caroline

Hi Karen, You've clearly had years of experience in Hawaii. Would you care to share what you're doing now? and why you've stuck it out in Hawaii in spite of what seem to have been many trials and tribulations? Rachel

Hi, those of you at Little Blue House. Sounds like the bread you make is great. But it sounds as if the KCC facility is a new-style farmers' market catering to haole tastes. The older ones in the center of Honolulu mainly catered to Filipinos, Southeast Asians, and some Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Indians etc. I think they're still going, right? They have a mind blowing selection of vegetables and pretty good fruits but not in the Western tradition, Rachel

Hi Sun-Ki, Replying to your report on the Hawaii food pages. What is your take on this farmers' market plan? It's wonderful that Hawaii sees the possibility of marketing its extraordinary variety of food resources. But are the new markets going to include all the wonderful things in the current farmers' markets and Chinatown? Or are we going to see a repeat of the two-tier system of HRC and plate lunch places, this time with the new farmers' market (strawberries and lettuce) for tourists and the well heeled and the and the old ones (kamias and ong choy) for the rest? Rachel

Oh boy, oh boy, this needs to be said Russ, Cheers, Rachel

Irwin, Thanks so much for the information on how plate lunches were done for civilian workers with the military. Salisbury Steak. Container loads of it. Fascinating. You are filling in more of the history of Hawaii's foods than I ever dreamt possible. We have to find some way that people in Hawaii can learn all this, Rachel

Chef Fowke, It's a great question and one that most of us who were not born and raised in the Islands ask ourselves. I'd always assumed that you could just pluck fruit from the trees on Pacific Islands. But the fact is that Hawaii had NOTHING to eat when the first Hawaiians arrived (not quite true, a couple of berries high in the mountains, fiddle head ferns, flightless birds, seaweed and reef fish which are mainly tiny and bony (think angel fish). It was not that easy to catch the big offshore fish such as tuna most of the year even for seamen as skilled as the Hawaiians . Luckily the Hawaiians brought a dozen or so plants, many of them for food, and so added taro leaves and stems to the green veg list. But theirs' was never a culture with a lot of fruit and veg. Now with other immigrant groups you can get an amazing range of fruit and veg in Hawaii. The Farmers' Markets are a wonderful source and even the grocery stores have items unheard of or rare on the menu. But incorporating new fruits and veg into diets takes a lot of learning and time. And it's helpful to remember that our own passion for fruit and veg dates from the 20s or 30s when vitamins were discovered. Before that, in most parts of the world, food that really filled you up and gave you energy (that is proteins and carbohydrates) was the most desired. Still is, actually. That doesn't give a full answer to why the plate lunch is popular but perhaps it helps with the fruits and veg part, Cheers, Rachel

Hi Russ, Great to have you to answer some of our questions. Would you care to comment on where you see food/living pages going? Do readers want to continue with the traditional fare? Or do they want a shift towards new emphases? What is the reaction, for example, to your own introduction of food science into understanding cooking techniques? Is the kind of reporting on mad cow disease that Emily Green did for the Independent before she joined you likely to make it to food pages in the future? Thanks for your thoughts, Rachel

I suspect the Dr Sasso you're talking about is Mike Saso in Religion. He never published on Hawaii's food at least to my knowledge but is (among many other things) autor of A Taoist Cookbook, a highly informed book based on his own experiences in China, Rachel

