slkinsey

Ah yes. And how is Fairway rating on the SPI (Shaw Pineapple Index ) these days?

I personally find the sour flavors obtained with a fully-fermented naturally leavened dough to be disharmonious with the flavors of pizza. Since pizza dough benefits greatly from long fermentation, I don't see how there's any way of getting around this.

There is no difference between an infusion and a tincture. Tincture simply means that the volatile parts of a substance have been taken into solution by a solvent (or solvents). In this case, the solvents are ethyl alcohol and water. In the Christian Schultz Manual for the manufacture of cordials, liquors, fancy syrups, &c. &c. included together with certain editions of Jerry Thomas's How to Mix Drinks the author describes what he calls the "process of displacement" whereby the ingredients to be infused are ground into a coarse powder, moistened with alcohol into a paste, then left to infuse. After a period of time, the paste is placed into a funnel-filter and the infused spirit extracted by adding more alcohol to the top, which "displaces" the infused spirit. The extracted spirit might be reintroduced to the top of the filter until a non-turbid result is obtained. (in effect, this was a way of using the ground-up ingredients as a natural filter for fine particles). Schultz writes, "this extract is called tincture." I should point out, however, that this is only Schultz's definition. Tequila infused with chunks of pineapple is just as much a tincture as grain alcohol infused with ground cloves and extracted according to the above-described method. When you say "rectified spirits" I assume you mean high-proof (90% abv) neutral spirits. Vodka is, of course, a rectified spirit -- usually much more rectified than high proof neutral sprits in fact. Indeed, vodka starts out as a high proof, highly rectified, highly filtered neutral spirit which is then diluted down to between 40% and 50% abv. For our purposes there are two salient differences between vodka and high proof neutral spirits: First, vodka is much more rectified and filtered than the high proof neutral spirits commonly available for purchase in the States (you may have access to better in Poland). As a result, there is a certain "harshness" to these spirits, even if diluted down to 40% abv. Second, certain substances have better solubility into water and certain substances have better solubility into alcohol. If we infuse into a 50% alcohol/50% water solution, we are infusing all the substances which are soluble into both water and alcohol. If we infuse into 90% alcohol, we are mostly infusing the alcohol-soluble substances. It's not clear to me how you are using the word "denature." Denaturation is the process by which a protein or amino acid's structure is altered by an outside stressor such as heat, acid, alkali, alcohol, salts, reducing agents, etc. I'm not sure how you think this works in the context of proof and spirit infusions. If a negative result is obtained as a result of infusing into high proof spirits, it's not clear to me that this is due to denaturation so much as it may be due to selective infusion of alcohol-soluble volatiles, over-extraction of certain substances due to the fast-acting nature of a high-proof solvent, or infusion of undesirable substances. In general, I think one will find that higher-proof infusions have better preservative properties compared to lower-proof infusions. The reason disinfecting alcohol is diluted to 70% strength is not because 95% alcohol "denatures skin cells," but rather because 95% alcohol is less effective at killing bacteria in that context. This is because 70% alcohol is able to penetrate bacterial cell walls where it denatures the bacteria's proteins (DNA) and amino acids. 95% alcohol, on the other hand, quickly denatures the bacteria's cell walls thereby preventing the alcohol from passing into the cell. Both 95% and 70% alcohol are capable of denaturing skin cell proteins, and one would assume that the lower abv solution has a similarly greater denaturing power with respect to skin cells as it does with respect to bacterial cells.

No hot spots. Much higher thermal capacity for searing steaks, etc.

They control a heat source. It could be a crock pot or a hot plate or other small appliance. Instead of plugging the appliance into the wall you plug it into the controller and then plug the controller into the wall. A temperature probe is put into the water that you want to heat to the controlled temperature. The controller then switches on power to the appliance when the temperature is lower and cuts it off when it hits the set point. The sophistication of the feedback loop and the control logic is why different methods have different results. Lab equipment costs a lot more because it's more precise and that precision costs money. Note the word precision, not accuracy. The question is how precise one needs to be and it's not all on the controller. How quickly the appliance heats up or cools down has an effect as does the amount of water being controlled and the vessel it's in. For most the things that I would cook by this method, the precision of a commercial controller should be adequate. It may take some practice and calibration but so does my oven and range. WRT precision and accuracy... presumably the temperature sensors on these controllers are sufficiently accurate, if that's what you're getting at. I still have a hard time believing that a bottom-heated system or a crock pot system controlled by one of these things wouldn't exhibit temperature variability to the tune of 5-6 degrees C. This would definitely have some effect on certain cooking techniques, and for short-term cooking techniques (e.g., fish) it's not clear that it would have an advantage over using a large stockpot and an accurate thermometer.

