ThePieman

Yes, waited to reply so that I could share this Video which gives a good demonstration of Piebase and its properties. Enjoy.

Analysing the latest ingredients, in my autopsy video, has forced me to again, rethink this whole thing. Serving Size is 162 g nom. A rough guess at the percentages gives the following (note, these have not as yet been tested, only thought experimented): Ingredients g % *Wheat Flour 34,0 21 Cabbage 29,2 18 *Water 22,7 14 Cooked Pearl Barley 11,6 7,15 Carrot 11,5 7,1 Beef 11,4 7,05 *Animal Fat (beef) 11,3 7 Wheat Cereal 2,8 1,75 Celery 2,6 1,6 Onion 2,5 1,55 Green beans 2,4 1,5 Textured Soy Protein 2,2 1,35 Salt 2,5 1,52 Sugar 2,3 1,4 Sodium Bicarbonate 1,9 1,2 ***HSP 1,8 1,1 Spices 3,6 2,2 White Pepper 0,2 0,1 Chilli 1,3 0,8 Cinnamon 1,1 0,7 Nutmeg 1,0 0,6 Lecithin 0,8 0,5 **Tartrazine (Yellow) 0,6 0,4 **Sunset Yellow 0,5 0,3 ***MSG 0,2 0,1 Total 162,0 * Typical components of a pastry dough, 1st estimate based on 3:2:1 ratio **Food Colourings, I am hazarding that they might be added to the pastry, rather than the filling. Substitution would be Tumeric, and perhaps a slight amount of red paprika ***Hydrolysed Vegetable (soy) protein is a flavour enhancer much like msg, I think we can safely I don't recall such items being added to pastry We know of the spices, there is some chilli included and than normally spice mixes don't need to list ingredients if the total is less than 5% Wheat Cereal is definitely used to cap off the ends of the tubes, and/or also to thicken the ingredient mix. Bicarbonate of Soda is listed as an acidity regulator so I do not think it is a component of the pastry. As previously mentioned there is no egg in the modern incarnation of the Chiko Roll. This begs the question, How is the dough made, formed up and handled in order to produce this result, and how does this substantially differ to what might have been achieved using and egg batter dough, as history has it recorded? I'm missing something, I know I'm missing something, but what? Something that't part of a process or preparatory methods that doesn't need to listed among the ingredients? What? It's makes me itch all over...

Nice insight, that probably explains why almost al Aussie commercial bakers seem to be so la la, "oh that old thing? everyone knows about that."

Thanks Lisa for your thoughts, much appreciated. Yes it is an odd look. I have taken several apart in an attempt to understand it better. I will be posting my own Youtube video of my latest autopsy of one, soon. The ends are not the same as the main dough. They appear to be a batter made with Semolina (moderately coarse wheat grits used often as a breakfast cereal, or in some Italian type dumplings; call it "Wheat Cereal") – quite possibly nothing more than semolina and egg, but as you say, egg is not in the current list of ingredients. I've tried doughs using baking soda but was rather quite unsuccessful. The doughs after cooking turned out to be too bread-like and the flavour was just completely wrong. I believe the baking soda is used as an acidity regulator in the cooking of the cabbage, and must be listed since its a food additive. The Corn Jack dough surface definitely has a different texture. Its more like sandpaper. This leads me to believe that after the dough is made, it is lightly rolled in Semolina. Why Semolina? Because they don't list Polenta (corn meal of a similar coarseness) corn doesn't get a look-in anywhere. (well... maybe in the Corn Jack...)

I'm not sure. This is seriously an Australian/New Zealand complication. The dough is special. What it is,I just don't know, but I'd like to

Naturally.

no. the inside texture is critical, that is the major failure in this exercise. I've discovered, like many others, that a wet enough dough, will blister enough when deep fried, but it is the other elements that I'm not getting.

Ingredients List A: http://www.simplotfoodservice.com.au/Products.asp?ID=289 Ingredients List B: (Frank McEnroe bio.) http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcencroe-francis-gerald-frank-10946 Yes there is a seam. Its not double/multi-battered, It is rolled, basically, (think I saw once many years ago a youtube vid of an industrial process where they rolled, cut baked and fried some snack, but can't find it any more) and then the ends are "painted" in. I presume that it is an egg-wash and semolina paste that is used to seal the ends, due to the fact that on frying they usually darken more quickly than the rest of the roll. I've postulated many methods for making these, but the most obvious method involved rolling the dough out with a 15cm pasta roller/machine. Why? thickness is easy to control, its fast, and the 15cm wide strips of dough roll up to around a 2" dia. roll which is cut to 20 cm lengths, funnily enough is about two handfulls, side by side. Its noted that McEnroe used a sausage stuffer to form the filling. Two handfulls of filling would be the limit that any one person could hold at any one time; drop that on pastry cut to about the same length and you have a very human sized portion of dough and filling, for a snack.

