Wendy DeBord

I've begun testing at work so I have consistant ingredients and oven. Yesterday I made Karens cake and the RBL recipe (will post results when I completed testing all). Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I only found 7 recipes offered up. 1. Scott W.'s which I posted 2. Lorea's which she then said needed tweeking as written 3 .JanKK's recipe 4. MKFardins recipe 5 RBL's recipe 6. Illustrated bakings recipe 7. Karens recipe I need someone to post the ILLustrated Bakings recipe, I don't have access to it, please? But things are still open for the BEST cake. So if your holding onto that recipe please post it, I'll try to make them all. Jodicalhoun, please post that recipe. Are you familar with egullets policies on posting copyrighted recipes? If not, you CAN list the ingredients and amounts as published by the author, but you MUST put the dirrections in your own words. Also don't forget to give the author and books name (I know you did, but I wrote that for anyone else who might post). It's still helpful if you bake the base recipe were working from Scott Clark Wooleys FIRST, to be certain the recipe your offering up is indeed better then that one, o.k.? This will save us all time and work. Thanks!

I agree and disagree with some of your points Tan. I understand not underestimating your customers. BUT with that I say, don't understand their ability to detect desserts that they themselfs could have made better at home. Don't underestimate the publics desire for great food-whether it's a simple item like brulee or a "daring" dessert. You can't fool them with exotic flavors. You can't hide a lack of ability using overly complicated complex assortment of flavors. Everything indeed probably has been done before. But theres still room for improvement in making great desserts that people already know of and like. A great apple tart doesn't have to be plain, you can perfect it endlessly and tie in the daring ingredients your interested in playing with. In that goal I never find work boring or people bored with not "daring" desserts. I'm not so sure that the people doing these daring desserts do make a great apple tart (I'm talking in general, in general pc's doing daring desserts, not specificly the list of chefs in the article you've posted). I've heard of some pretty famous chefs doing some stinkers too. Again, I do believe that theres a place for these daring desserts, honestly! I just hate seeing so many people doing them all over the place and it being done by chefs not skilled enough to pull them off well. Those chefs getting publicty by publishing "brownie" cookbooks are educating the consumer. The consumer now knows how to bake a brownie better then the crap they can buy from us professionals. The consumer puts their money into what they want, henseforth the huge sales in "comfort foods". If you notice theres less dessert sales happening and more people passing on what their offered in many restaurants.......and less and less pc jobs!

I used a cookie cutter to cut, since I don't have access to a guitar. It does gunk up but if your keep cleaning it off and spraying it with pan coating it works well. I did tulip shaped marshmellows on a stick, a photo of this is posted in my Easter thread. No need or reason to refridgerate them. They hold for many days if you wrap them well in plastic (even cut ones).

I agree strongly with Annies points. It's important to be thin because the weight of the fondant pulls itself downward. I also have noticed considerable differences in brands of fondant. Since your making yours you may need to do more adjustin in your recipe. You wrote you only do a thin pre-coat of frosting under the fondant. I don't use a thick coating but I definately use more buttercream than a pre-coat. I think if your frosting is too thin, then your fondant might not be ahearing as well as it should to the sides of the cake-so that would allow gravity to drag it down like your experiencing. I've dealt with horrible condensation problems with refriderated cakes, but I've never had my fondant sage because of the humity....it can sort of melt-but thats different. I can understand not wanting to pay the expense of shipping purchased fondant, but it's so wondeful to have conviently ready at hand all the time. You can buy all the special ingredients you need over the internet from several very good sources, do you need leads? Do you have a website, I'm really enjoying looking at your cakes, I'd love to see more?

I remember you too, welcome back! I'm glad your enjoying this career, it's crazy but heck-I love it- it always feels like fun to me. I press the sides first also. Dealing with sweetend condensed milk can get messy, but so can folding gallons on mousse (all up your arms). I like cans of s.c.milk, sometimes I get bags and you wind up not being able to get all of it out of the bag. This time around chef got me a bucket of it....I'm dreading that-not sure how I'm going to use it with-out making a mess. I've heard alot of people from the hot side complain that they hate pastry because it's messy and they can't stand sticky hands.........I don't notice that anyone-but I bet I wash my hands 3 or 4 dozen times aday with-out thinking. The bakerys I've worked at didn't have as nearly as many sinks as restaurant kitchens so washing wasn't as convient.

