slkinsey
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It also strikes me that, while I'm not entirely sure what parts of the carcass are judged for the USDA grading, I have the feeling that it doesn't necessarily follow that prime chuck has more fat and better marbling than choice chuck. This idea is reinforced by the Wikipedia information on beef grading, which says: "The grades are based on two main criteria, the degree of marbling (intramuscular fat) in the beef rib eye and the age of the animal prior to slaughter." I'm not sure what the quality of the rib eye says about the quality of the chuck, but it's clear to me that there are cases in animals where the distribution of body fat is not even. Just look at humans: some have lots of fat in the stomach and practically none in the legs, and some have a more or less even distribution of fat. If you're "grading" humans according to an examination of the lower torso, it seems clear that there can still be wide differences in the amount of fat in, e.g., the lower leg.
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...it's the fat in meat that melts during cooking and breaks down the connective tissue in it, so it does make sense that a fatty piece of meat would yeild better results...
According to my understanding, this is not correct. When we speak of "connective tissue" in this context, we are talking about collagen, which with the addition of heat, time and a few water molecules, is hydrolyzed into gelatin. As far as I know, fat doesn't have anything to do with this reaction. Fat is important, however, as I'll get to down below...
I'm sure we have plenty of folks around here who can dig deeper into the science of it, but if the meat is dry it's usually because it's overcooked -- you can braise for too long and that's what happens.Any time you braise, you're playing a kind of balancing game. You want to cook the meat long enough to convert the collagen into gelatin. This makes the meat tender, and also provides that unctuous, silken texture that can be so wonderful about braised meats. Gelatin also does a good job of holding moisture, which is important. It's important because cooking meat at braising times/temperatures also has the effect of squeezing water out of muscle fibers. This is also known as "making the meat dry." If there's a good amount of fat in the meat, that's good too. You want to melt that fat to provide additional lubrication to make up for the water that the muscle fibers have given up.
If the meat is cooked too long, the lubricating properties of the collagen and fat simply cannot keep up with the drying effect as more and more water is lost from the muscle fibers and the result is dry, mealy meat.
There are several things you can do:
First, you can cook the meat at a low temperature. Collagen will convert into gelatin at lower-than-simmering temperatures, it just takes a lot longer. The nice thing is that you don't go over the temperature at which muscle fibers lose most of their water. Long time/low temperature sous vide techniques take advantage of this. The drawback is that it can take up to 48 hours. Second, you can start out the braise at a low temperature for a few hours. If you carefully manage the pot and keep the meat at around 115F/45C for a few hours, you can reduce the amount of time the meat needs to spend at 180F/80C. Finally, once you get the pot up to finishing temperature, stop the cooking as soon as the meat is tender. It won't improve at all once it reaches this point.
As for whether prime beef makes a difference... that's hard to say. Just thinking about it objectively, it's hard to see how the things that make beef "prime" would make a big difference in a braise. I'd think that flavorful braising beef would be from well-worked muscles with lots of connective tissue, which doesn't seem like a "prime" thing. On the other hand, it's clear that not all braising meat is created equal. I've made the exact same beef tagine with supermarket-grade chuck from Fairway and with high-quality chuck from Oppenheimer Meats. The Oppenheimer beef produced a much better tagine. Whether this was prime beef, I couldn't say.
So, my own experience is that the quality of the meat does make a difference (albeit probably not as much difference as technique). I also think that the "prime" designation is not important and that there are other indicators one can look for in selecting a braising cut.
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Seems like a pointless and needlessly overcomplicated practice to me, the kind of fetishization of a piece of culture that seems somewhat peculiar to the Japanese zeitgeist (as does the so-called "hard shake"). What's next: Hand-carved natural reed cocktail straws? Olives pitted by hand and stuffed to order?
If one really wants spherical pieces of ice, I think it should be possible to develop some kind of flexible mold that could be filled and frozen.
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I'd be interested to know if anyone can search the records and find even one single case of an under age bust for drinking wine in a NYC fine dining restaurant over the last 20 years.
You probably won't find many. But, its not because of lack of enforcement.
Um... I'd say its exactly for a lack of enforcement. Every single person who has offered an opinion on this thread as to the NYC scene has acknowledged that they have seen it happening to others and/or that it happened to them. So if there aren't any cases, then the law isn't being enforced in that context.