Not quite. The dough was quite, bready, which is not characteristic of the original Chiko Roll. Thus whilst the presentation is, "a" take on the Chiko Roll, however it is not a good take, as far as the dough goes. The filling was, for lack of a better word, goood. As you search the web, you will run up against my past efforts, Baitlayer blog & Villatempest blog, (I don't think I'm spread further than that) be that as it may, solo work is... solo work and I need help, that's why I'm here. Australians know the Chiko Roll well. There have been a few, too few, good attempts at this, but nothing really successful and certainly nothing that focuses on the technique associated with the dough – its all about that mysterious filling... (bah, humbug, et al). Simply put this is a thickish, deep fried, firm dough that is not bread-like nor is it spring-roll-wrapper-like. It had a solid characteristic about it, insofar as it doesn't shrink/collapse on cooling and it has a moderately airy/spongey/puffed thickness that is slightly doughish on the inside and granularishly crispy on the outside. The dough, really is the true mystery of this roll. Caveats. This was invented in 1950's Victoria, Australia, using basic kitchen equipment and knowhow of the time. but to be honest, its really got me beat.

Yeah, eh-hmmm... I wrote that.

That's a fair point. To give a comparison, the Chiko Roll contains a rather thick, non-juicy cabbage, barley, mutton and vegetable mix. It is soft, gummy, and pasty in texture. whereas the Corn Jack is a looser, creamed corn filling, that is moister, and less viscous as a filling.

Thanks. Got lots of adventures to share, from, developing a method for making cheese from UHT milk, or exploring modernist techniques in Vietnam, through to understanding better the history of spice migration. Cheers.

Yes is does, to some extent. However, after six years research, egg roll pastry doesn't have the same outside texture, nor does it have the same dough characteristics and structure, even though this dough was "invented" to be more robust that spring rolls back in the day. Many people do use spring roll wrappers for this purpose but, it's a bit like trying to substitute butter layered filo for puff pastry to make Hors d'oeuvre cups. It'll do, if you're not too fussy. But, making the Chiko Roll is not my end goal here, understanding the pastry is. By nailing the technique for the pastry, it doesn't matter in the end what gets wrapped inside it, it'll all be super tasty.

I certainly could, but am not sure on the protocol. The relevant products are the Chiko Roll and the Cornjack (I believe possibly rolled in semolina). Both are Simplot Products. Both are derided due to the "unhealthy" image. However, that being said, the technique of such a dough is of great interest to me. The above efforts with small modifications, have produced some very soft, enjoyable frying doughs in their own right and are well worth pursuing in and of themselves. The meringue batter, I read about in a post war cookery book, and eye openengly delightful, again in its own right. However, they are not my target goals, just very interesting tangents.

Its not biscuit like although is is quite short. Are you familiar with Australian & New Zealand Pies? The texture is quite firm but when you break it open it tends to have a fine crumb which holds together well. This base is often combined with a half puff or rough puff pastry top to make what some refer to as "double crust" pies. The trouble with a standard shortcrust base is that if there's not enough water in the paste, it tend to be to not firm enough for hand holding the pie, and puff pastry tends towards soggy greasyness especially if not baked at a high enough temperature. I wrote about this a while back here. This method will not produce soft flaky pastries, but with the addition of some sugar, or egg, or milk etc. you can change the properties of your piebase, within limits, to suit your needs.

The Creaming Method for for making Piebase, a very short paste used for making pie crusts for savoury style pies, as is typical in Australia, is an excellent method for warmer environments. The history of the method extends bak to late 1800's early 1900's. It is not a variation on hot water pastry. Most people are aware of Shortcrust pie dough methods that involve cutting the fat into the flour THEN adding the liquid, i.e. water is the variable in the method. With the Creaming Method, flour is the variable in the method. Typically you take all your liquids and fats and 30-50% of your flour and combine them, mixing until smooth and clear. A stand mixer is a very useful item here. Once the moist dough is clear, the rest of the flour can be added piecemeal until a dough of the desired firmness comes together. Once reached, stop. No more mixing. Set Piebase dough aside to rest for aprox. 2 hours before pinning out. Once made up in your favourite pie form, with desired filling, and with a top of same, or other, pastry, set the pie aside for at least one hour to rest before baking. This is necessary to combat possible shrinkage issues. Enjoy.

