skchai

I also love the crusty bottom (nurungji) of dolsot bibimbab, as do most people who've tried it. It surprises me that some other rice-eating cultures don't enjoy it as much. In Japan, it seems that "okoge" is not traditionally appreciated, and I'm not aware of any recipes that deliberately make use of it (other than Korean imports like ishiyaki bibinba). Does anyone know of any? Also, colloquiallisms incorporating "koge" or "okoge" seem slightly pejorative, e.g. the luckless "kogepan man", or the use of "okoge" to refer to women who enjoy spending time with homosexual men (not that this is anything that deserves to be derogated, but unfortunately the word seems to be used in this fashion). Also, why is it "bibinba" in Japanese instead of "bibinbappu"? The ultimate lovers of rice crust must be the Iranians, for whom the "tah dig" is the ultimate prize. In fact Iranian recipes often called for oil and yoghurt to be specially mixed into the bottom layer of rice to enchance the crust. Perhaps we could try to do something analogous to make super-bibimbab!?

Thanks! Which makes we wonder, what, traditionally, is the beverage that is drunk with vindaloo? Is it feni (distilled palm liquor)? Toddy?

Regarding the etymology - I am almost certain that it is from: P -> E Vinho -> Wine Alho -> Garlic Vinegar in Portuguese is I believe vinagre - so it's unlikely that it's the basis for the word vindaloo. Also, there is a popular dish in Portuguese cookery called 'Carne de Vinho e Alhos", for which pork is cooked in white wine and white wine vinegar. Lacking a steady supply of wine, it seems quite plausible that the Goans eliminated and replaced white wine vinegar with palm vinegar. Doesn't Sorpotel also contain innards (liver, kidney, etc.), while Vindaloo usually does not? Or can Vindaloo contain innards? Is Vindaloo usually eaten with sannas as well? Or it more commonly served with rice?

I'm not sure where this fits into the topic (I got disoriented after reading the last few dozen back-and-forths), but the use of pine needles to scent food is actually a common and traditional technique in Korea. There is a very popular Korean dish called songpyeon in which sweetened sesame-seed filled ricecakes are steamed in a container filled with pine needles. Songpyeon is eaten by nearly everybody during Chuseok, or Korean Thanksgiving. The pine scent does a good job of helping to balance the otherwise cloying sesame/sugar/rice combination; sometimes chopped mugwort is added to the dough for the same reason. There is no reason to believe that any self-conscious innovation for its own sake was involved in the origin of this festive food. It evolved from related foods, making use of available ingredients, and was accepted because people thought (and still think) it tastes good. This is presumably also true for other examples of traditional dishes that incorporate tree-ish fragrances, such as the use of camphor (hey, it's an insect repellent!) in Szechuanese tea-smoked ducks. My point is who would want to eat something that tasted like a pine cone. It's the whim of a chef who's trying to create the uncreated. Even if I liked the dish--which wouldn't be the case--I would have a difficult time appreciating it as real cuisine. It's like Walt Disney breathing down Thomas Keller's throat, being nut-kicked by a Red Bulled Adria. It's too much, it doesn't appeal to me.... Despite the part about being "nut-kicked by a Red Bulled Adria", CWS writes very clearly, so it's pretty straightforward to extract these two pillars of his argument: (1) No one would want to eat something that tastes of pine. (2) Use of pine is not "real cuisine" and reflects the chef's "whim". I think this post and a number of earlier ones establish that (1) is untrue. We have the reports of Trio diners in this thread who have raved about the pine-needle dish (dishes). Now, a curmudgeon might argue that these diners have been psychologically primed by hype to expect something great, and that any perceived deliciousness is entirely a result of that priming. But even if we were willing to be so cynical, it would be hard to make a similar argument about a dish as traditional as songpyeon. Regarding (2), there is no question that pine needles are part of "real cuisine" in the Korean context. Thus CWS would have to argue from the position of cultural relativism - that pine needles may fill some criterion of real cuisine within a Confucian/dog-eating context but inevitably reflect a chef's whim within a Midwestern Calvinist/hog-eating context. However, this would require a very, very reductionist view of culture!

