slkinsey

I find it highly suspect that Bayless, the guiding light of the Chefs Collaborative and the primary author of their Statement of Principles, was not fully aware of which principles he was violating. Further, we're not talking science here, we're talking philosophical outlook. But, if you want to make a scientific comparison, if a famous scientist makes a certain assertion (say, that the earth is flat) which he later discovers, realizes or is convinced is no longer the case, he generally comes out and says: "Hey guys... remember all that flat earth stuff I was saying before? Total hogwash. Forget I said anything. In fact, let me lay some cool papers on you I wrote showing why I think it's spherical. You'll really dig it, and I want everyone to know it's spherical." The scientist is only a liar and a hypocrite if he takes money from the Spherical Earth Foundation to endorse their position when he actually still thinks it's flat. Yes, much of this I would agree with. I can't say that I support the characterization of him as nothing more than a money-grubbing sellout -- it's not fair to what he has done and will likely continue to do. That said, this would seem to be an absolutely incredible change of heart, and one that entirely contravenes many, if not most of his previously promoted philosophies. The fact that it involved a buttload of money, the fact that he was entirely uninvolved in the development of the sandwich or the sourcing of the ingredients, the ham-handed and slightly disingenuous way he handled the "contribution" of his fee to the Frontera Foundation and the feelings of incredulous disillusionment from those who had eagerly bought into his former (and now incompatible) philosophies combined to produce these fairly predictable responses. I think that Bayless' (perhaps former) followers have every right to feel angered and betrayed by his betrayal of the very principles he influenced them to believe in. However, as I said, people sometimes change their minds -- even evangelistic public figures like Bayless. When this happens, it is incumbent upon that public person to revise his earlier positions in public. Usually this is not an issue because the freshly-enlightened evangelist is champing at the bit to pass on his new message to the masses. The fact is, however, that this hasn't happened. Bayless has not come out to say that he no longer believes in the principles of the Chefs Collaborative and has found a better way... nor has he revised any of his previous positions... nor has he made any public statement of substance about the whole thing. This has had the effect of making him look like a hypocrite (which conclusion seems inescapable at this point) who did it for the money or maybe for the fame. The fact may very well be that his core beliefs haven't changed a bit. People betray their principles for money and fame all the time, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they threw away those principles for good. But, as someone who held himself up to the masses and popularized certain principles, there is time to be spent in the stocks when those same principles are betrayed. I think that would be a misapprehension if there are those who get that impression from this thread. Most of the people who have participated here have remarked that Bayless is a talented chef who has done much to further valuable core philosophies and who will likely continue to do so, despite the fact that he has likely forever traded away some of his credibility as an evangelist. But, the fact remains that the evidence we have before us does point to Bayless in this matter being a hypocrite and a sellout who traded in, or at least temporarily rented his principles for money and fame. Bayless is nothing if not media-savvy, and he is certainly aware of the things that are being been said about him. I have a hard time believing that we wouldn't already know about it had he, in fact, had a genuine change of heart that lead to his acceptance of BK's endorsement offer. No doubt, should he come forward and popularize such a philosophy in the future, you will see many people whose opinions of him are changed. I will be one of those people.

i'll tell you what. let rick shit on his values. then you can shit on him for shitting on his values. then i'll shit on you for shitting on rick's values. then you can shit on me for shitting on you for shitting on rick for shitting on his values. who wants to be on top of the pile? dude, aside from that giant eyeball, which totally freaks me out, i 'll listen to you and take you at your word. what i won't do is denounce you because i don't get where you're coming from. I'm sorry, but I am barely to discern what you are getting at here. I'm not saying this as a snide remark, honestly. Perhaps you could clarify. You won't denounce me because you don't know where I'm coming from? Does this need a comma, as in: "what i won't do is denounce you, because i don't get where you're coming from" (i.e., you won't denounce me, and the reason you won't denounce me is that you don't know where I'm coming from" or are you saying that you won't denounce me simply because you don't know where I am coming from? Either way, I fail to see how this applies to Bayless? We know exactly where he's coming from, because he has written, spoken and publicized exactly that. That's one difference between me and Bayless. Another difference is that Bayless is a public figure in this context and I am not.