OK, I'm going to jump in the deep end. I'm gong to down a scotch and I'm going to throw any claim to taste or discretion to the winds. And I'm going to cheer on Rick Bayless and his Burger King venture. Of course, let me hasten to say, I never eat at fast food chains (oh don't we all say that)? I'm a burger loather and it doesn't matter whether they are lovingly cooked over a grill or churned out in the millions by a chain. I'm a terrific home cook (to boast a bit but I need all the credit I can get) and have a repertoire honed on five continents. I'm not likely to encounter Rick's sandwich soon. I live in Mexico amd McDonald's McNificos has only just hit, so it'll be a while before Rick's sandwich gets here. And I've never met Rick in my life. But enough of an apologia and on to the substance. Let's start slow. That photo. It's not styled and let's be grateful for that. But what induces the horror? I must be missing something. A piece of bread, a grilled chicken breast and some veg admittedly a bit messily distributed. My mouth doesn't water but neither does my stomach churn. That's the least of it though. There's the mega-question. Where does food go in the twenty first century? Is the Chef's Cooperative spearheading culinary change? I don't think so. Here's an alternative story and an alternative moral. The story is simple. In the twentieth century there was a quite extraordinary culinary revolution. For the first time in about 5000 years, the poor (at least in the west) could eat basically the same things as the rich. They could eat white bread, meat, gravy, cake, cookies and fruit. Something utterly new. Something that came with democracy. And something that was so difficult to achieve that it transformed world financial institutions, world transport, world business organizations, world agriculture. And to say this was forced on people by corporations, capitalism etc won't wash. People voted with their mouths. And they voted for this food. Indeed most of us would not be on egullet chatting about food if this revolution had not occurred. We'd be eating porridge or kasha or polenta, praying that we could scrape by from day to day. But guess what? The revolution left women in the kitchen. They were the ones who had to make the family meals with their roasts and gravies and cakes. The second stage of the revolution has to be to allow the freedom to all women (or all families) that the rich have always had. The freedom from food preparation. That's what the fast food chains have started to offer. OK OK, often it's horrid. But it's better than what went before. And more important it doesn't divide rich and poor. It's a start. Rome wasn't built in a day. So the mega question for the twenty first century is the delivery of ready-to-eat food. Not easy. "The best is the enemy of the good" goes the old saw. The good may have been what Rick B was groping toward. Certainly just diddling about with foams is not going to deal with the mega culinary question of the twentieth century. If culinary leaders continue to sniff at fast food chains they will become irrelevant to the mega culinary question of the twenty first century. Rick Bayless, if he contines this track, won't be irrelevant. Sneered at, derided, run out of the Chef's Cooperative perhaps. But not irrelevant. And that Scotch that's given me courage--hand crafted by Domecq I think, Down the tubes, Rachel

Irwin, Your insights and experience continue to amaze me. Here's another topic perhaps you could expand on a little. You mention food service personnel. Would you care to comment on the problems of getting good personnel at resort hotels particularly on the outer islands. These are often remote from centers of population and have to be housed specially around the hotels. Or else they have to be shifted from other jobs into restaurant work as happened when the Lanai hotels opened. Did you encounter this in your time in Hawaii? Many thanks, Rachel

The thread on the future of restaurants in Hawaii has produced a blitz of postings about the healthfulness of the diet of the people in Hawaii (and in the South Pacific too). When I lived in Hawaii it seemed to me that this was a very tangled question. Different groups had different problems. Historically it was until the last fifty years or so difficult to get the kinds of foods that were thought of as healthy on the mainland. And besides many people did not (and still do not) want those kinds of foods. And I have to admit that I was very impressed with the high life expectancy of many people who lived in Hawaii. Seems a very nuanced approach is needed. I'd love to hear more, Rachel

Karen, Your passionate interest in the health of people in Hawaii is impressive. Sounds like you were born and raised there? This is clearly an important topic so perhaps we could start a new thread? I'll do it right now. Because it really deserves a space apart from the issue of restaurants in Hawaii, Cheers, Rachel

Irwin, I've really learnt a lot from your posts on this thread and on the one on Hawaii restaurants too. Can you bear another couple of questions? Did the military have any connection with or influence on the plate lunch? I've read that on the mainland lunch wagons were set up around military bases in World War II and after. Was that the pattern in Hawaii too? And if what did they serve? And how many caterers were supplying the plate lunch scene in the 60s and 70s? Were any others, like you, involved in other aspects of the food business? Sounds like the movers and shakers in Hawaiian food were quite few. Oh I wish I had been able to go to Lisboa. Good luck with your new venture. And thanks so much for posting, Rachel

Yes, Irwin, please tell us more. Hawaii was one of the first places to stretch the McDonald's formula I believe and it would be great to have a sense of what was involved, Rachel

Yes, Irwin, please tell us more. Hawaii was one of the first places to stretch the McDonald's formula I believe and it would be great to have a sense of what was involved, Rachel

Sun-Ki, I agree entirely about the potential for cross-fertilization between plate lunches and HRC. Perhaps romantically I believe that this kind of interchange has been one of the main driving forces for many of the regional cuisines we admire. I do however doubt that in the short term mid-range restaurants can survive on local food alone. And Tad I agree that there are societies where people are prepared to pay to eat out. The Chinese would be an obvious choice. But (and you guys know more about this than I do) I've always had the impression that Chinese restaurants in the mid-range and above serve something different from what is had at home. I am pretty sure that was true of French restaurants in France in the 70s and 80s when I still ate out in that part of the world. But I'm not restaurateur. Others know this territory much better than I do, Rachel

Agree with Tremors. Kamaiiana rates really didn't help. And public transport didn't get you close to all those great food places you really wanted to see. It was cheaper to spend a week with our kids in SF than to go to a neighbor island, Rachel