TP, wondeful cakes, I really like your style!! Particularly how you bases are considered in your total design. I only use meringue based buttercreams on regular cakes-not novelty or wedding cakes because I never found it to hold up in the heat. And I'm talking about just the room temp. heat of which I work in (it's typically over 90F). So I'm pretty baffled reading you and Karens findings....makes me think I need to do more exploring on this. When I do wedding cakes and novelty cakes I use a high ratio (sweetex brand) shortening not a regular shortening, with butter 2:1. When I've been out of high ratio and forced to use standard shortening there really is a huge difference........the standard shortening used 2:1 with butter doesn't hold up at all.

I'm not in the loop, I don't read the times like everyone else to keep up, so I have no comment on that issue. I'm a realist, ..... I'm worried about our jobs and this pc industry. "Daring desserts" belong in the appropriate HANDS AND RESTAURANT. I see too damn much being 'different for the sake of being different'. I think this does hurt our image and industry. I stand/serve at my buffet tables regularly, listening and watching (I also overhear alot about the hot side too) it's pretty enlightening to hear what people think when they don't know who you are overhearing them. Restaurant pc's need to listen and observe more outside of the kitchen, in my opinion. We work long intense hours surrounded by other foodies but don't know the typical diners opinions and thoughts at all. When a dessert doesn't sell, we blame the customers or the waitstaff, it's never something that we did wrong. In every other job you have to sell your product and make a profit or you loose your job. Is that whats happened to our jobs? We still need to please our boss. And our boss is the client who does or doesn't buy dessert. Who will or won't keep us in our job. Yes, of course theres restaurants where these desserts are appropriate, but not that many. Customers can choose from crappy frozen stuff chefs buy in or "dangerous" desserts like this, instead they run away all together. I have to coddle them back to trust me at my job. What others do in the same industry does effect me. I say quality is quality regardless of the ingreidents used being traditional or not and being different just to be different is nothing.

Welcome Spyddie! It's a big baking market in this world and we do welcome all opinions here. This topic (buttercream) has always been a more hotly debated issue on baking sites. Theres definately two sides, I deal with it too. Sometimes it's a hard topic for me personally because I do have to conform and consider it my job to give people what they want as far as pastries. I've gone against the crowd on many issues, over the years I've spent on line. My first post at one site (years ago) really hit the fan and everyone was blasting me (it sucked). But the best part is, how it does make you think and re-evaluate: either confirming your thoughts or opening your mind to new ones. Debate is fine here. In fact, I think it's alot more interesting than everyone jumping on the same wagon. Makes us think more. Of which I now have a question for you, or two. First I rarely have used pasturized eggs or any frozen egg product, so........I'm pretty clueless on them. I thought those types of whites wouldn't whip properly, no? And I'm a little confused about a 30 minutes whipping. Are you doing that on high speed? How come they don't become grossly dry after that much time? Also what about shelf-life with these? When I've had them in, the chefs have held them a really long time past their expiration date in the cooler. Makes me nervous...... Whats your opinion on holding them? Granted you probably go thru them too quick to see that happen, but they are a bit of a mystery to me. How to say this gracefully........hum....... don't read into this o.k.?.......I'm not so great with wording sometimes.......just a fyi- Lesley is a pro with I think two books published on baking. So you're both heavy hitters. Quite frankly I'm amazed by the quality of bakers we have here, there are several big names (or however one phrases that) and many very knowledgeable pastry chefs here so I'm thinking you're going to love it here Spyddie.

Hum, it's interesting to read your results and opinions. In the photo which accompanies the recipe- her cake looks quite different then yours. Her's appears to be more souffle like, it's much darker on the exterior and definately colapses more in the center. I'm glad to read you liked it, it sounds good to me................but now I'm wondering why the differences. Did the food stylist alter the recipe or could there be a mis-print? I usually have good results with her recipes and they typically do look alot like the example shown. Oh well, the taste is the most important factor. P.S. Thanks for posting the pictures along with your opinion, it really does add alot!