No, it isn't.

I think the argument can be made that the life of a duck or goose raised for foie is substantially better than the life of the average chicken raised for human consmuption. I know a number of people who have toured Hudson Valley or other such farms, and they unequivocally report that the ducks run over to the feeder and practically stand in line to be "force fed."

You know, several people have been taking the position that we have "no right to judge Bayless" on this matter. And I have to say that I simply don't understand that. If, say, I took $250k to endorse Burger King I'd say people here who hadn't been in that position have little right to judge me. Bayless is a different kind of case. He put himself in this position, up on a pedestal, which is something I haven't done. As a public person on a pedestal of his own making, he opens himself up to public accountability and also to public criticism. I have in the past described Bayless as an "evangelist" for his philosophies, and I think the allusion is an apt one. To use your example of infidelity: this is something that most people have been involved in to one degree or another over the course of a lifetime of relationships. I certainly would not seek to condemn someone based on an infidelity. However, if a moral evangelist who preaches to the public against infidelity is involved in an infidelity himself, that is a different story. He who proclaims a higher standard is in turn accountable to that higher standard. This man would be fair game for public censure over his infidelities. Bayless is one such person, and if he is being judged, he is weighed on scales of his own making. As I said earlier, if he didn't want to be the figurehead of a reformation he shouldn't have nailed those theses to the door. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to form the Chefs Collaborative or use his popularity as a pulpit to preach his culinary gospel. He reaped the rewards of that advocacy, and now he is reaping a different kind of reward from the same flock he once sought to lead. I, for one, find it objectionable that we should be excoriated for judging Bayless using the same principles he used to separate the good from the bad for so long.

We may or may not agree on whether or not they are "advancements," but that does not seem to me germane in this case. The question is whether these things promote: sustainable food choices (no) responsible agricultural growing techniques (no) the impact of food choices on the environment (no) the advantages of locally grown and seasonally fresh foods (no) That's 0 for 4 on the Chefs Collaborative Mission Statement, and I don't see a lot of wiggle room for differences of interpretation here. In fact, one could make the case (and I have been) that Burger King's business and culinary practices are in direct opposition to these goals.

I don't know how selective it is. Missions are quite different from principles. Their mission statement says what they will do and how they will do it. The principles speak of the goals. As I read it, the Statement of Principles is an integral part of their Mission Statement. The link to that page says "Mission & Principles" and I don't think they make any indication that the two are anything but inextricably linked. Indeed the "Charter Preamble" says: If you read about their history, you will see that "a group of chefs -- including Rick Bayless, Nora Pouillon, Alice Waters, Jimmy Schmidt, Tim Keating, Robert Del Grande, Larry Forgione, John Ash, Paul Prudhomme, Madhur Jaffrey, Zarela Martinez, Nobu Matsuhisa, Michael Romano, and Roy Yamaguchi -- spent a full day developing the Collaborative's Statement of Principles. (Emphasis mine.)" I would also suggest that Bayless' endorsement of Burger King does not seek to nor substantially "advance and promote among chefs and the general public concepts and benefits of good, safe, and wholesome foods, including sustainable food choices, responsible agricultural growing techniques, the impact of food choices on the environment, and the advantages of locally grown and seasonally fresh foods, and to provide educational and other programs fostering such concepts and benefits."

And what are we, chopped liver? Edited to add: Welcome to eGullet, pork. You are one of our favorite meats. I think I can speak for many of us when I say that we'd be delighted to welcome your girlfriend into the fold as well.

ExtraMSG, if it is primarily the tenor and language of AB's remark that offends, I would suggest that our estimable Site Manager Steve Klc's approach as detailed above is a more productive path than responding in kind. As for the Mission of Chefs Collaborative, I think you have done a little selective quoting. BK's business and culinary practices are clearly inimical to points four through eight in their Statement Of Principles, in my mind.

