Mendel C-k
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Posts posted by Mendel C-k
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I am sorry you use muscle names too. I suspect you are quite knowledgeable and I understand your reasons. Nevertheless I am unlikely to find a package labeled serratus ventralis in the meat case and I suspect few of the so-called butchers who work in the stores where I shop would have a clue. It is very unfortunate.
Fair Enough, Serratis ventralis is basically the thickest muscle on a short rib from ribs 5-8. It is attached to all 1-8 ribs, but it small in the early ones. Basically when I say Serratus ventralis I mean trimmed short rib meat. But if I just said short rib meat - this could be from higher ribs where there isn't that much of that muscle which would mean cooking and eating experience would be different, or from lower than 8th rib, where it isn't even there.
Muscle names would get downright unwieldy with some cuts eg ribeye.
But I agree there are so many different cuts that the head swims.
Ribeye is mostly Longissimus - part of the erector spinae group. But yes, the surround musculature is varied and extensive. I remember for while there was a huge thing about the Spinalis Dorsi (rib eye cap), I think because of Heston B. He said that it in particular was superior to anything on the whole cow.
]Yeah, I know what you mean. I generally cook either this or Serratus Ventralis (trimmed Short rib) because they have a much superior flavour and are far more economical cuts - especially for a Uni student to afford
I do a similar thing regarding filleting the facial plane.
I understand that they were very cold, under vacuum etc., but I think long freezer time would effect tenderness somewhat. Just as the ice crystals formed in a frozen carrot pierce the cell walls and make them flaccid once thawed, so too the long freezing process would allow ice crystals to grow and perhaps puncture the sarcolemma? IDK, but just a thought.
Well now, that's clear as mud. Just a thought.
Put a carrot in the freezer. Let it freeze. Thaw it. It will be flaccid. This is because the cell walls are literally punctured by the ice crystals that form within the cell and apoplastic space.
I am saying that after such a long time in the freezer, I am hypothesising that a similar process may be at work in the meat, all be it to a much smaller extent. Meat (animal cells) don't have cell walls, but do have cell membranes. In myocytes (muscle cells) this membrane is specifically called the sarcolemma (as it has certain properties that differentiate from a regular cellular membrane)
Just a Thought.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. I generally cook either this or Serratus Ventralis (trimmed Short rib) because they have a much superior flavour and are far more economical cuts - especially for a Uni student to afford
I do a similar thing regarding filleting the facial plane.
I understand that they were very cold, under vacuum etc., but I think long freezer time would effect tenderness somewhat. Just as the ice crystals formed in a frozen carrot pierce the cell walls and make them flaccid once thawed, so too the long freezing process would allow ice crystals to grow and perhaps puncture the sarcolemma? IDK, but just a thought.
ps - BTW I'm sorry I use muscle names all the time, I just find it better than using beef cut names due to their inconsistency across regions, and the fact that a single cut may refer to multiple muscles, each with their own eating characteristics.
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I'm assuming by central broad tendon that this is Infraspinatus or more commonly know as Oyster Blade or once cut in half and the central tendon removed - Flat Iron steak. Flat iron steak is second "tenderest" only Psoas (the Tenderloin) in sheer force tests, so I'm sure it would be nice and soft especially after LTLT.
It would be interesting the know if you've ever had these fresh, and if you could tell if there was a difference after a year in the freezer?
I didnt cook this 'Today' :
its been in the basement freezer at least a year. 3.5MIL vacuum.
it is fork tender so I didnt take the trouble to cut paper thin slices.
this went into a RBSandwich w some soup. this cut // this way is the most outstanding
cut of beef Ive ever had : full beef flavor, seasoning perfect very very tender.
its a 'prime' blade roast that I get from time to time at one of the better market chains
'RocheBros' the butcher told me about them and I mentioned these a long long time ago
in another thread. you have to know how to remove the central thin-broad tendon.
the way I do this leads to 4 steaks : each 1/2 of each layer.
I reverse them and time them together to get two 'plump' small 'roasts'
I use Sauer's PrimeRibSeasoning and SV at 130 for 4 hours or so.
chill/freeze or eat one hot ass a roast w the usual mashed pots, peas, gravy
Ive been cleaning out my basement freezer to free up room for more springtime SV
project, at least is spring ever comes to NE.