I am under the impression what this cut was in fact invented in Honolulu, since it's been around here for at least 25-some odd years. Am not sure why it is called LA Kalbi, then, except perhaps for the fact that many Koreans may assume that anything invented by Korean-Americans must be from LA! That's interesting. . . it seems to imply that in Japan, the term kalbi is used generically to refer to almost any kind of beef yakiniku. In Korea, if it doesn't have a bone, then it's not kalbi. Kalbi literally means "ribs". But I guess in the U.S. we do have things such as "country-style ribs" and "riblets" that have no ribs! A question about "rosu". Can you help me with the etymology? Since it's written in katakana, is it derived from "roast"? Or something else like (gulp) "rose"? Thanks!

I don't prefer for my galbi to be sliced this way. I like it sliced around the bone. I like to gnaw on meat around the bone. It's SOOOO GOOOD. The better bbq restaurants in LA only serve galbi with the meat sliced around the bone. I'm always amazed by how different the texture can vary when meat is sliced differently (i.e. flank against the grain.). . . You're right. LA Kalbi is something that is associated with more with Korean fast food (at least in Hawai`i) or cooking kalbi at home or on a picnic. I guess the advantage of it is that you don't have to butterfly it to make the "flag" of meat attached to the bone. But in most mid-to-upper range restaurants kalbi will always be cut in the more traditional fashion. Even in LA!

I would like know which of the Madhur Jaffrey's cook book has Chettinad recipe with urad dal. Cooking with Prashad has no urad dal and I am used to making following this book. Madhur Jaffrey's A Taste of India has a recipe for Chettinad Fried Chicken on p 206. Uses only 1/2 tsp urad dal so this might be the one.

Thanks for the link! I had fun looking at it. Yeah the U.S. menus seem to be adjusted to take out some of the more esoteric items. For instance, I don't think any of the "Tokusenhin" are on the U.S. menu. However, the P-Toro is here at in the U.S.! Also the Kurobuta Sausage! I didn't mention them before because they're pork (at some point, I think this was a thread about beef). Must check it out for that alone. . . Actually, I may have given you the L.A. menu by mistake instead of the Honolulu one. But they seem pretty similar though the L.A. menu doesn't seem to have the negi-miso or nego-shio. Seems they have a branch in Taiwan as well. . .

Right you are. Bulgogi is somehow the poor half-brother of Kalbi at most Korean restaurants, besides being the stepchild of BBQ (and thus not even true BBQ, thunder the ghosts of Arthur Bryant and Louie Mueller). In Korea, it's pretty typical for bulgogi to be about half the price of kalbi, which is the king of meats. Bulgogi is somehow considered to be a more home-style dish and a lot of people wouldn't consider ordering it in a restaurant. So -> Cow Bul -> Fire Gogi -> Meat Sogogi -> Beef Bulgogi -> Grilled Boneless Beef Dwaeji Bulgogi -> Grilled Boneless Pork All of this is "pure" Korean - no chinese characters involved, even if I could input them. But don't ask me why only some grilled meats are called bulgogi and other kinds are not. I don't know!