Hi Sun-Ki and Food Zealot, I love this thread. And because I'd love some of Hawaii's food to get some recognition, here's my two cents worth. My question is this. Can you get a mid/range restaurant going that caters primarily to locals. I don't think this is just a Hawaii question. Now that I live in Mexico, I find a multitude of comida corrida or quick midday meal places. Just like plate lunch places these are mom -n pop operations offering pretty good food at a great value. Probably the closest thing to Mexican home cooking. Trouble is, no one is going to pay more to eat this food. Eating out is a treat so you go to an upmarket continental restaurant, or to an ethnic restaurant, or to an Amercian restaurant. Actually eating out on your own food at a high price is a really weird idea when you think about it. That's not so strange. Most of us don't go out to eat what we cook at home. Even in France most regional restaurants cater to the tourist trade. And Boston hasn't yet learnt how to do this, so there's no way to get baked beans and cod cakes in Boston. So my sense is you are stuck with the tourist trade as your best option. But how that trade loves to discover the authentic. You could go much more authentic than HRC. And if that happened then locals would flock in to see what they were missing. Hope this doesn-t sound too cynical, Rachel

All very interesting questions. The problem is that our written sources for pre-hispanic food are so terribly limited. They are mainly Spanish reports obtained from elite informants who probably had little direct knowledge of the kitchen. Maybe as archaeologists get residue analysis etc cheaper and speedier, we'll get more information from archaeological remains, Rachel

I second the recommendation of Nancy Zavlasky's book. She's particularly good on low end food. Street food has already been mentioned. Carnitas are heaven, so is barbacoa or birria. For a meal that is often surprising good for about 3 or 4 dollars and a real slice of Mexican life, try the comida corrida offered by hundreds of small restaurants at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. It's usually home-cooked and will consist of a wet soup (usually a crema which is a cream of vegetable soup without cream), a dry soup (usually rice or thin noodles), a small meat dish (chicken in some kind of sauce, stuffed chiles, etc), and a small dessert (flan, flan and flan again, or gelatina or canned guavas or such). Look for where office workers or government workers are pouring in. Sanborns everywhere offers middle of the road food but it's where you can find BOOKS and MAGAZINES and MAPS. And it's a place to observe the ladies who lunch (actually almorzar, the big late breakfast) and the men who power breakfast. Another slice of Mexican life. The restaurants that you will find under the arcades in every colonial town square tend to be relatively expensive and relatively bad though of course they're great for people watching. Shopping malls (I know, you're not coming to Mexico for shopping malls but they too are part of Mexican life) usually have their food courts which offer a fascinating glimpse into what is fashionable among the young as far as foreign food is concerned and very often an excellent Mexican stand offered such standbys as chicharron en salsa rojo or verde, carne de res en salsa de chile pasilla, nopales, rajas de chile poblano plus tortillas or bread and a safe agua fresca (fresh fruit drink) for 4 or 5 dollars. Bakeries turn out great rolls and empanadas though their sweet goods are not so attractive to UK tastes. Many town squares have their fresh nieves made that morning in an astonishing range of flavors. I have my doubts about the water but haven't had a problem yet. High end restaurants are tucked away everywhere often not easily visible. Many, of course, don't serve Mexican food. Argentinian (ie steak house), Italian, and Japanese are favorites. Those that do serve Mexican food are often lovely places to while away an afternoon with good service and delightful surroundings (fountains, lawns, peacocks, etc etc). Guanajuato's not the best town for food as its inhabitants readily admit. The best high end restaurant is Nicole's owned by a French woman who's lived here for years. The NY Times described it as "stylized Mexican food" and not like the tacquerias in the US. One more count against the NYT I'd say. Mexico City has great restaurants. Traditionally Mexico was not a restaurant culture and the restaurants were largely foreign ones so I won't mention those. But new Mexican ones appear all the time. I know those in the south best and it's well worth visiting Coyoacan and San Angel. The venerable San Angel Inn, although some people say it's not what it once was, is so lovely that it's worth it. There's a similar place in Tlalpan but the name escapes me for a minute. And a less expensive place on the main square in San Angel a great center for exploring this lovely old colonial village. In the center, several chefs have opened restaurants in the last few years promoting New Mexican or Traditional Mexican cooking. Have a great time, Rachel

ExtraMsg, My experience in Hawaii was that the flights to neighbor islands were pretty cheap. But unless you had relatives, the killer was to add in car rental and hotel. Then we could fly to the mainland for that. So for us a neighbor island weekend was a very expensive treat. But then we weren't locals with an extended family network, Rachel