Hi folks, my question is technique oriented as I am badly in need of correction and/or instruction. I cannot find any workable recipe for, "Egg Batter Dough" that once fried has the external texture and internal features that I'm looking for, its really quite the mystery to me and has been for now close to 6 years. So, I've come here looking for help. So... 1. a deep fried dough, a pastry if you will. 2. the dough is an egg batter dough. 3. external texture is crinkly due to frying not due to additional items rolled onto it, eg. semolina, or polenta. 4. the dough is approx. 4-5 mm thick after frying. 5. when cool it is hard and firm, i.e. it does not collapse as if entrapped air has escaped. 6. the dough is rolled, filled, sealed, and blanched in a deep fryer, or perhaps oven baked. What I've done so far. a) tried various recipes from the web, to no avail. b) take it back to absolute basics starting with a simple pasta dough (2 : 3 – flour : eggs) c) modify this basic recipe by making a batter (2 : 1 – eggs : flour) d) separate the whites and beat them to stiff peaks, fold in the yolks and flour to make a batter, then add the remaining flour to make the dough. e) same as (d) but make a batter with the yolks and flour and fold the whites in. f) same as (e) but swap out one of the eggs for water – makes the most excellent airy batter for dipping and deep frying things, really, top shelf. Results. :- plain pasta dough is firm but does not have the external texture I'm looking for. :- the egg batters became progressively more leavened, soft nice eating texture when hot, but collapsed when cold. :- the egg and water produced better results for the external texture, but same problem with the softening of the dough on cooling. What am I missing? What am I doing wrong? My next planned step is to lightly beat the whites before folding them into the batter, but don't fully understand what I'm doing, I feel, in order to know where to turn to next. Would love some help. Cheers and thanks for reading this far.

There are a number of Bahn Mi recipes out there. The one I recommend is based on the one from "Real Vietnamese Cooking" p.28 by Tracy Lister and Andreas Pohl. The recipe can be summed up as: AP flour 100% – Rice Flour 16% – Salt 3% – white granulated Sugar 8% – Dry Yeast 7% – lukewarm Water 91% I prefer a little less salt in my breads and so normally knock the salt down to 1.5% - 2% Edit ( Oops Didn't see Helen up further in the thread, my bad.) Helen's Recipes on Youtube does a good job of describing the baking process. Addendum: Alternative recipe translated, from video of a commercial bakery in action, on Michael Duong's youtube channel. 1/2 an egg, 600g water, 1kg bread flour, 100g salt, 60g yeast, 60g Additives (Improver?) – cut 120g per portion. Proof in humidity cabinet at 35-40°C. Bake at 210°C for 12 minutes. [noted: no rice flour in this one ]

Interesting topic. I first started off with two butter knives. The alternative at the time was to hand/fingertip rub the butter into the flour. Later I started using hand held pastry cutter with wires rather than blades, but found it tiresome when working on large dough batches. After that I move over to a coarse mesh seive, kinda like a cake rack or biscuit cooling rack, this worked exceptionally well, producing uniform pea/corn sized kernels of butter/flour mix but is was tough on the hands.After that I discovered the "Creaming Method" of making Piecrust in a four volume set of bakers books from around the 1900's, wich made using the Kitchen mixer for piecrust a boon. The only food processor I have at the moment is driven by a stick blender, and I've only used it (recently) for making small amounts of pasta dough. I find the steel blades tend to cut the dough up too much for it to form a cohesive ball. Having said that, its realy fast and dumping the dough out for half a dozen turns to knead together is not a troublesome issue.

Hi folks, I'm based in Hamburg, Germany but come originally from Australia. Being an Expat, makes one homesick for many of the foods we normally take for granted. As such I've been learning about pies, pasties, sausage rolls, clotted cream, dim-sims (not dim-sum), chiko rolls, and Pancake Parlour's famous "Tabriz Sauce." My current culinary challenge is all wrapped up in pastry and dough so I'm here looking for help in unravelling another one of Australia's great culinary mysteries and the underlying techniques behind it. Cheers, and thanks for bringing me into the fold. The Pieman.