I have 8 more of these puppies in the freezer
BTW other stuff Ive been pulling out of similar vintage :
Turkey Breast, Stuffed skinless Chicken Breast, etc has been outstanding
Ive just forgotten how good properly SV'd meats, w light seasoning can be
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All I know is the first thing I buy when in Paris or northern France is a slab of Bordier. It's incomparable
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I stumbled across chefsteps time/texture videos and I noticed, aswell as another person that no matter what temp their short ribs were cooked at, they were really dark pink. The person had asked if they were cured but had not got any responce. Now i have cooked short ribs about 6 times and everytime was hit or miss and i came to the conclusion it was most likely the grade/type of short rib. Some were great some terrible. I just picked up a vacuum packed bone in short ribs that are i nice thickness (roughly 2 inch thick with bone) I am hoping for a good turn out, but in the past 36 hours at 134-136F gave me great and terrible mealy/dry results. I hate waisting so much time and money on this inconsistent cut of beef.
I would assume myology is to blame here if all other variables are being kept constant
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Did 75h @ 54C.
Tried to get Serratus Anterior (Ventralis) but all the butchers in my area only had hindquarter cuts (SA inferiormost attachment at eighth rib)
However, spontaneous trip to what can only be described as the Vietnamese pocket of Melbourne yielded ribs from 5-7, but flaken cut.
Decided better to get the right muscle, and fix presentation later so got them and removed the meat, rolled them and SV @ 54 for 3days
Made a stock out of the ribs, intercostals and thin layer of Lat. Dorsi that was left (onions, bicarb, anise, deglazing with sweet vermouth then carrots, roasted ribs water, a few shiitake, some instant dashi) then reduced 15x to thick glaze and added a tiny bit of xanthan to emulsify the tiny bits of fat that I couldn't sieve out.
Took the SV meat out of bags and blowtorched to serve
The meat was good, definitely a different mouthfeel than most others. Really tender and juicy, but not "watery" like you can get from the real tender cuts (though this is perhaps because I like my tender cuts cooked rare). A much richer feel with a deeper, "meatier" flavour, though this was probably augmented by the demi-glace. I think dense is a apt word for the meat.
This is probably explained by the myology.
FWIW the compositions (found by one group) of Ribeye (longissimus (Erector spinae)) Fat/Moisture/Protein/Ash = .08/.7/.2/.01 (numbers truncated thus don't add to 1) and Serratus Anterior (Ventralis) = .12/.69/.18/.01
I think trimming really well is an important step. I cleaned all facia, all subcutaneous and extra-muscular fat as best as I could.
If I wanted to improve, I'd probably try and get a thicker cut of the muscle so I didn't have to roll it but really not too much else I would do. Except serve it with some marrow (costa are haematopoetic and thus no yellow marrow
)IMHO I don't really get the idea of keeping them on the bone. The intercostals and Lat.Dorsi which run ventrally and dorsally are quite different and thus having inconsistent textures/flavours would probably ensue. Similarly, these along with the bones are great for making a stock and thus demi-glace for the beef, so no need to buy beef bones.
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We are much more subdued in Australia...
However, the recipe is about 3 pages long
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If the salt content in the meat is different from the salt content in the liquid surrounding it, water containing the salt will operate through osmosis to equilibrate these levels. The process also takes flavour with it.
It won't take fat as the fat molecule is too big to enter the meat.This is not a thought experiment but rather a simple statement of scientific fact as it is understood at this time (or at least as it was presented in the EdX course on Science and Cooking).
Osmosis is the movement of water - just water, and thus won't have an effect on flavour (texture sure, but flavour no...)
Osmosis is mediated by the concentrations of non-penetrating solutes - which would include most of the ligands for taste receptors (TAS/TRP GPCRS)
Penetrating solutes effect the osmolarity of the solution, not the tonicity.
Some basic ligands of taste receptors are L-Amino acids for umami (why the glutamate in MSG makes umami flavour), Cyclohexamide for bitter, Na+ for salt, H+ for sour and basic sugars and other compounds for sweet (I think sweet have the greatest range of ligands). Anyway, for any of these to penetrate the myocytes proper, they must be non-polar, in order to diffuse though the membrane, or be so small (talking really small) so as to pass through the cell membrane. Of these, only Na+ and H+ have that capability. Thus I'd say Salty and sour may have the ability to diffuse through meat, but most "flavour" substances are merely present on the external surface wether there by marination or in the sauce itself.
