yvonne johnson

Steve, I've seen many episodes of Chef, but that one doesn't ring a bell. Pity.

Me too, I find this thread interesting. I would like to come back to some comments you made yesterday, Steve P. I fear your mind is made up: France’s offerings are, in general, superior to those of anywhere else. To drive your point home, however, you create a straw man, in this case, portray British food to be much worse than it is (and was), and then attack it treating the stereotype as fact Added to the dismissal of British food is the romanticization of all things French. You write: “The British Macaroni & Cheese, with some mustard, Worcestershire sauce and crumbs atop, that is the type of thing that someone can remember fondly from their youth. But if you grew up in Lyon, and the macaroni & cheese was flavored with a little gravy from a beef stew that was simmering for a half a day, could you objectively say that the British version is any good?” See what I mean? The British version is no good at all because you favor the French one. But hang on, what if I tell you that stodge with gravy from a simmering pot is part of my fond memories? This also counters your use of Spam and Marmite as the foods of choice for all British people. Citing Jane Grigson here seems appropriate: “Suet Pudding with Gravy: Smart readers, who think nothing of eating polenta with hare sauce or spaghetti al sugo, may well sneer at the old north country way of eating suet pudding with gravy. I remember staying on a farm as a child of seven, and feeling thoroughly superior and disgusted by the whole idea. The sight of Billy…, the handsome young farmer for whom I had a secret passion, tucking into his meant that I had to tuck in too. And how good it was—the gravy was made with the rich juices of the roast beef that came next. On the days following, we had suet pudding with the sauce left from jugged hare….” More specifically, I question your other depictions. 1. “British fish is good but it is hard to get it really fresh. And the varieties of fish available seem awfully limited. You can get a good piece of sole in many places but quite often not much else.” Let's stick to London for ease of argument. Your point has some truth if we keep to generalities. But, the broad view overlooks the important fact that London is the home of Steve Hatt, who in my humble opinion, is possibly the finest fishmonger in the UK and I’ve yet to find a NY fishmonger that comes anywhere close. (Hatt has been discussed elsewhere on this board--sorry to go over old ground--but I’m not alone in my views). Egulletarians will travel quite some distance (as I used to) to get his fish in Islington. Hatt offers a huge variety. As for supermarkets, I can vouch that Marks & Spencer's fish is very fresh and of the highest quality. I know this for sure because I worked in a factory that supplied M&S, and more recent family contacts in the fish world report that M&S still gets top of the line, and I believe them. 2. “British game is reportedly superior but I'm not much of a game eater so I can't help you.” I agree, British game is very good, because it is wild, and not farmed as it is in the US. [3. As for American meat being superior, my husband for one would agree with you that beef in the US is superior to British. Steaks taste better here. So some agreement here. Yeahh] 4. “French soft cheese can't be beat.” OK. Interestingly, (all?) French soft are placed on a pedestal. Now you go on to say, “Some British cheese is really good, especially hard cheeses.” Why not say British hard cheeses are hard to beat? What about blue cheeses, can you beat a Stilton, or the newish one, the Blue Shropshire? 5. “British bread is more like American bread, generally awful. French and Italian bread are far superior”. Again, in going for the general you overlook the terrific bakeries that do exist in the UK. Maybe you've not been exposed to the spectacular unsweetened brown, wholewheat breads available. My husband, like Adam, I see, almost puke at the idea of sweet bread. On my last visit, I tasted the best white rolls ever at the Peat Inn, near St Andrews. And there are no poor French baguettes, I suppose? I’ll end with a few tangential musings. Adam hopes for a revival of the British “ethnic” cuisine, as I do, and I hope it doesn’t get lost. I guess places like St John (never been) is promoting this food. But where do a lot of the traditional recipes come from? Not the middle, upper classes (if I understand Plotnicki, he suggests they determine what we eat). A lot of the good British food comes from the lower to middle classes, no? And if we stick with the 1960s onwards, the pity was that the middle to upper classes wanted to dress up the traditional, and make a right mess of it too. Putting sherry in a decent soup and utterly spoiling it, serving everything with doilies etc. I think Wilfrid was getting at this yesterday (if it was his birthday yesterday, then I guess he’s well hung over and out of operation today). Now, if we bring back the culture argument, I’d like to suggest that we lost our pride in British good old traditional cuisine. Thank goodness for Grigson and Sue Lawrence who are putting the pride back into the regional winners. Now my posts are getting longer than Plotnicki's. Oh, boy.