My god women, I'm dieing to see your work!

RMR, yes the recipe is from his book. I own it but can't say I've studied it that closely..........I don't recall him writing much about ingredients-but I can't be certain with-out looking again. This book is definately more of a " cake decorators" book then a formula/recipe baking book, even though he's got some good recipes there's not alot of them. Really as I think about it, cocoa powder sort of deserves it's own thread, which we should tie back into this thread a little later since you all tell me it has alot of impact on flavor. I'm definately a novice on this topic. I've never had any of the finer brands to work with (and I don't bake at home if I can avoid it). If anyone has some knowledge/experience with brands and or comparisions other then the basics I'd love the education, please start a thread on it.

Wendy, "So I guess I'd ask you, why do you want to use a flavored cream cheese spread?" Ah, I thought you aren't supposed to use cream cheese spread but cream cheese blocks for baking? We do have flavored cream cheese spread but I think they're onion flavored. Yes Kew your right, typically you use dense blocks of cream cheese for baking. BUT the question was, could they subsitute one for the other. I don't ever buy that type of cream cheese-BUT to the best of my knowledge there isn't anything in those spreads that would prevent you from doing a equal weight subsitution. The main thing is you can't do an equal volume subsitution because the flavored softened cheese has alot of air whipped into it. It would be a darn good idea to look at the ingredient list on the flavored spread AND perhaps they do vary from brand to brand, are they pure cheese? Does it include anything other then whipped cheese and flavoring? What country do you live in Kew (just curious since I've never really traveled and don't know much about other countries)? In the States where I'm at you can buy almost any flavor and combination in these spreads that you can dream of........and some that seem down right gross to me.

I ditto JanKK's response.......I don't see why you couldn't. But I'm not totally sure why you'd want to for these reasons: the flavored cheeses cost more money, I think you can get a better flavor all on your own. So I guess I'd ask you, why do you want to use a flavored cream cheese spread? Is there a flavor that you want to achieve and don't know how to adjust your recipe to acheive it? Also if your new to using cream cheese in baked goods-as Martha would say "they're a good thing", sorry had to write that. Seriously cream cheese, sour cream, buttermilk all add extra fat=/flavor/moisture to baked goods. Very often/typically recipes that include these ingredients in addition to your regular butter, flour, eggs are recipes worth trying and even seeking (in some items) in recipes, there like a little extra insurance that this item won't be dry.

Welcome Painting, watch out you'll get addicted to this thread. She's been stringing us out now as she gets more and more busy. I hope for your success but I'm going to miss your posts melmck. I wanted to relate the same thoughts Painting shared. At my meger attempt to partner with an newer bakery.........I found their frugalness definately hurt their first opinions from shoppers. You mentioned before that you find it painful to see you money wasted............but I hope you will consider how good and important Painting points are. You don't get do-overs on first impressions. The other crud you mentioned..........just wait until your doors are open and the vultures start begging for donations. Somethings are worth doing, but most that I've known weren't and didn't bring in any decent business. How about those coupon mailers...............sure, if you want the cheapest consumers out there.

Way cool, and that's really a great idea for a get together event for foodies. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall, no wait- just a taste tester. Now that Mothers Day has past I will get to baking and posting photos. Any chance you took some photos to highlight your event Fred? Also, these other mysterious egulleters.........if any of you want to post your 1 to 5 ratings to each or any recipe you tasted with your name that would be cool, all imput is welcome. Otherwise I'll post everyones review under freds name only.

I should taste these before I comment because S.Y. is a fine chef. The only thing that I wanted to mention is my personal preference. I would use lime oil instead of juice, probably cut back on the zest too. I think the lime oil would give you a better taste. And ditto's on cooling your dough before baking and not over beating it.