The fact remains, however, that the business and culinary practices of Burger King are fundamentally at odds with most of his previously stated principles and goals. It's like PETA endorsing a furrier for developing a fur coat that uses 50% less fur because it's a "step in the right direction." The fact would remain that the furrier still kills animals and makes luxury clothing out of their pelts, and that this practice is inimical to the stated goals of PETA. This doesn't strike me as being too hard to understand. Bayless has said that he supports X, Y and Z and thinks that A, B, and C are terrible things. Burger King does A, B and C as well as E, F and G which serve to diminish X, Y and Z. Bayless is now endorsing Burger King for doing a little less of A. There is no way Burger King's practices are going to lead down the path to X, Y and Z unless they fundamentally change those practices. I, and others, would suggest that taking their money and patting them on the back isn't really the way to achieve these goals. Again, if Bayless had worked with BK on sourcing the ingredients for and developing the recipe for this sandwich, most of us would feel differently. You seem to be upset that everyone isn't giving Bayless "the benefit of doubt" and taking his explanations at face value. Well, we don't owe him that. The man is a public figure, a politician and an evangelist in addition to being a chef. He has been well aware of the impact his various proclamations have had, and it is right that he should he judged by them. If he didn't want to start a reformation, he shouldn't have nailed all those theses to the door. Again, if Bayless' views have changed so radically, that's fine. People sometimes "see the light" and change their minds. But, as a public figure, a politician and an evangelist he is responsible for making a public revision of his previously stated goals and philosophies -- many of which are fundamentally at odds with the business and culinary practices of the company he now endorses. Part of that process must be, in my opinion, resigning from the Chef's Collaborative and stating his philocophical and political reasons for so doing -- i.e., explaining how his views have changed and why he no longer fully supports the positions held and promoted by that organization.

The only things one can use as a basis to "judge" Bayless' intentions and principles are his own statements, and it strikes me as perfectly legitimate to make such judgments. If, in fact, Bayless has truly changed his mind about things and believes that the best course to achieve his goals is to go the BK route, then it is incumbent upon him to go back and revise his earlier positions. In so doing, he should resign from the Chef's Collaborative, whose stated goals are at direct odds with the business and culinary practices of Burger King.

For me the coffee experiences were aslways in Europe -- mostly Austria and Italy. I always thought I didn't like coffee until I spent a lot of time over there and figured out I just don't like American coffee.

I'll have to swing into one of these places when I'm down there in a few weeks. FoodMan, I have to second your thoughts on Churrascos. I always thought it was a nice place and a good value. Great Tres Leches!

Why get angry at the company if this is a real belief of theirs? The assumption here, I think, is that this is not a real belief of W-S, but rather what they see as a pragmatic response to something that they fear might generate negative publicity for the company. This is substantially different from taking a moral stand on foue gras. While we don't have any conclusive evidence as to the reasoning behind Williams-Sonoma's decision, I have to believe that they would have responded to our email inquiries to that effect had it been a moral issue for them. Therefore, I think we can reasonably assume that the company knuckled under to pressure from activist groups.

I'd also like to take a moment to say: kudos to the Post for crediting eGullet as a source and giving us the mentions.

Exactly! It's a huge pain in the ass, and you can't taste the spinach anyway. I've also never been a big fan of flavored pastas, because 9 times out of 10 you can't taste the flavoring in the pasta anyway (and when you can, you often wish you hadn't). I went to a lot of trouble one time to make "gremolata flavored" pasta alla chitarra that I served with sugo di osso buco (riffing on the whole gremolata with osso buco thing). Couldn't taste the gremolata at all. Would have been much more effective to simply dress the pasta with the osso buco sauce and sprinkle gremolata over it.

I have had good results freezing fresh egg pasta in "nidi." That said, it doesn't keep indefinitely in the freezer. It seems to dry out over time, and it's easy to break by knocking something into it while it's frozen.