I really like Barbados. And not because it’s full of Brits. (Indeed some of the Brits who go there are rather unpleasant.) I last visited July 2000. All comments relate to the west coast. I know a lot can change in 18 months, but here goes, and some of below I posted on chowhound around a year ago. The Cliff (Derricks, St James). I’ve been there twice and was bowled over both times. It’s a very beautiful restaurant with the waves crashing below and flares lighting the place at night. The chef, Paul Owens, seems to know what he’s doing with fish. I had tuna on both visits. There is a nouvelle aspect to the dishes, but it’s not a drizzle of this and that. It feels more substantial in that just a few concentrated flavors come through. Of note is the fact that the locals--we went with a Barbadian-- not just tourists consider the Cliff to be the island's best. One caveat: we’ve gone there during off-season in July. It’s kind of silly to speak of seasons in this part of the world, as the temperature remains quite stable year round, but , in any case, I imagine that in the winter months, high season, this restaurant might be chock-full of those rather tiresome people mentioned earlier. The Lone Star (farther north, outside of Holetown) opened around 2 years ago and got some very good reviews. On the basis of one dinner, I thought it was attempting to imitate the Cliff, but not managing. Not that it was bad. Less expensive places include Olives, in Holetown. This is a reliable spot serving the competent unfussy. There’s a nice comfortable bar upstairs. Holetown is tiny--only a few streets—and there are several good restaurants. Around Paynes Bay, is the inexpensive Bombas. This is an oceanfront, funky café that makes Bajan fish cakes, that are round, heavy, and deep-fried ( could go some now), and rotis that pair excellently with ice-cold Banks beer. For lunch, Treasure Beach Hotel has good fish cakes and flying fish sandwiches too, though for dinner I'd go elsewhere. Treasure Beach is a small hotel with a certain non-glitzy charm. I've not tried Oistins which SamanthaF mentioned. Of all the Caribbean islands I’ve visited--Margarita Island, Venezuela (eons ago), Trinidad (ditto), Martinique (around six years ago, which food-wise was surprisingly a little disappointing)—Barbados has been the best for restaurants.

Table mate! That's hilarious. Andy mentioned "bosky" earlier. I quite like the woody sound of the word and I can imagine mushrooms being bosky. But, I see that, colloquially (not that I've used it), bosky means "slightly tipsy". So are these London reviewers telling us something in code? One than bugs me a little: "perfect foil for.." I was going to say, Tommy, that's not the cooking foil with a shiny side and a dull side. One shouldn't really because, in fact, Tommy is very bright.

You are on. And rather than clog the board up with more toing and froing, I'm in communication with Simon and we will settle on day, time, place. I will post the details shortly, and anyone who wishes to join us will be more than welcome. So, something will happen in New York, the first week in April. Hooray.

Three weeks later, one hundred and twelve posts later....You can't say I haven't tried. Simon, you are no doubt referring to April of this year. I have very dim hopes of a regional dinner happening that soon :confused:. But maybe the pub crawlers (who have pretty good organizational skills relatively speaking) would like to get together with you.

Steve P: You meant Magdalen College, Oxford, surely? Brits cannot tolerate poor spelling. The government instills this tic in our minds from infancy. And what the government says we accept. A couple of thoughts. 1. This argument seems to have started because Steve P. offered a rendition of Drew Smith’s arguments in "Modern British Cooking". Maybe we should make this an eGullet set book next month so we can all read it and comment and discuss. Afterall, Steve P. might’ve missed the point:read wink here, I'm tiring of those smiley faces. If we don't get irony, then...: 2. The argument that the Brits were just too weak, be it character/culture wise (or combination of the two, or more factors) to protest about the food the “government” allowed us to eat appears very simplistic to me. The UK is hardly a homogenous group. As we know, the Welsh, Irish, Scottish have all stood up to the English. (And when the Scots haven’t been fighting those south of the border they’ve been fighting amongst themselves. Do those Aberdonians despise those from Dundee? One interesting take on all of this is the possibility that the Brits chose to stand up on matters more important than food. For example, couldn’t one maintain that energy spent on the development of cuisine was given over to unionization and strikes? A long shot, I know, but if we are going to bring in social policy (about which I know something) then why not extend Smith’s analysis, as outlined by Steve P., to include the wider social context. 3. I agree with Wilfrid that during the 1960s and 1970s—the childhood period I remember—the food at home was very good. Just look at Sue Lawrence’s Scots Cooking and people will see the delicious foods I was brought up on. So maybe we have to separate the London fine dining scene from British home cooking. 4. On dating the improvement in London eating out, I’d place it in the late 1980s. That is my take. In addition, I can’t get my hands on a source right now on Michelin recognition of UK restaurants (Lurker says the source is in one of Nico’s cookery books), but I think there was a period in the 1980s when the UK had more Michelin stars than Italy. 5. I’ll end soon. Promise. Steve P., your claim that Britain had the worst food in Europe (or something similar) till recently is puzzling. Have you eaten in every European country? I haven’t, but are you saying that German cuisine is (or was in recent memory) superior to British? What about Poland, Finland, Czechoslovakia? And as for the Netherlands, which you dismiss (on hearsay?), I had some of the finest halibut in a restaurant called Papillion in The Hague some years ago. 6. OK, one more point. I know something about the Scottish deep-sea fishing industry, and some of this might confirm what I think people are driving at when cultural difference is raised. For a very long time, Scottish fisherman encouraged shoppers to buy catfish and monkfish. All in vain. The consumers weren’t swayed; they wanted sole and plaice. I put this down to lack of adventure. These fish were exported, the monkfish going to France. More recently, I’ve witnessed an eagerness on the part of the British to try new things. This is a good thing, and may explain why there are now so many exciting restaurants in the likes of London.