Now, I dont' know how old Bryan looks and really wouldn't concern myself unless the drinker obviously looked under age (I'm not witch hunting), but for whatever reason the server at EMP chose to card him, he isn't of legal age and the server had no choice but to stand ground.So, what you're saying, as someone who "worked for Danny Meyer and several other 2, 3 and 4 star restaurants" where was "emphasized over and over that we were NOT to serve minors even if they were with their parents" is that if a customer looked like he reasonably might be 21 years old, but perhaps might not be 21 years old, you "wouldn't concern yourself" and would serve that customer. I have always understood that the law, at least as it applies in bars and shops, says you're supposed to card any customer who looks like he might possibly not be 21. You're applying the opposite standard, and saying that you wouldn't card a customer who looks like he might possibly be 21. Plenty of 18-20 year olds -- especially girls, who can avail themselves of makeup -- look like they might be 21 years old. Most of them, in fact. This is exactly what we've been talking about. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you've just given. We're not talking about 13 year olds.
That said, I do agree (and I think we all agree) that once the server chose to card Bryan, he had no choice but to refuse to serve him alcohol.
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Do you actually GO to "fine dining" restaurants in New York?
I've been to the main Red Lobster in Times Square many times, and for my last birthday some friends took me to Otto Enoteca.
So, the answer is "no," then?
I don't see why some people are having difficulty with the idea that the NYC police choose to spend their attention and resources elsewhere than busting fine dining restaurant for serving minors wine. These judgments are made by police all over the City every minute of every day. There's also a law against drinking in public in New York City. This law is not enforced against picnickers sharing a bottle of wine while hearing the Metropolitan Opera in Central Park, but is strictly enforced outside the Chelsea nightclubs. Why? Because it's a problem in Chelsea and not at Met in the Parks. It's simply naive to assume that the NYPD doesn't set enforcement priorities, and I can assure you that underage drinking at fine dining restaurants is not a high priority.
Here's a story: The first time I went to New Orleans, it was to attend the national convention of my college fraternity. On the first day, we were given an orientation session by the Chief of Police for New Orleans. He told us what parts of the City to stay out of, the fact that we would be required to decant any drinks into a "go cup" if we left a bar with our drinks, and that sort of thing. He also said, "it's no secret why we raised our drinking age to 21 years of age: to get our highway funding. But people around here, they're not going to change. As long as you're 18, you'll probably be okay." This was an explicit admission by a member of the police force that it was not a priority to enforce the drinking age in the French Quarter. They had other priorities. Similarly, the NYPD has more important priorities as well.
I'd be interested to know if anyone can search the records and find even one single case of an under age bust for drinking wine in a NYC fine dining restaurant over the last 20 years.
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But I for one haven't seen any documentation that this really happens, other than from two posters who said that they'd been served alcohol in upscale NYC restaurants when underage, and that's statistically insignificant. Everybody else has just said that 'of course, we all know it happens all the time', but I don't accept that.
markk, I don't understand what better evidence you're going to get. If nothing will convince you that this is so beyond a peer-reviewed controlled study with a large sample size and a p value of 0.001, then you're not going to be convinced. I note that note that not one single person who has any meaningful experience in NYC fine dining has come forward to say that it is not the status quo in NYC fine dining restaurants for late-teens with their parents to be served wine.
That's really the point: "my" side isn't advocating a change. We're advocating a continuation of the status quo.I, at least, am not even arguing for a continuation of the status quo. I'm simply pointing out that it is the status quo and giving some reasons why I think it is so.
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I can't imagine there is a restaurateur alive in this City that would cop to tacitly serving almost-legal-looking kids in the presence of their parents, with or without a promise of anonymity. Rather, I can only assume they would say that they do everything they can to make sure it never, ever happens.
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Check out Uncorked: The Science of Champagne by Gérard Liger-Belair. It answers this, and many other questions about champagne.
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I have to assume that the (needed) crackdowns on drunk driving are due to the fact that sprawl and car culture are becoming a much larger part of European culture. With increased car driving comes increasing problems with drunk driving.
As for "avoiding problems" like alcoholism and binge drinking, it's not clear to me that there is all that much one can do to avoid these problems among those who are inclined in that direction. It may be unclear to you that "countries where young children are exposed to drinking in the home and alcohol is a normal part of family meals, have thus, avoided problems" -- but it's also not clear to me that such an arrangement creates or contributes to these problems either. Given a choice between early education and exposure to responsible consumption of alcohol, or treating it like some magic elixir that you only get to have when you're 21, I think the former makes much more sense.
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This is getting off the topic, so if we would like to continue I'll split out some posts and make a new thread.
Anyway... I think that when people speak of "Prohibition Cocktails" or "cocktails that came out of Prohibition," I think they are thinking of cocktails invented in America during the period from 1920 to 1933. For some reason, this era is imprinted upon the popular imagination as a great era in the cocktailian craft, when in fact all signs point to it being a terrible era and the beginning of a long decline that we are only beginning to turn around in recent times. I wouldn't call a cocktail invented in, say, London in 1928 a "Prohibition Cocktail."
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This practice, in my opinion, is just a lame excuse for not setting up a kitchen that is disciplined and organized enough to have the various dishes done and out to the table at the right time.