Koreans are pretty unusual among East Asians (other than Vietnamese) in their long-time high estimation of beef. Perhaps this is why the rise in beef availability and consumption among Japanese has been accompanied by a boom in the popularity of Korean-style Yakiniku restaurants. Interestingly, this implies that Korean-style restaurants have been among the biggest beneficiaries of the increased influx into Japan of Australian and New Zealand beef! Talk about globalization . . . Which brings me to a related question (I don't know if this fits in this topic or the one in the Japan group). A branch of the Japanese "Korean Yakiniku" chain Gyukaku opened in Honolulu a while ago, and looking at their menu it struck me again how wide the divergence is between Japanese-Korean food and Korean-Korean food. Apart from the (scandalous!) fact that you have to pay for kim chee and other side dishes (which prevented me from actually visiting the place), the main thing that struck me was the fact that the offering of meats, despite the ubiquitous "karubi", was so different in both content and conception from what you find at a Korean-Korean restaurant. At Gyukaku in Hawai'i, you have the following beef menu: Gyukaku claims to have 600+ branches in Japan. Torakris, have you ever been to one? What did you think of the food? Is the Hawaii menu representative of what they serve in Japan? Is the Gyukaku menu representative of Japanese Yakiniku restaurant menus? In contrast, no Korean-Korean grilled-meat specialty restaurant I know of in Korea or the U.S. offers mix-and-match marinades. On the other hand, they tend to offer far more choice regarding cuts of meat, including variety meats. They might include (again, we're just talking about the beef dishes here): Kalbi - same as "Karubi", only less sweet Saeng Kalbi - Kalbi without marinade Suwon Kalbi - Big Fat Kalbi Idong Kalbi - Teeny-weeny Kalbi L.A. Kalbi - Kalbi cut perpendicular to the bone in ~1/4-1/2 inch slices, with three or four bones to a slice. Bulgogi - this is typically marinated ribeye or sirloin. Basically what is referred to as "rosu" in Japan. There is also a "rosu-gui" in Korea, but it is something different (see below) Anshim - this is, roughly speaking, the tenderloin. A kind of bulgogi, but more expensive. Sogum Gui / Rosu Gui - boneless bulgogi meat without any marinade, cut in squares, more thickly than regular bulgogi. Usually dipped in roasted sesame oil mixed with salt. Jumulleok - basically rosu gui that has been massaged into relative tenderness (using hands and various other body extremities) along with the sesame oil and salt. Chadol Baegi - Brisket. For some reason it is not that cheap in most Korean restaurants. Certain people like the chewiness a lot. Jebi Churi - Actually not sure what this is but tastes like Chadol Baegi sort of. I think it is chuck steak basically . Not as cheap as you would expect either. Yang - tripe. Both honeycomb and the other kind (ergh, the one sometimes called gras double - anyone can help me here?). Gopchang / Naejang - small intestine. Hyeomit-Gui - tongue. These will typically make up the choices on menu at Korean restaurants in Hawaii too, even those labelled "Yakiniku" to attract the Japanese tourist crowd. There is something else that is ubiquitious in Hawaii known as "Korean BBQ". It is basically Korean-Local fast food, but that would be digressing to much. . .

Wow, thanks again! I'm learned so much you and others on this forum in the past couple weeks that I could have never picked up reading cookbooks. I never realized that kheer was sometimes made with sauteed rice. Moreover, I always assumed that rice was the primary thickening agent, not the reduction of the milk. No wonder the kheer I've made has always turned out so stodgy! Suvir, you are really one for making us novices feel important! It wouldn't be wrong to ask at all to ask where I live - I'm in Honolulu, Hawaii - I think I wrote a post earlier about how difficult it is to get Indian ingredients here, though just about everything else is available. He seems to be among the most prominent of those who are seeking to make Indian restaurant food into something that can be marketed as creative cuisine to the international community. Which makes it all the more suprising that he hasn't had more exposure in the West - why for instance did his wonderful Prasad never find a British or American publisher? On the other hand, he seems to be quite popular in Singapore - I've enjoyed his columns at Asiacuisine.com's CW Magazine quite a lot. I've never tried it - cooking the besan in ghee somehow sounded more appealing to me. However, I'm not saying that cooking it alone couldn't properly brown the flour, just that it seemed more likely to brown unevenly or burn. I don't know. I searched for the string "Chandra Padmanabhan" on the web, but nearly every single hit I got was for the Dakshin cookbook rather than for her personally. However, I did find an article in The Hindu dated July 2001 that mentioned that she was still associated with Madras Musings and also the co-publisher of the Indian Review of Books (!). This seems to indicate that, at least at the time, she still lived in Madras/Chennai. Perhaps your friend was thinking about Carol Selva Rajah, an Malaysian/Australian NRI who was a consultant for the Australian edition of the book and is a well-known cookbook writer in her own right. Sounds wonderful! I am tasting them right now in my mind. . . On a different note, perhaps as my next dubious experiment I will try roasting another type of bean flour to see if the aroma and taste are anywhere near as enticing - perhaps mung bean flour as a first shot, since mung beans are already used in a number of sweets in Southeast Asian cookery. I didn't realize she was quite that influential! One interesting thing about her books is that dishes from all states are presented together, implicitly advocating for a pan-regional and truly national Indian cuisine. I wonder about the extent to which she was a pioneer in this regard or she simply followed a trend that was already occuring. This also gets me to wondering about the extent to which, for the growing urban middle class, restricted eating patterns based on region, caste, and religion are truly being erased. Cookbooks like Tarla Dalal's and the rise of udipi cafes throughout the country might seem to suggest that this is so. However, the continued popularity of having tiffin delivered from one's home to one's office seems to indicate that the middle class still remains suspicious of the food of the "other". Bingo! Thanks Prasad! My thanks as well!