What would these controllers be controlling, exactly? Presumably you're not going to wire them into an electric stove.

The Grand Tier restaurant is about what you would expect: mediocre catered food.

Teitel rawks, for sure. I use Frantoia from oleifici Barbera. It's an unfiltered extra virgin olive oil from Sicily. Strong "olivey" flavor, medium fruitiness and inexpensive enough at around $19/liter to use for everyday cooking yet refined enough to use raw on salads, fish, etc. All the Barbera oils are very good (I quite like their Stupor Mundi and Andria Classico) and reasonably priced. That said, if I were going to deep fry in extra virgin olive oil, I'd be using something priced more like Edda.

I've been thinking of making a quinine tincture I could keep in an eyedropper bottle and use to bump Lillet back up to pre-reformulation levels.

There was, unfortunately, a fairly narrow window during which time one could buy stainless lined heavy copper cookware for relatively low prices. Ten years ago, there was only Bourgeat and Mauviel available in the US. The former was priced egergiously high and the former only somewhat less so. Then in 1999 Falk Culinair began selling in the States for far less, and this rationalized the market. That was a great time for buying copper cookware. Back then, however, copper cost only around $0.70 per pound and a dollar was worth around 1.2 Euros. Now copper is more than $3.00 per pound, and a dollar is worth only around 0.73 Euros. The large change in copper prices as well as the dramatic drop in the dollar's value with respect to the Euro have resulted in a fairly steep increase in the price of stainless lined heavy copper cookware.

In what way is the cast iron pan bad for making the reduction sauce? If you're worried about getting off-flavors from the iron, you can always deglaze and then pour the liquid out of the cast iron pan into a small saucepan for further reduction/manipulation. Personally, I don't find that these sauces take long enough or contain enough acid that it's an issue.

Takadi, most of this is explained in my egci class, which others have already referenced in this thread. So, rather than rehashing that material here, I'll direct you to tha thread.

Darcie B: As chance would have it, all of the stainless/copper bimetal is manufactured by Falk Culinair, which developed the process and owns the patent. Even more interesting is the fact that Bourgeat copper cookware is manufactured by Mauviel using Falk Culinair's bimetal. takadi: As others have mentioned, copper pans have a higher thermal capacity than aluminum pans of the same size/shape/configuration. That said, if what you really want is a saute pan, and you intend to use it for sauteing and other high-heat applications, you can do even better with a disk-bottom pan that has a heavy stainless bottom and an extra-thick aluminum base. Several manufacturers offer aluminum bases between 5 mm and 7 mm thick.

It's never been clear to me that there is a good definition of "ratafia." Some sources seem to indicate that ratafia is a liqueur made by infusing alcohol with fruit kernels/pits and/or bitter almongs, and possibly also including fruit and/or herbs -- in which case it is defined by the kernel/pit/bitter almond infusion. Other sources suggest that ratafia is a fruit based infused liqueur produced either at home or in small farms -- in which case it is defined by the place/way it is produced. Both are apparently wine-based and quite low in alcohol, which would not give them much similarity with crèmes de noyaux such as Noyau de Poissy or the Duplais recipe. On the other hand, the 1913 Webster's says it is "A spirituous liquor flavored with the kernels of cherries, apricots, peaches, or other fruit, spiced, and sweetened with sugar; -- a term applied to the liqueurs called noyau, curaçao, etc." So that is needless to say inconsistent as well.

