Pan
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Posts posted by Pan
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323 3rd Ave. The former Bar Milano space, according to Chow.
3rd Av. is not the same as 3rd St. I thought you might have been confused but wanted confirmation, because though Rivington St. is close to me, 3rd is closer.
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Why is it that some cocktail bars close at midnight? Recently, I was walking downtown from Midtown with a couple of friends and wanted to stop in at Flatiron Lounge. We arrived at 12:20. All their chairs were upside down, and they were cleaning up. Friend's comment: "If they close at midnight, they're not a serious bar." Irrespective of how good their cocktails may or may not be (seeing that we never got to try any), I sort of agree. New York is a late city; even on weekdays, midnight is not very late. Why, even in San Francisco, bars stay open later than that. So what is it with the attitude of some cocktail bars here? And don't tell me they have to sleep, because they aren't opening at 8 in the morning. Do they think their customers are all early-to-rise stockbrokers or something?
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Now, if the dough was truly raw in the middle, that is a problem. But your remarks as to the "sogginess" and wetness of the pizza make me question how well you really understand the Neapolitan style rather than the typical American imitation of the Neapolitan style.
I'm not sure if I can pass a certification exam to prove that I understand true Neopolitan pizza sufficiently to have my opinion taken seriously, but the center of this one was unpleasant. As I've stated a few times in this thread, I've had several pies at UPN, and they all were pretty wet in the center, but not white and flabby and soggy. I think I was a little surprised about even that level of wetness the first time I encountered that style, but I quickly got over it. So I think I get the concept, I haven't been bothered by it at other places. At Keste, it bothered me/us.
But given all this talk about how these pizzas are "supposed" to be eaten, why does Keste cut them into slices?
I may have previously mentioned in this thread that I was actually surprised that it was reasonable to pick up the slices of pizza in my hands. By way of contrast, and also in response to your "white and soggy" question:
The first time I had pizza in Napoli, I made the mistake of getting one for takeout from the Antica Pizzeria Porta d'Alba, right off the Piazza Dante. When I tried to eat it in Piazza Dante, the toppings kept sliding and I was nearly attacked by a swarm of yellow jackets that wanted to eat the pizza even more than I did. Whereupon, I got an object lesson that this great Neapolitan pizza, unlike New York pizza, is intended to be eaten in the pizzeria with knife and fork. And damn good pizza it is, too! As I remember, it had no char, even on the circumference, and was indeed "white and soggy" in the middle. And it isn't divided into slices but presented whole.
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'inoteca is a place we've been to at two locations, this time in the Bowery. The food is not spectacular, but not bad. Last visit to the more northerly location we had a fava bean salad, followed later that day by a similar salad at Terroir, the latter of which was far superior. But the 'inoteca list is weighty, including the carafe offerings. If nearby and thirsty, we might stop by again, but other places seem to beckon more.
I'm wondering if you can be a bit more specific - is the location you went to on Rivington and Ludlow?
Sorry; probably don't know my neighborhoods well. We went to the one on 3rd street twice on a previous visit, and the one on Rivington this time.
3rd St.? There's an 'inoteca on 3rd St.? Where?
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Veloce closed and was replaced by another wine bar. I don't remember the new name right now.
Various Veloce wine bars have come and gone...the first (I believe) was on Cleveland Place...it begat Scott Conant's Bar Tonno, which begat Room 4 Dessert, which turned back into the current Veloce Club/wine bar.
There is still a Bar Veloce wine bar in the East Village, at 175 2nd Avenue, as well as one in Chelsea.
Veloce Pizzeria used to be Solex, a wine bar owned by the same person that owns the Bar Veloce wine bars.
Oh, you're right; it was Solex. But I believe it has a different name now. I didn't think it was Veloce. I'll check in a few minutes.
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The 10-course tasting menu is substantial but not ridiculous. I'd consider it more food than a typical dinner.
