just because of your persuasiveness. I dunno.
I still expect that sometime, maybe several months from now, the word will just jump into my mind. It is definitely in hiding at the moment, for sure.
Till then,
I'm off to take some Ginko Biloba,
Hahahah - you and me both, Carrot. I used it on my menus, even - and am starting to get scared.
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The correct term is entremets du palatine but that has not been in use since the 16th century, current practice being simply to serve the sorbet between the first and the main course. Oddly enough, even in the magnificent language of Descartes, there is no term that has been recognized by the Academie Francaise to describe what the English and Americans call "a palate cleanser".
As to the difference between amuse bouche and amuse geule, simply ask any Parisian or Lyonnaise lady of the night. For many years the two terms were used interchangeably until it suddenly dawned on French chefs that the amuse geule had come to be synonymous with "une pipe". Should anyone not know what "une pipe" is best to send me a private message.
On that smiling note....
Hahaha. Well, on this note, I will yield, and enjoyably so. Thank you, Daniel, Gifted, Racheld, everyone. I may have just been on a complete brain warp - I hope this doesn't augur future forgetfulness.
Thanks again, everyone.
Paul
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I suggest PMing eGulleter Daniel Rogov. He has probably forgotten more than most of us will ever know of such matters.
Thanks. I will.
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Actually, this did come up originally - and I was almost certain it was the word. However, My wife, who is similarly consternated, said it was not. But releve - "remove" - is used. See Food Courses - see under "France".
Racheld, thanks - this may be the one I was thinking of. I am now totally flabbergasted, as this word was in such common usage that it should be leaping off the page at me...
Not intermezzo - French for _________?
in Cooking
Posted · Edited by paul o' vendange (log)
Undoubtedly, not in common usage (except, apparently, in my peculiar circle). However,
Relevé food course.