Suvir, many thanks for your detailed and generous response to my inquiry. Neither am I - nothing is more off-putting in a sweet than consuming raw flour! The question I had about Yamuna Devi's recipe is that she roasts the besan without ghee, cooking the ghee separately with the syrup. Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to try either. But your comment piqued by curiousity and I did a web search. This recipe on Bawarchi.com (part of Sify) seems to have a very similar ingredient list as Mysore Pak, but as you mentioned the proportion of flour is larger. Also, the syrup is added to the flour mixture rather than the other way around, and the final product is rolled out in bar cookie fashion. (Mysore Pak would be too crumbly to roll?) I agree with you completely. I've probably spent as much time simply leafing through that book as I have any cookbook I own. Yet the recipes can sometimes be slightly cryptic to the outsider. It seems the book was first published in India, then republished (with the beautiful photographs added) in Australia. Thanks for that insight and recollection. I never realized that Besan Ladoo could be made in such a way! All my experience has been with store-bought product which was too sweet and hardly roasted at all. Hence my impression that it was less roasted than Mysore Pak. I guess in either case it's just a matter of who makes it. Sondhi Khusboo - I feel like I've learned something very profound! Given how prolific she is and how many books she has sold in India, it is notable how little her reputation has not carried over to the U.S., even among fans of Indian food. Perhaps one reason is that she writes Miss Beeton-style collections of recipes for the harried housewife rather than Madhur Jaffrey-style ethnographies that might appeal to inquisitive foreigners. Her recipes do not Another major Indian foodie whose profile in the U.S. is notably modest is Jiggs Kalra. But this seems to be for very different reasons - he assumes a very knowledgable audience, and though he is a good English stylist, his form of writing might be jarring to foreigners - how, for instance, do you translate into American, "Resist (the Jingha Achaar) or the stomach will go for for a six"? Ahh . . . as in Pakistan! Prasad, thanks for your insights: That's quite interesting! There is no precedent I know of for roasting flour (of any kind) in the West prior to coating meats for cooking. Roasted flour or roux is confined to gravies. West African grilled meats are sometimes covered in the coating of chopped roasted peanuts, but that's not quite the same thing! Thanks for this info as well. I guess a similar idea in principle to seviyan payasam? While everyone knows that Indian cooking makes sophisticated use of spices and flavorings, I'm always impressed by the wide range of cooking techniques that are largely unknown in the in the West. Which brings me to another question: contrary to this principle, the rice for kheer / rice payasam doesn't seem to be sauteed in ghee prior to the addition of milk. Why not? I realize there may be no clear answer to this. . .

Very glad that Smartotron started this thread. Thanks to Suvir and Prasad2 for their info and reminiscences. Mysore Pak is interesting, even fascinating, to me because it is a flour-based sweet in which the flour (besan) is cooked before incorporation with the liquid ingredients. Can one think of any other sweet (Indian or otherwise) for which this is so? It's also interesting because despite the deceptive banality of its ingredient list, it provides such a complex taste sensation! The brittle texture is perhaps the most notable part, but (as has been noted already) it is complemented by a light, airy structure when the sweet is made properly. Furthermore, there's a balance in taste between the sweetness and the strong roasted (almost savory) flavor from the besan. A somewhat silly question, but what, generically, is a Pak? Are there other "Paks" out there other than Mysore Pak? As someone has attempted to make Mysore Pak a few times, I have been interested in the variations in recipes that I've found. Perhaps the most important is how and when the besan is added to the syrup: One technique, and intuitively the best to me (so I haven't really tried the other ways), is similar to that in the recipe by generously provided by Prasad2. The besan is cooked in the ghee until light brown before being added to the boiling syrup. However, other techniques that I've seen (this is from memory, so I apologize if the attributions are inaccurate): Cooking the besan by itself before adding to ghee-laced syrup (Yamuna Devi). What would be the advantage of this? Wouldn't it increase the chances of burning the besan and hinder incorporation into the final mixture? (This seems analogous in some ways to the roux vs. browned-flour issue in making thickening Western gravies.) Heating the besan in ghee for only a few seconds before adding to syrup (Dakshin). This presumably is for those who would prefer less of a roasted flavor, but do such people exist? Isn't the roasted flavor the primary reason why you would eat Mysore Pak as opposed to Besan Ladoo or some such alternative? Perhaps most strangely (at least in my opinion), there are those (Tarla Dalal) who advocate pouring uncooked besan into the boiling syrup. Again, why would you want to do this? She also advocates exotic techniques such as mixing the gram flour with plain white flour, and (sit down when you read this) pouring three cups of ghee into the flour/syrup mixture, setting it in the pan, poking a hole in in it, then pouring out most of the ghee! Has anyone heard of such a thing?!