I'm sure Jean Georges is at its best with expensive tasting menus at dinner, but I have to say, my lunch prix fixe at Jean Georges the other day, though a very pleasant experience at just over $50 per person including tip for 2 courses apiece for 3 people, 2 desserts, and no wine apart from one dessert wine certainly didn't measure up at all in interest or pure deliciousness to Degustation's 10-course tasting menu. Apples and oranges and all that (and price: $156 for 3 people at JG vs. $240 for two, including tip at Degustation), but the fact remains.
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Soba, other than Hearth, what other Italian restaurants in New York do you like best?
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Veloce closed and was replaced by another wine bar. I don't remember the new name right now.
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John:
As everyone else is saying, you did great work here, and it was a pleasure to work with you when we were both moderators. It sounds like you're off to a tremendous start with your website. All the best of luck to you!
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Has anyone been to the new enoteca/pizzeria in the former Teresa's space on 1st Av. between 6th and 7th? If so, please post a report. And if I end up being the first, I'll post one.
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I can accept that, and indeed some of the more exotically-topped versions were quite enticing.
But we explicitly wanted a Margherita as a control, as a comparison to other places, and shouldn't a place like this make a banging basic pizza?[...]
Yes. There's no excuse for a Neapolitan-style pizzeria (or most any kind, really) to not ace the Margherita.
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I'm enjoying these reports, but I'm also glad you had "proper" food.
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The salads I've had there have all been excellent. I should hasten to add that, in Italy, when one dresses greens is is typically all about the olive oil and not so much about the vinegar (to the point that there often isn't any vinegar). So if you find the dressing insufficiently vinegary, this is likely why.
These guys need to stop being so authentic! It's like some of the people I've taken to Lupa who think the pasta isn't cooked enough.[...]
Again, in my case, no it isn't.
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The salads I've had there have all been excellent. I should hasten to add that, in Italy, when one dresses greens is is typically all about the olive oil and not so much about the vinegar (to the point that there often isn't any vinegar). So if you find the dressing insufficiently vinegary, this is likely why.
No, it isn't. I've spent three summers in Italy, enough time to be quite familiar with the way salads are made there. What seems to have happened, if anything, is that when I asked them to go light on the dressing the second time, they interpreted that as decreasing the amount of vinegar and maintaining the amount of oil. Of course, that doesn't account for the oversalting and overconcentration of salt in a particular part of the salad.
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You mention salad, yet Keste really doesn't seem to know, or perhaps care, how to make a good salad. The first time I went, the salad was overdressed, so the next time, I asked for them to go light on the dressing. It was still overdressed with oil and had too little vinegar. But what was much worse was that it was tremendously oversalted - and even worse, the salt wasn't mixed uniformly, so that part of the salad was inedibly salty. I don't plan on getting another green salad from them again. Which is a pity, because I find it healthful and pleasant to eat a good or even acceptable salad when having a pizza-based meal.
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I don't know, ratgirl. I went a few weeks ago and had a delicious meal, as usual. I ordered in such a way as to try to accommodate a friend who's on a low-carb, low-fat diet. We got the eggplant with garlic sauce, I think (the red, tomato-based sauce) and the cucumber for cold dishes and a steamed fish with ginger and scallions (not that low-fat, because of substantial oil, some of it sesame oil) and beef stew with daikon (called "turnip" on the menu). Only the stew was moderately spicy, but all of the food was delicious. I knew what the cucumber would be like - fresh cucumber with just a bit of sesame oil and maybe a touch of vinegar (I don't remember but I don't think so).
It probably helps that I've been to Spicy & Tasty a lot of times, but I've never had an unsatisfying meal there. I've never been to Sichuan, though. I still have no hesitation in recommending Spicy & Tasty, but there are certainly other excellent restaurants in Flushing. It's not Sichuan, but next time you're in Flushing consider trying Hunan restaurant. For Sichuan-style, there's also Little Pepper. I've been to both of these places only once, found Hunan great, and liked Little Pepper but found it too aggressively peppery and oily - since that's authentic, it may be just the thing for you.