This fork of the discussion came about because LPShanet said that "the defining characteristic of NY pizza is its crust" and, by implication, that NYC pizza is distinguished by having a great crust. I pointed out that most NYC steel deck pizza oven crusts suck. LPShanet agreed that the "best crusts come from a really hot coal (or wood, or similar) oven" but suggested that "you can achieve a pretty good result in a standard Bari deck oven" by baking the pizza twice. I replied that I thought a good and even great slice can come from a stainless deck oven, but not a truly great crust -- primarily because steel deck ovens can't achieve a high enough temperature to create a "crisp and charred yet light and pliable" crust that is the pinnacle of pizza crustery. This led to the current digression on oven temperatures. I would say that it is not possible to make a truly great pizza crust using a standard stainless deck pizza oven, even with considerable tweaking. The primary limitation is temperature, but there may be other limitations. It's impossible to make any absolute pronouncements as to temperature, because styles differ. I would suggest that somewhere around 800F (could be as low as 750 for a certain style, and could go as high as 900 for others). Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that stainless deck ovens are at least a hundred degrees F away from being able to compete with what retained heat ovens are capable of producing in terms of crust quality. If someone invents a stainless deck oven capable of putting a crisp char on the bottom, fully cooking the crust and melting the top of a pizza in 120 seconds, that may change. But for sure that's not what most NYC pizzerie are using right now, and I have some doubts as to how many of these ovens are even capable of 650 (never mind the fact that practically none of them are set that high). Hey, if someone has an example of a steel deck pizza oven crust that competes with Patsy's, Grimaldi's, Franny's, etc. on those criteria I'd like to try it. But generally one has to choose between soft, spongey and insipid on one hand or crisp, dry and tough on the other .

That's not the full context of what I said. What I said was: "Even with a seriously tweaked oven maxed out at 650F, they're still a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven." It's quite clear that wood- and coal-fired ovens can, and regularly do achieve temperatures in the range of 850F to 900F. Maybe I need to check my basic mathematics, but I think I'm correct in saying that these temperatures are "a few hundred agrees" higher than 650F. I would argue that the places making the best crusts, the outstanding crusts that are capable of attracting attention in and of themselves, are by and large baking at significantly higher temperatures than the 650F maximum obtainable with a maxed-out, top of the line, brand new stainless deck pizza oven. So, yea. I would argue that it's more or less impossible to get a superior crust at 650 degrees in a stainless deck oven. I've certainly never experienced one. You should do more reading on pizza baking temperatures, then. I think you'll find a remarkable amount of agreement among those with knowledge that the best pizza crusts are produced at high temperatures. Indeed, most of the various societies and certifying bodies tend to suggest around 800F, and sometimes more. Again, I haven't argued that all wood- and coal-fired retained heat ovens are fired at those temperatures. I believe I said in my last post that plenty of "brick oven" places fire to lower temperatures and produce correspondingly less-exciting crusts. That said, even something like 750 degrees is significantly different from 650 degrees when it comes to making pizza. You seem to be proceeding on the premise that "in the 700s" means 700 degrees, whereas I'd suggest that we're talking about at least a hundred degree average difference. But let's assume that plenty of places with wood-fired ovens are baking at 700 degrees. Considering that plenty of places with wood-fired ovens are producing less-than-exciting crusts, I'm not sure what this tells us. Certainly the quality of crusts baked in stainless deck pizza ovens could be better, and there are a lot of things that could be done to make them better. All I am suggesting is that, due to temperature limitations, there is a finite limit as to how good these crusts can be and there are certain effects that are not possible using a stainless deck pizza oven. These issues are further compounded by certain stylistic choices that go along with this kind of pizza (most prominently, the volume of toppings). Considering that 90% of American consumers of pizza are primarily focused on the toppings, it's not clear to me that there is a great deal to be gained for the operator of a stainless deck pizza oven in tweaking for a better crust. I think that Dom Demarco at Di Fara is achieving just about the peak of what is possible in terms of crust quality out of a stainless deck pizza oven while working within the topping-centric aesthetic, and it's clear that his method involves some significant tweaking. Could most of the stainless deck oven pizza crusts be a lot better than they are, even within the topping-centric aesthetic? For sure. Turn up the temperature and bake the pizza on the oven floor. Stainless deck oven pizza crusts could be even better if the pizzaioli made the dough thinner and used half the amount of toppings -- not that I think this will ever happen. But, regardless, none of these crusts will be able to compete with the crust coming out of an 800F - 900F retained heat pizza oven by someone who knows what he's doing. I think that's simply impossible as a matter of physics. So, my contention is that it's possible to make a terriffic pizza crust and a superior pizza crust at temperatures that are only available in retained heat ovens. Stainless deck ovens can aspire to very, very good.