Martha uses a 8" springform pan, recipe feeds 8. Her cake looks nicely tall, but proportions in photos can be decieving. The center of this cake deflates-thats expected and she dusts it with xxxsugar, serves with strawberries. 3 lb's of cheese does fit into a 9" springform........and according to Marthas dirrections it even fits into a 8".

Ah, I see I was wrong. So yes, can we all make a note of which brand of cocoa you were using when you post your results?

Well theres a huge amount of people in this world that just do 'a job'. They bring little to nothing to their work, it's just work-they do as little as possible waiting for the day to be over, waiting for there paycheck. In your average restaurant waitstaff are not interested in this being a 'career'. So you have to modivate people to do more, care more, etc.... You can preach all day, but that never gets good results from workers (god I've seen that approach just kill atitutes). I think you have to know your waitstaff, those that are compatent get bored-you need to give them something positive to play with or they find the negative to dwell on.

Amuse-definately take Neils advice, he's dead on right!!!! Ganche, perhaps you've been lucky, but eventually your luck will run out. I don't understand how you were able to pour ganche over whipped cream-something is off there. The way to get your sides and tops smooth and ready to pour ganche over it, is to base coat your cake with ganche just like you would have with your butter cream. Use cooled ganche thats the consistancy of butter cream-apply with a spatula. Do not use hot ganche to base coat. HTH

Thanks again to both of you. It all makes sense. I'm very guilty of being in a huge hurry and on a tight budget (too cheap to cut my textured mats, since I pay for all this type of equipment). Thankfully my audience isn't chocolate knowledgable. BUT I do want to become better personally and will take your advice the next time I do similar.

You guys, the photos really add alot to this discusion, thanks so much! Theres a noticeable difference in the exterior color between TP's cake and Kthulls. Mcfradin can you comment on this? Kew, welcome! I hope you enjoy this site. I would like to reccomend to you that you follow the recipes exactly for now. Variations do throw off the experiments. The impact of oreos and decreasing the sugar will definately effect your final product making it an orea cake not a white cake. You could split your batter and play with one half while keeping the other "pure".

Ah, well I now see what I did wrong, thank-you for explaining. What I did wrong- my textured acetate sheets were contacting a cold surface. I was inverting as I placed them on a whole sheet of acetate. Next time I will cut it into squares and place on top where I can see if I've gotten good contact. I can't even tell you the brand of chocolate I had, was lucky to even have some chocolate at this place-I've been working all week with NO semi sweet in the building with Mothers day fast approaching, (I'm ready to scream). It was milk chocolate -which I rarely use to hand dip. Centers were at room temp. round disks. I did have a huge bowl of chocolate tempered, it's temp and holding was fine. Thanks for the advice, I now know what I did wrong.

Yes, I ditto McDuffs response to you. Theres so many ways to make meringue and they all work, it's a pretty forgiving item actually. Definately let the boss be the boss-it's their problem if what they tell you doesn't work. Thats one of the things with baking that causes problems, everyone has their own way thats 'best'. Be open minded, cause theres usually multiple ways to do everything. It only makes you a better chef learning the multiple ways.

I think this gets confusing because were not all talking about the same level dining. What's the best approach in fine dinning like at Trotters, is much different then your average higher end restaurant, not to mention several other levels of dining. Don't we need to break this topic down or be very clear about which level/type of restaurant your speaking of? Theres not one fit that would even work for all. As to the 'not lady like point' I made earilier-again it depends upon what group of people your talking about. In the real money circles-most of the women don't even eat, they push their food around on the plate to look like their eating. Us foodies aren't typical. As I understood it, the reason Dennys uses pictures is because they have alot of people that don't speak english and this lets the point to the photo of what they want. No way photos work across the board. Personally I really like a inclusively coursed meal. I think it works well in most restaurants. AND I want my chef to consider the size of each course so I'll have room for all. I'm not a light weight eater and I never order an app. or dessert, the main course is always too much........and perhaps I'm cheap because I don't want to leave 3/4 of a plate of food behind- I don't take home left overs and never will. Chinesse restaurants give you a size choice as do some steak houses-that appeals to me alot. I'd rather do tapas portions if given a choice!!!