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For the record, the cheesecake yesterday came from the Brooklyn flagship. I really can't say anything about the outposts.
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I was at a party last night where someone had brought a pineapple cheesecake from Junior's. It was delicious, and I had seconds.
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It's actually surprizingly difficult to get a real bead on what Lucali is charging. The menupages listing gives the base price as $18, as does Peter Meehan's November 2006 piece, which says: "PRICE RANGE Pizzas, $18, calzones, $10. Toppings or fillings $2 to $3.50."
On the other hand, a menupages commenter in January 2009 says that the base price for a plain pizza is $24. That's a pretty steep increase in price over only 26 months. Let's assume that is the current price. Steep? Sure.
On the other hand, the reported prices for Lucali seem to be roughly commensurate with what DiFara is charging. DiFara's base price are $25 for a regular pizza and $30 for a square pizza, with toppings running $3 to $5 depending on how fancy they are.
So, for example, a square pizza with artichoke from DiFara will run you 35 bucks. Of course, he's getting 40 bucks for a plain pizza when he sells it by the slice, or as much as $56 for a "specialty topping" pizza sold by the slice at 7 bucks each.
I think it's interesting that someone would say it's a cold day in hell before they pay those prices. Pan, I guess you've had your last slice from DiFara?
I actually haven't been to DiFara in at least a year. I really don't have the time, and have very good pizza options closer to home.
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[...]IMO, the ridiculously high priced pizzeria is Una Pizza Napoletana, charging $21 for a Neapolitan-sized pizza margherita.[...]
Which is why I've never gone there and have no plan to ever go there.
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Fornino operates in the same stylistic space as Keste, which is to say new-Neapolitan style pizza.
Can you explain what you mean by "New-Neapolitan", Sam? To me, Keste is pretty darn old-Neapolitan.
Keste pushes the envelope about as far as it can go in the soft and wet direction.Agreed. For those that like that style (I do), I think Keste is probably the best in the city right now. For those that like a crisper crust, my allegiance is to Motorino.
Motorino is the place that charges $34 per pizza, right? It'll be a cold day in Hell before I pay those kinds of prices!
Anyway, I'll take a stab at how Keste is new-style. Have you had their butternut squash puree and smoked mozzarella pie? That ain't your grandmother's Neapolitan pizza, is it? I admittedly have limited experience in Campagna (less than 2 weeks total), but I sure didn't see those kinds of toppings for sale on my two trips there (1991 and 1998). Instead, you could get a margherita, margherita plus prosciutto, and such-like - nothing unusual. I went to Trianon and the Antica Pizzeria Porta d'Alba (off the Piazza Dante in Spaccanapoli) a couple of times; I also had pizza in the town of Pompei (which I believe wasn't as good). Not sure where else, but probably a couple of other places.
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I've had good meals at Pam, and when I got served their som tom in Thai style, it was great, but none of my meals at Pam have been nearly as good as that meal at Wondee. And no way were the dishes we got Americanized. My guess is that even when people order from the "secret Thai" menu at Wondee, they may need to convince the waiter that they really want the real Thai taste. It helped a lot that my girlfriend told the waiter that I grew up in Malaysia (it was actually just two years of my childhood, but that was the right message for him, and he took us totally seriously from then on). I still haven't been to Rhong Tiam but have noted some pretty radically conflicting evaluations of it in reports. My guess is that any trip there will be on a whim or just because I'm in the area (though it really is just a 15-minute walk from my place, at most).
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I went to the Milk Bar for the first time tonight, with a friend. We shared a slice apiece of the Arnold Palmer and dulce de leche cakes. The Arnold Palmer cake was interesting, with the strong black tea taste, but the dulce de leche cake was absolutely wonderful! And at $5 a slice, the price is right. Now that I've gone once, I'll have to have self-control not to go again too often!
The five best cocktail destinations in NYC
in New York: Dining
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I don't understand. Please explain what that would have to do with closing times?