There are plenty of "brick oven" type pizzerie turning out mediocre pizza baked at lower temperatures. Just because it is a retained heat wood-fired oven doesn't mean it's going to be fired high enough or turn out great pizza. The NYC wood- and coal-fired pizzerie are baking at least as high as 750, and optimally in the very high 800s or even low 900s. The lower temperatures would coincide with pizzerie that are lacking in overall oven management (e.g., Lombardi's) and times when otherwise extellent pizzerie may lenot keep the oven fully fired during the non-rush hours (e.g., Grimaldi's at around four o'clock in the afternooon). Both conditions result in a notable drop in quality. What Forno Bravo (which is trying to sell pizza ovens) says is: I note that the Italians recommend "900ºF on the cooking floor and 825ºF in the cooking dome" and also that the text says there are "many VPN-certified pizzerias baking in the 700ºs." The rest of their text would indicate that they're talking about at least 750F when they say "in the 700ºs." That's a far cry from 650 degrees. As for the News-Tribune article, I'm not entirely sure how much I believe all those temperatures and baking times. Did they measure the temperatures, or did they ask the owners? And if they did measure, how was the temperature in the ovens measured? Was it with an infrared thermometer or did the ovens have a temperature indicator? If it was an oven indicator, that's problematic because different ovens can show radically different temperatures depending on the way the oven is constructed, where the temperature is measured, and the nature of the temperature probe. Depending on construction/location/method, it 's certainly possible for a temperature readout to show 675F and for the floor of the oven to actually be 750F. I also have some questions as to those baking times, but will note that the pizzeria with the shortest baking time and the most rhapsodic description of its crust was the place with the highest reported oven temperature. It's also interesting to note that, in the article, good crust quality was highly associated with the higher oven temperatures (and secondarily with austere use of toppings). The best thing in the Forno Bravo site is that they point out the importance of fully cooking the pizza in 90 seconds for an optimal crust that is both crisp and pliable as opposed to tough and chewy. It could be theoretically possible to do this at 650F, but the pizza would have to be paper thin with minimal toppings.

The main deal is temperature. Even with a seriously tweaked oven maxed out at 650F, they're still a few hundred degrees F below what you can get in a wood- or coal-fired oven. It's possible to reach these temperatures with gas, but it takes a very specialized setup (I've seen one at Fornino in Williamsburg -- the gas jet is the size of my torso). Even though it's a few hundred degrees below the retained heat ovens, when a gas deck oven is cranked up to 650F, it's not going to be a very comfortable working around it. Those big doors let out a lot of heat. Dom Demarco has the ovens at Di Fara cranked up to the maximum, and it can be quite uncomfortable standing near the oven. Retained heat ovens, on the other hand, are purpose-built and designed in such a way that the pizzaiolo's exposure to the intense heat is minimized. I also have to assume that it can be quite expensive to maintain a stainless deck oven at high temperature. The result, as Steven points out, is that the vast majority of stainless pizza ovens are maintained more like around 500F (I also wonder how many NYC pizzerie have ovens that are capable of safely sustaining 650F). Consider this: How long does it take to bake a pizza in a typical stainless deck pizza oven? 10 minutes for the places that have the oven cranked up, and more like 20 minutes at most places. I've stood in front of the oven at Patsy's East Harlem and timed their pizza baking time, which averages between 90 and 120 seconds to bake a pizza. That gives some idea as to the difference in temperature.

It's not clear to me that crème de noyaux is supposed to be almond liqueur. First, the French word for "almond" is amande not noyau, which means "pit" or "core" (interestingly, another meaning of amande is "kernel"). If you look at the history page for Noyau de Poissy, it says: "Quand et à qui vint l’idée d’utiliser l’amande si parfumée de l’abricot?" Taken together, it would seem that crème de noyaux is apricot kernel liqueur.

How about as cast iron frypan, with low sloped sides instead of the medium-height straight "skillet" sides. And, for that matter, I'd love to see cast iron cookware at around double the thickness currently offered.

Steel cut oats. Toast in a heavy copper saucepan until lightly browned. Add water at around 4:1 by volume. Bring to boil. Heavy pinch of salt! Simmer half-covered at lowest possible setting until thick, stirring occasionally. When ready, turn off heat and stir in medium knob of butter. Eat with a touch of brown sugar.