Thanks, Torakris. Since 20's to 40's were during the period of Japanese colonial rule in Korea, it would be fair to assume that the urban shops and restaurants in which these yoshoku and bread dishes originated were either Japanese-owned or had a significant Japanese clientele, regardless of whether they were located in Tokyo or Seoul ("Keijo"). Furthermore, they would have to had their menus in the Japanese language. None of which settles the problem of determining the ethnicity of the people who "invented" curry rice, tonkatsu, etc. In fact, it greatly complicates the problem. Such a fun topic, which in another type of forum would be the trigger for a big flame war across the East Sea (no! Sea of Japan!!) Most of the names for yoshoku or Western-style pastries in Japan and Korea are based on borrowings from European languages or Chinese characters, e.g. J -> K -> E shokupan -> shikppang -> sliced white bread shuukuriimu -> shukeurim -> choux pastry / cream puff (it took me a long time to figure out that this wasn't a translation of "shoe cream") karee -> kare -> curry omuraisu -> omraisu -> omelette-covered rice However, the name for at least one dish has in part "pure Japanese" origin: soboropan -> soboroppang -> sugar crumb-topped bun. (Soboro originally was a kind of minced seafood, then a popular minced meat dish that is allegedly resembled by sugar crumb topping.) Another name, tonkatsu -> donkkatsu -> pork cutlet, contains a Chinese character for pig (sorry, I don't have kanji capabilities) that is used far more in Japan than it is in Korea. On the other hand, there isn't a single commonly used name for yoshoku or Western-style pastry that is based on "pure Korean" as far as I know. So at any rate, regardless of who invented it, the origin of yoshoku pretty clearly took place within a Japanese language-dominated cultural sphere. . .

Since there is no clear-cut category called "curry" in Indian cuisine, it's hard to comment on whether this is so, but in general dishes with gravy can be cooked in a variety of equipment, including karahi/karhai but also degchi (pot) or tava (teppan?). A karhai tends to be somewhat deeper that a wok and is similar to what is often called a "balti" in Britain. From a taste point of view I'm not sure why it'd make a difference, except for surface area and pre-sauteing of the meat (which doesn't occur in traditional Indian curry). Did the NHK folks say what made it more tender? Regarding strange Japanese curry, I believe (but this may be wishful thinking) that the Coco Ichibanyas here in Honolulu carry SPAM curry. . .

Yaki -> roasted / cooked Tori -> bird Somewhat confusingly, however: Chicken is the only bird, other than occasionally duck, that is served at yakitori restaurants (unless you count quail eggs). Also, some "yakitori" may contain non-poultry animal products, such as the somewhat popular asparagus-and-bacon. Robatayaki is more general but also implies a different ambience, a bit more elevated and never "yatai" (food cart). Also the use of a paddle to get the food from the "robata" (flame grill). If you live in the Bay Area, check out Kirala in Berkeley. For more info, you can look at a description here, at the menupage, or here, at citysearch.