It's called an expediter, folks. Get one. Do what he says.
As for the Chinese food model, I have in practice rarely if ever found bad sequencing to be a problem. At New Green Bo, for example, the kitchen always brings out the dumplings and pancakes first, then the soup, then the more substantial dishes. Of course, the dumplings may not all be finished before the stir-fried rice cakes some out, but the nature of a Chinese meal of this kind is such that this doesn't really pose a problem. It's not a big deal to have another dumpling while eating the rice cakes.
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Two things about the Sidecar.
1. As far as I know, the first printed recipes for a Sidecar appeared in 1922. If we assume that the drink was invented perhaps a few years earlier (a reasonable assumption, I think) then that would put it outside of the Prohibition years (1920 - 1933).
2. Also as far as I know, the Sidecar was created in Europe, not the United States. This would not make it a "Prohibition cocktail." There are any number of good cocktails created in Europe during the Prohibition era (the Golden Dawn comes to mind).
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Doc's a busy, busy man. I was able to glean that a follow-up book may be in the making.
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MADD's been around since I've been around.
MADD was founded in 1980. You're <26?
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Sam, where does NY fit in with those states?
According to my reading of the chart on the Alcohol Policy Information System web site, NY State does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol by those under 21 years of age. Of course, it does prohibit the purchase of alcohol by and the sale to those under 21 years of age, as well as the "possession with the intent to drink" bu those under 21. But it actually seems as though it might be the case that a parent could purchase wine at a restaurant and serve it to a child with no liability to the restaurant.
What some of us are trying to posit is that underage drinking is rapidly becoming a major perceived problem. It wasn't too long ago that MADD didn't exist and TV stations rarely did any stories on binge drinking.I think "perceived" is a big part of this statement. It's not clear to me at all that underage drinking is meaningfully worse now than it was 25 years ago. In fact, if a comparison of the atmosphere at my alma mater today compared to when I was in school is any indication, it's significantly better. The difference is that it's covered a lot more by the mass media (which is more "mass" today than ever).
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JohnL, if you look at all the legal steps being taken, I think you will find that thay are all done with the goal of preventing drunk driving -- something I support (er, preventing it, that is, not doing it).
As for European drinking ages:
Austria: 14 with your parents, 16 for beer, 18 for spirits
Belgium: 16 (no age restrictions on beer and wine in shops)
France: 16
Germany: 16 for beer, 18 for spirits (no age restrictions in private)
Greece: 16 (no age restrictions in private)
Hungary: 0 in bars/restaurants, 18 in shops (rarely enforced)
Ireland: 18
Italy: 16 in bars/restaurants, 0 in shops
Netherlands: 16 <22% ABV), 18 >22% ABV
Spain: 18
Switzerland 0 in bars/restaurants, 14–16 for beer and wine and 18 for spirits in shops
United Kingdom: 5 in bars/restaurants (with parent), 18 in shops
As for the US, here's an interesting graphic.
Wikipedia says: "Contrary to popular belief, few states specifically prohibit minors' consumption of alcohol in private settings (an exception includes Connecticut). ... As of 2006, 20 states do not specifically ban underage consumption and an additional 15 states have family member and/or location exceptions to their underage consumption laws."
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Dude. You remember anything from chemistry class? Whoa.
Okay... I have been able to determine that the legal definition of ABV in the US specifies a temperature of 60F.
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You have an oven that can reliably maintain 50C/122F?! That's impressive. I don't think I even know of a home oven that has that setting. Most home ovens only have a temperature setting as low as around 90C/200F.
What do you perceive as the advantages of open air long cooking in the oven versus sous vide? I'd be a bit worried about drying and contamination.
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No alcohol (or water) disappears when mixing, it just becomes tighter packed. Additionally, assuming perfect distillation, you could still seperate the mixture to 500ml water and 500ml ethanol. Thus, the mixture remains 50% abv.
Yes, this is how it works. Ethanol and water together can pack tighter than either one can on its own. I should add that the same thing can happen in the other direction, depending on the substances involved: two volumes mixed together can result in a volume that is greater than the sum of the original volumes.
The question of alcohol by volume is a difficult one to answer, however. What, exactly, constitutes "volume" in the context of a 1:1 solution of alcohol and water? More to the point, how is this determined? Are we looking at a hypothetical idea where all the various constituents of a bottle of liquor are separated out, measured as to volume and then the percentage of alcohol by volume is calculated on this basis? What basis are we using to determine abv when it's got more than just water and ethanol? What about something like Drambuie, which is comprised of alcohol, water, sugar and various other dissolved substances?
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Norman, is this a dish that is baked for a long time at low temperature, which the bbc link provided by Duncan implies, or is it cooked sous vide for a long time, which is implied by the complete recipe linked to by Duncan?