I'll certainly agree that, to me, pizza has always been about the crust. But, leaving out the old school coal-fired places, I'm not sure NYC deck-oven by-the-slice pizza has been defined by a superior crust in a long, long time. There's only so good the crust can be with this style of pizza. Sure, there are some places like Di Fara and Sal & Carmine's that manage to turn out a better crust than usual (ableit radically different in the case of these two examples), but I wouldn't say even the best places have been head-and-shoulders above the norm. I'd say that's both true and false. While the best crusts come from a really hot coal (or wood, or similar) oven, you can achieve a pretty good result in a standard Bari deck oven by using the principle discovered by the best french fry makers: cook it twice. I think some places (e.g., Di Fara as I mention above) have come pretty close to the best of what is possible within the limitations imposed by a stainless deck pizza oven, and they seem to be able to do it without baking the crust twice. I don't dispute that a "pretty good slice" can be produced in a deck oven... even a superior one. I do dispute that New York stainless deck oven pizza was ever particularly defined by having a superior crust or distinguished from other species and styles of pizza on this basis. The limitations imposed by stainless deck ovens mean that, in order to get a crisp crust -- never mind any "char" -- you need to bake the pizza for a longer period of time, which dries out the crust and makes it tougher (as opposed to the "crisp and charred yet light and pliable" effect higher temperature retained-heat ovens can create). This is especially true when the pizza is made with high gluten flour and even more true when the crust is laden with an overabundance of toppings, both of which are almost always the case with this style of pizza. Double-baking and other compensatory techniques magnify this drying/toughening effect. This is not to say, however, that a superior pizza can't be made in this style and using these techniques. Most anyone would agree that Di Fara makes a superior pizza working in this style, and weinoo and others point out that other examples exist around the city. But superior pizza and superior crust aren't the same thing. I would argue that "acceptably crisp and functionally capable of supporting the toppings" just about represents the pinnacle of stainless deck-oven pizza baking. It's unclear to me that they're capable of making a crust so good you'd eat it on its own. That said, I suppose I'd agree that NYC stainless deck oven pizza may have been distinguished from other regional stainless deck oven pizza by having a less common incidence of crappy sponge crust. One thing I note is that it's fairly common even in "slice shop level" pizzerie in NYC to bake the pizza directly on the floor of the oven rather than using a pizza pan, which does provide for a crisper crust. This does not seem to be the case in many other regional traditions. Edited to add: I think it's interesting that, in order to get a great pizza at Joe's, weinoo had to specify "thin, light on the cheese, and well cooked on the bottom" -- in effect, mandating that they deviate significantly from their usual practices. I've employed similar ordering techniques at Lombardi's.

I think Swizzle Stick would qualify in this respect, but it might be too embedded in a tourist friendly zone to be a regular hang out for locals. It's hard to say, because I haven't been there (yet! - I'm going to be in New Orleans in November). But the menu isn't terribly encouraging: Contrast that with this menu from The Zig Zag Cafe in Seattle, which is more what I had in mind: This menu is reflective of a level of sophistication, a knowledge of cocktail history and a familiarity with the revival tradition of developing new cocktails in the classic tradition that is not apparent in the Swizzle Stick menu.

I think the decline of cocktails in NO was part of the general trend in America. You can't have a standard sink that low for such a length of time and not have it affect New Orleans as much as it does anywhere else. In terms of locals, I imagine that NO presents many of the same hurdles to the cocktail revival as other cities, things such as building interest, familiarity and critical mass. Even in a city like NYC, a leader in the cocktails movement, the vast majority of bars are turning out mediocrity. On top of that, New Orleans has perhaps some additional hurdles. For example, it seems as though beer and straight whiskey are much more a part of what is perceived in the popular imagination as "mainsteam NO culture" compared to cocktails (and I am constantly amazed the way a perceived reality can be bought into to the extent that it becomes actual reality within a generation). In terms of tourists, I wonder what percentage of NO non-restaurant alcohol-consuming tourists aren't going to the French Quarter to get sloshed on cheap sugary crap. This is another hurdle. In the final analysis, however, I'm not so sure that the cocktails situation is all that dire in New Orleans -- the cocktails revival is still in quite an early stage. There are plenty of cities at around the same urban size as New Orleans about which we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because the going-in assumption would be that they didn't have a single great cocktail spot (e.g., Jacksonville, Kansas City, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, etc.). If we wonder why New Orleans doesn't have better cocktails, it's probably because of the historical association (awareness of which has been boosted by the Museum of the American Cocktail and Tales of the Cocktail) and also because it's known as having such great food culture. Ultimately, however, all it takes is for one dedicated bunch to open a place in New Orleans that religiously maintains quality, tradition and innovation within the context of tradition.

All of these things, I would thing, presuppose that it isn't three-deep at the bar. No bartender who is busting ass to serve 4 customers every minute is going to be able to have a conversation with you about how you'd like your Martini other than to glean the basics (brand, stirred versus shaken, garnish, proportion of vermouth if you're lucky).