Suvir, Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and your greetings. I have already learned a great deal by participating in these forums and am sure I will learn much more in the future. My answers are interspersed with your comments/questions: Having never tried Dalda products, I was wondering what you found deficient about them. Is it (1) their lack of overall quality, (2) opposition in principle to the use of ghee substitutes, (3) swadeshi opposition to using "Indian" products made by foreign-owned Unilever, or (4) something else? Thanks for saying that - I'm not sure I deserve any kudos! I simply enjoy cooking things I have never tried before and happen to love Indian food. Yes, I did get the sequel. There are in general a lot more foreign recipes in the second volume than in the first. I have tried to cook a few of the dishes, including the Indonesian / Malaysian rendang (dry coconut milk curry) - seems to my nonexpert judgement that the foreign recipes are fairly authentic, though rendang is more Malaysian style (dry Indian-style spices) rather than Javanese (wet spices such as lemon grass, galingale, etc). Thanks, and a million more thanks in advance to you and all the members of this August forum. Actually it is quite difficult to find Indian ingredients in Hawaii. Despite being one of the most culturally diverse places on earth, one thing we lack is a great deal of Indian culture! Our best North Indian restaurants (IMHO) are run by a Fijian NRI and our best South Indian restaurant (again IMHO) is run by a Malaysian NRI, so you get the idea. There is no specialty Indian grocery store in the entire state, as far as I know! The only options we have for ingredients are to try (1) natural food shops, which carry some Indian ingredients, (2) pan-Asian supermarkets, such as 99 Ranch Market, or (3) order off the web. A Tamil friend of mine actually stocks up on MTR products when he visits his sister in Michigan because there is so much more available there than here! So, all in all, a pretty sad situation, but we hope things will get better soon. I have cooked Indian food for nearly 20 years (since I was a college student -so this dates me)! My first exposure was through Time-Life's Foods of India book, Madhur Jaffrey, Julie Sahni, etc. I spent much of that time in Northern California, so the access to ingredients problem was hardly as acute. After returning to Hawaii (where I was raised), I've tried to keep things up with some difficulty. The web has been a real godsend in that regard - providing me with access to recipes, retailers, and of course communities like this one, as well as a steady diet of cricket, Bollywood, etc. as a side-effect.

A story about the Empress of India restaurant in the Lakes Region of England seems to be making the rounds in various newspapers. A prominent businessman, Moshinali Darugar, was told that he could not get a seat because the restaurant was full. However, when the white manager of his hotel called, he was able to get table right away. Here is the justification put forth by the assistant manager: What are your feelings about this? Can any of you who are restauranters empathize with the pressures that led to this decision (even if you do not condone the decision itself)? Are there really such major and systematic differences in the types of Indian food that Asians and Westerners like?

Suvir, Unfortunately, Dalda products are not even available in my area (Hawai`i). I ordered the cookbook from an e-retailer. As for the recipes, I have tried a few, using either Crisco or butter or some combination thereof in place of vanaspati. Most of the dishes seem to be fairly standard Moghul cuisine (except of course for the use of vanaspati instead of desi ghee). I found some of the halva recipes interesting - for instance a marrow halva. Their paratha recipes turned out reasonably well for me. The curries and pullaos used too much vanaspati / ghee for my taste but perhaps it is there for reasons of tradition rather than commerce. There is a sequel to the Dalda cookbook (somehow smaller in dimensions) that contains recipes for Middle Eastern, Indonesian, and Thai (even in Pakistan!) dishes.

Thanks so much BBhasin. You were a great help!

I've recently become interested in greasy things and my interest was piqued when I got ahold of the Dalda cookbook published by Lever Brothers Pakistan, where every other recipe calls for Dalda banaspati. Being that banaspati seems to refer to ghee-flavored hydrogenated vegetable shortening, one would expect that it would be a relatively recent invention and thus have to an English name rather than "banaspati". Can anyone tell me when and how it was invented, as well the origin/meaning of the name? Thank you . . .

Well, you can't say "mucilaginous" without saying "mmmmm", I guess... What we consider "slimey" . . . Subsaharan and North African stews are famous for that "draw" that makes them easy to scoop out without utensils (see other thread on East/Central African food). Appreciation for slimey stews is not unheard of in the West, e.g. gumbo (a west African word for okra), callaloo. IMHO a slimey stew is superior to a pasty one thickened with flour.

Thanks so much for the warm welcome Kristen. I glad to have found this community and hope to learn a lot from people like you!

Yukhoe (the weird, official romanization) literally means "meat sashimi". K <-> J: Yuk <-> niku, hoe <-> kai (?) = sashimi. teolseot <-> ishiyaki

The raw crab (called kejang) is not really considered a kimchi. It's in the class of jeot or preserved fishy foods. Other popular kinds are made up of squid, tiny shrimps, fish guts or roe, etc.