In order for something like that to work, the "penalty" for allowing smoking has to be large enough that establishments will only choose that path if it is absolutely vital to their business. The whole point of a ban is to prevent smoking in the vast majority of such extablishments. Any exemption, licensing or tax scheme would have to be constructed in such a way that only a very small minority would ever choose, or be eligable for that option. That said, I have no idea whether a 15% tax break is large enough to incent the majority of bars and restaurants to disallow smoking. People in the restaurant biz could give a better idea about that. Personally, I am higher on the idea of charging restaurants for smoking rather than rewarding restaurants for not smoking. A 15% tax break may be little incentive to change for smoking bar that makes decent money at the current tax rate, whereas a 15% increase in the tax rate (or a similar fee) would likely be a good incentive to change.

Thanks for the tip! It is very hard to evaluate differences between lines of enameled cast iron. So much of it is tied up in the integrity of the enamel coating -- how many layers, how applied, chip, crack and stain resistance, etc. In re to your quest for an browning/braising/deep frying vessel... both an enameled cast iron casserole and a disk-bottom rondeau would work very well. The enameled cast iron is definitely best for low/slow braising, but is not great for browning meats and vegetables and probably not as versatile as the rondeau. Either one would be a good choice. It all depends on what you're looking for.

Adam - Just saw the class, as I was overtaken with holiday preparations when it posted. Wolderfully written and most informative! I have some half-formed questions for you, but need to give your article another read first.

I have made this suggestion before on similar threads, but here goes: a cheap/superior alternative to a pizza stone is to measure the base of your (gas) stove, then go to your local supplier of building stone and get them to cut you a piece of soapstone that is ~1" smaller in width and depth. Huge heat sink. Can't be beat for pizza.

Cool. Although I still feel compelled to note that Sheboygan is the Mecca of bratwurst. Every time I've been there, I am too stuffed from trying to do a comprehensive 'wurst survey to even think about eating anything else.

According to CNN, there were 45,000 attendees at the GOP Convention in Philadelphia, 15,000 media types and 20,000 protesters. Okay, this tells us something interesting about the potential economic impact of the boat. According to my earlier summary: At the present time, there are 280 Republicans in Congress (229 in the House and 51 in the Senate). That's a very small number of people compared to 45,000. The boat itself has a maximum capacity of 2,240 -- enough room for each Republican member of Congress to bring 7 guests there. At maxium capacity, we're talking about 5% of the convention attendees. In light of this, the boat doesn't seem like so much of a big deal in terms of real economic impact, but it still sends a message.

Try Bridge Kitcheware, Zabar's or Broadway Panhandler. What is your idea of "cheap?" BTW, depending on what you want to cook on it, I don't like AB's idea. You don't want to be sliding a wet pizza crust onto a bunch of quarry tiles and have them slide apart or have some of the crust stick in the cracks between tiles.

Administrative note: As mentioned upthread, it is not the mission of eGullet to talk politics. We are here to talk about subjects relating to food and the food business. As a result, we are keeping a close eye on this thread and deleting any posts that move in a direction substantially away from those core subjects, or which contain unreasonably political or partesan language. It is, of course, impossible to divorce this discussion entirely from politics due to the nature of the entities and individuals involved. We thought this was an interesting, relevant and important topic for discussion. As a result we have allowed a series of initial posts to stand at the top of this thread, despite containing some overly political references and language, in order to frame the discussion. At this time, discussion here has reached a point of development where those remarks are no longer needed in that capacity, and they have been removed from the top of the thread. We hope we can continue to discuss this topic within the context of eGullet's mission to serve as a forum for food, food-business and related discussion. There would seem to be plenty do talk about here within that framework. We will continue to monitor this thread closely and will remove any posts that contain overtly political language and/or trolls, and those which do not address food and the food business. If keeping this thread in line proves too burdensome from an administrative standpoint, we'll send in the ferrets and lock it to further discussion.