Sun-Ki, three cheers for starting this thread. It wasn't where I would have expected to find it or I'd have been egging you on from the start. Just in case anyone's wondering, this whole business of glottal stops and diacriticals is not some weird scholasticism on Sun-Ki's part. As he says, he is following standard usage in the Islands. And the usage is not irrelevant to food because food (like the diacritical issue) is one strategy for negotiating your way through a cultural mix that is, well, to say the least, quite unlike anything seen on the mainland. So looking forward to lots of posts from alanamoana, kimo, foodzealot, a-nomad et al. Oh and are you going to include Honolulu Magazine, Sun-Ki, Rachel

Lots to think about. For now I'll just concentrate on Sun-Ki's post (and forgive me, I don't seem to be abe to get the quote key working as it should). I agree that nut thickening is Moorish and probably of Persian origin. I don't know of other traditions that use nut-thickening on a regular basis. And I also agree that

My guess is that, like maize, they went both ways. In any case they went like lightening. I wouldn't be blown away with suprize if one day ethnobotanists or archaeologists confirmed some cross-Pacific connections before the Spanish. But that would be pretty hard to establish, Rachel

So what, if anything, is the India-Mexico connection that so many of us think we perceive? My guess is that there's clearly an Atlantic connection. There may be a rather different Pacific connection. The Atlantic connection is not one of influence but of membership in a family of cuisines. They all descended from what you might call the Perso-Islamic cuisine that was created for the rich between the 8th and 13th centuries in cities such as Cairo, Damascus and, above all, Baghdad. Although there were lots of regional variations, certain common patterns can be seen: A preference for rice and white bread over other possible starches. The rice was usually cooked pilau/pilaf style by first sauteeing in fat or oil and then adding an aromatic liquid. It was often a main dish rather than an accompaniment. The bread was often leavened to some extent or other. A preference for the flesh of lamb and goat. This was frequently stewed or simmered, often manipulated by grinding, pounding etc. A repertoire of sauces aromatized by nuts, spices or herbs, thickened by the same plus bread, and quite often soured using citrus or other fruits or vegetables (but usually not vinegar). A passion for working out ways of using cane sugar very often in connection with fruits, sometimes with nuts or vegetables. Think lightly sweetened fruit drinks, syrups, jams, pastes, and confections (with an elaborate technical terminology that goes right across the region). An enthusiasm for fine and novel fruits and vegetables which were traded, smuggled and stolen across the region. From the eighth century on, the "Moors" established a version of this cuisine in Spain where it was elaborated for centuries. With the Reconquista that also went on for centuries and only finally ended when the last Moors capitulated in 1492 (big year) it was eventually christianized (pork, wine, etc.) to what I'm inclined to call Hapsburg Cuisine after the family that controlled most of South Europe and a good bit of the north too. Charles V, the most thrusting of the Hapsburg monarchs, was the ruler to whom Cortez reported. And it was the cuisine that went to Mexico. And in India, a series of merchants, missionaries and invaders established outposts of Perso-Islamic cuisine from the eighth century on. This series of incursions culminated with the Mughals who arrived from Central Asia via Persia at exactly the same moment that Cortez was marching across the central valley of Mexico. The various Mughal emperors established their version of the cuisine in northern India, albeit with some modifications to local circumstances. So, I think, pilaus in India and sopa secas in Mexico, "curries" in India and adobos, moles, etc in Mexico, sharbats etc in India and aguas frescas in Mexico. Subsequently many of the cuisines between Mexico and India changed more dramatically than those at the two ends of this culinary belt. Spain and Italy adopted more elements from northern Europe than Mexico ever did. The Ottomans who had the same roots as the Mughals never adopted Perso-Islamic cuisine to the extent that the Mughals did so that they transformed the cuisine of the eastern Mediterranean in a different way. And Iran and Iraq? They seem to be pretty much black holes where later culinary history is concerned. The Pacific connection is more speculative. Cross Pacific trade between Manila and Acapulco began in the late sixteenth century (at least as far as the Spanish were concerned) and as Sun-Ki has pointed out, the Filipino scholar (one-woman dynamo might be a better description), Doreen Fernández, traced lots of food connections between the Philippines and Mexico. We also know that Mexico adopted Asian pottery making techniques, imported silkworms and set up a silk industry (resbozos) etc. So a lot was going on. And Manila was a hub of trade in Southeast Asia at the time and Indian merchants were a major force. In Mexico the so-called China Poblana (Chino or China being a generic word for Asian, Poblano for the city of Puebla where she lived a distinguished life) is an emblematic figure even today. It seems she was a girl from a Hindu family from South India, a region that had evolved elaborate cuisines in palaces and temples. She might have been too young on arrival to have influenced the food of Puebla. But if she arrived, why not a fair number of others from her region? And it is crystal clear from culinary history that you don't need a mass migration to effect change. A few key individuals can do it. This is an embarassingly superficial take on about a thousand year history so please do point out all the flaws! Rachel