That being said, marination can lead to more "flavour" particles developing within the marinade itself, and also leaching of fluids from the meat, maturation and other chemical reactions that would change the flavour of the marinade. And furthermore, this is only talking about diffusion into the myocyte, not the possibility of "flavour" particles getting into the fascicles or other "nooks and crannies" of the meat (where they may be subject to different temps that if they were in the sauce or on the extern surface, whereby reacting differently and contributing a different flavour to the finished dish. Also type of cooking process (maillard reaction etc.) change the flavour compounds.
Most importantly do what tastes good!
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Hi guys,
I may be able to help with the temperature range stuff...though you guys may already know this stuff, if so, please disregard.
Basically, enzymes are biological catalysts that are proteins. The reason enzymes work is because of their specific conformation or shape. The primary structure of a protein is the sequence of amino acids held by amide bonds (these will not break at cooking temperatures on their own). The secondary structure (the way these chains of amino acids are organised) is held together by hydrogen bonds. These are considerably weaker and break at different temperatures depending on the electronegativity of the atom the hydrogen atom is attached to, but this can be between 1-150 KJ/Mol. The tertiary structure is held by disulphide bonds (again, covalent bonds so quite strong). The active site of the enzyme, the bit that actually does the catalytic activity - e.g. cleaving proteins and breaking down collagen (by breaking those amide bonds) - is held in its specific shape by many weak bonds and attractions - including Hydrogen bonds, Van der Waals forces, other electrostatic forces etc. - it is these that break at high temperatures and render the enzyme inactivated.
However, the closer you get to this point of deactivation, the more active the enzyme becomes. This is because of the way the active site works. We all know that heat is a form of energy. as the protein gets warmer - or more accurately, as the bonds around the active site begin to vibrate more - the active site becomes more unstable. Think about it like this...If you've got a basketball ring made of metal (the active site) the ball (the substrate - or what is being catalysed by the enzymes eg. collagen) needs to arrive at a very specific angle and velocity to go in. If you made that basketball ring out of jelly or rubber, the ball could arrive at a less "perfect" angle and velocity and still go in as the ring would bend and allow the ball through. The same thing happens with the active site of the enzyme, at increasing temperature, the bonds around the active site - indeed around the whole protein - become more energetic and less stable, and thus more pliable (more like the jelly ring) and thus is more excepting of substrate and thus catalyses at greater rates. However, increase this temperature too much, and the bonds become so unstable that they break and irreversibly inactivate the enzyme.
That's why to get optimum catalytic activity it is important to go very close to the inactivation temp with our exceeding it.
Now, if only we knew the specific collegenases in cows, you could find the optimum temperature and keep it at that....
Sorry if this was boring.
Also, heres a graph demonstrating the canonical enzyme activity vs temperature curve. The reason they peak at 37* C is because this is human body temp, and we want our enzymes working at their best.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/images/add_ocr_bi02005a.gif
Also, some of the statements in the preceding are slightly erroneous, but for the sake of simplicity they have been used.
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What Are You Cooking Sous Vide Today? (Part 1)
in Cooking
Posted
I think I should defend my practices a bit...though I understand that I am firmly outnumbered
Take the short rib... From the LTLT short rib thread and others, we can see there are multiple cuts that fit "short rib"
"back short ribs", "Chuck Short ribs", "plate Short ribs" etc...
Now each of those will have different muscles making up the cut, as they come from different parts of the animal. Similarly, as you move more anterior or posterior (higher or lower ribs) the musculature will change too.
So now you've got "short ribs".
Are they Back Short ribs? Chuck short ribs? Plate short ribs?
Let's say we have a great butcher who does specify the above.
Are they Back short ribs from ribs 6-8? or 3-5? or 1-4? This will also effect what muscles your eating.
The muscle is the key. These naming conventions are inadequate to describe them accurately. Thus why people in the Short rib LTLT thread are having good and bad results with the same temp and time.
"Hey, I did 70h@60C and it was dry and 'mealy' ", but "I did 70h @60C and it was the epitome of beef".
Hang on, they both used "short ribs", both used same temp, same time, WTF is going on?
Well, did they use the muscle? I suspect not.