If sous vide's what you're looking for, we have one of the best collections of information on the internet right here in the eG Forums. If you're wanting to cook something in an oven for 48 hours at, say, 60C -- I'm not sure this is possible without a specialty oven.
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Everybody here is giving rationalizations for why it's okay to declare a grey area around this law, so that a nicely dressed and gastronomically accomplished twenty-year-old can enjoy some fine with with his fine dinner. But in the event of a mishap, these grey areas will turn frighteningly black and white for the restaurant owner.
markk, I don't think anyone is suggesting that, in the purely legal sense, the restaurant is not assuming some legal risk. Arguments are being made and examples given for why people believe it is a small risk in the context of NYC fine dining.
I also don't think anyone is "giving rationalizations for why it's okay to declare a grey area around this law." The fact is that this grey area does exist. Fine dining restaurants in NYC have been doing it, and will continue to do it for the forseeable future. It is a de facto grey area.
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I was talking about this with my father the other day, who is a chemist of some repute. He mentioned that it's not necessarily a no-brainer to say what percentage of a given liquor is alcohol. This is because when two liquids (or two solids, or a liquid and a solid, etc.) are mixed together, it does not necessarily follow that the volume of the resultant mixture will be equal to the sum of the volumes of the two liquids. It might be more than the sum of the two volumes, or it might be less.
In the case of alcohol, for example, if you mix together a half-liter of pure ethanol and a half-liter of pure water, you do not get a liter of alcohol-and-water. No, you get 956 ml of alcohol-and-water. This is because equal volumes of ethanol and water will have only 95.6% of the volume of the equal parts of ethanol and water when unmixed. So... is that 956 ml of water 100 proof (aka 50% abv) or not? It is comprised of 500 ml of water and 500 ml of ethanol for a total of 956 ml. In the most literal sense, it does not add up.
This is pretty easy to figure out when we mix the alcohol ourselves, but it seems like it would be quite a bit more difficult to back-calculate if you're staring at a 956 ml bottle of booze. If you correctly say that the 956 ml of booze contains 500 ml of alcohol, does that make it 104 proof (52% abv)? Or if you correctly say that the 956 ml of booze contains 500 ml of water, does that make it 96 proof (48% abv)?
As you may imagine, when the bottle starts to contain things other than just ethanol and water (i.e., everything but vodka), and when the amount of alohol deviates from the 50/50 example I gave above, it becomes even more complicated.
So? How is it done?
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First--Alcohol consumption is a privilege it is not a right. It is similar to driving a car. We have determined that there should be age limits/restrictions which ensure the safety of all of us. We can quibble with the age restriction--should it be eighteen or twenty one or whatever.
I don't think I agree with this at all. I suppose one may say that the government of the United States has decided to take the position that alcohol consumption outside of one's home is a privilege rather than a right. But I don't agree that it's anything like driving a car at all. There is no reason whatsoever that the government should be sticking their nose into what I drink in the privacy of my own home. I think it's also worthy of note that the only reason we have a legal drinking age in this country at all is a combination of the aftereffects of the misguided temperance movement and a desire to reduce drunk driving accidents (with respect to the latter, I should hasten to point out that the same effect could be achieved by lowering the drinking age to 18 and raising the minimum age requirement for a driver's license to 21).
Certainly I plan to introduce my children, when I have them, to reasonable amounts of alcohol quite early in their lives. This is commonplace in many countries. In Belgium, for example, it is not unusual for children as young as 5 years old to have a small glass of low-alcohol beer (tafelbier) with a meal. There was even a program in Belgian schools to replace soft drinks with tafelbier!
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Well, I live in NYC and I'm not sure I'd be inclined to tip 20% to stand at a bar and eat a panino.
Other tipping threads include:
Buying meat for braising: does quality matter?
in Kitchen Consumer
Posted
I'm not saying that fat isn't important. Just that it's not part of the collagen-to-gelatin reaction, aka the "breaking down connective tissue" to which we most commonly refer in the context of meat cookery. Fat is, itself, a connective tissue, so to the extent that it melts it is doing some "breaking down of connective tissue." But this is relatively trivial compared to the collagen-to-gelatin reaction in a braising cut. As LT/LT sous vide cooking demonstrates, converting collagen to gelatin without melting out most of the fat still results in very tender meat, whereas the opposite is definitely not the case.
On page 131 of the new edition, McGee says:
My larger point was simply that it's unclear to me that desirable fat characteristics in one part of a carcass necessarily mean desirable fat characteristics in all parts of the carcass. Looking at my own body, I can pretty much guarantee that the marbling of fat in meat taken from my midsection will be far greater than it would be in meat taken from my calf.