A small point, the correct spelling appears to be pomelo. An alternative spelling is pummelo. Neither here nor there, I guess, as it goes under various names in Asia. Anyway, Solomon's Encyclopedia http://www.amazon.com/exec....er-link that I mentioned below (which I highly recommend, by the way. If it had nothing but the pork vindaloo--which is the best curried dish I can make at home--in it I'd still praise it highly), says that the pomelo is thought to be a cross between a grapefruit and a shaddock (about which I know nothing) and that there are 2 varieties, one pink (which can be deep red), and another white ("to be accurate..a pale greenish yellow"). She goes on to say that when it's good it is juicy and sweet. When bad, bitter and fibrous, and, in Asia, as A Balic describes, the fruit is very popular with salt and chillies in salads.

I ate my first pomelo just over a year ago, and I ws struck by how lovely it was, especially to look at. I bought it thinking it was just another pink grapefruit. I started peeling it but the skin was a lot thicker than I’d anticipated. I kept digging for the fruit and in the process saw these wonderful colors. The skin is bright green, then there is a thin layer of white, then you come to the pith that is a magical light pink. When I got to the fruit I found deep crimson, shining segments (they were blood orange-like). And they were juicy. The various colors made me think about the beauty of food and about why green and pink borrowed from nature work so well together in interior design. Realizing this was no ordinary grapefruit, I looked up Soloman’s Encyl of Asian Food, and found out that the pomelo is the biggest of the citrus fruits, and is native to SE Asia and can weigh up to 22 pounds.

Oh, heaven forfend. Spam and coleslaw sandwiches. I'll have to go and lie down. After not tasting Spam, in what?, over thirty years, what got me was the smell of it. And that weird watery jelly it's wrapped in. And I wasn't alone....our cats around a year ago when we had all three all turned their noses up at it. And let me tell you, our Seamus loved his grub.

Thanks jordan and edemuth. I have both vodka and gin at home so will experiment. As for my grapefruit tequila sunrise, I don't use measures. a) place generous amount of ice in glass. I used very large red wine glasses, goodness knows why. b) pour in generous amount of tequila. I happened to use Jose Cuervo Especial. c) Add ruby grapefruit juice. I'd say around one cup d) gently add a little (I don't go overboard with this, as I don't like a lot of sweetness) grenadine close to lip of glass and it glides to the bottom. Cheers! Oh, and Nico. He's a chef in London, who, during the 1980s, was the one with a temper (very tame compared to the current bad boys). If a customer asked for salt, he'd go up to the table and pour an entire canister of salt on the person's meal, or was it over their head?

Robin, Thanks for the tip. Between your and Simon's as well as stellabella's hearty recommendations on the Wenlock, I really can't miss it the next time.

Broccoli-cheddar-rice casserole, tuna casserole—never tried these. Maybe it’s true you have to grow up with them to appreciate them. Lots of the dishes mentioned above are ones we’d have for a supper on Sunday evenings. I suppose the logic was you needed something more like a snack than a dinner after the heavy Sunday lunch. Anyway these Sunday supper things were always a bit disappointing, not because I disliked the food, it’s just, as a kid, they didn’t fill you up. Sardines on toast, pilchards on toast, Welsh rabbit* (with lashings of Lea & Perrins to jazz it up), sliced tongue on white bread (not my favorite, I admit), porridge, brose (raw porridge!), cheesy potatoes (regular mashed potatoes with tons of grated cheese within and on top browned under grill), Spam sandwiches with mango chutney (I actually tried this recently, and it was plain awful ), yellow fish with a poached egg on top (my favorite). Favorite comfort foods from childhood that I eat when my husband is away (he cannot abide them) are sausage rolls and beans; curried beans on toast; pork pie (Meyers of Keswick makes pretty decent ones) with loads of mustard. *I see Wilfrid used the gentrified (according to Jane Grigson) rarebit . Hope I'm not boring the pants off people with all this historical stuff, but I see that as far back as the 16 century the Welsh called bread and melted cheese Welsh rabbit , because, for the poorer among them, it was the nearest they could get to rabbit and in ways it was as tasty as rabbit. . and of course they were severely mocked for so doing. (The Scottish surely can't tease the Welsh. Afterall, a dish called Scotch Woodcock is absent the bird, and amounts to anchovies on toast! Must try.) Anyway, we never went to the bother of doing the fancy type of Welsh rabbit: melting butter, cheese, egg and cream in a pan and then browning in little pots under grill and serving with toast as you're supposed to as per Grigson, or even the simpler version, mixing in some ale or mustard. Welsh rabbit for my family was simply one piece of toast with cheese grilled on top, and don't forget the Lea & Perrins.

Another note on the merits of grapefruit juice. A few months back, I went through a craving for a cocktail that I made up. Tequila sunrise substituting gj for oj. Very tasty, and people (well, one chum in this case) I gave it to liked it too. Like Roger, I'm partial to g&t, but I'm starting to hesitate before ordering it when I'm out. Places that should know better (e.g., Algonquin in NY) offer such lousy, flat tonic. I seem to remember that Nico, of London fame, despises customers who order g&t as an aperitif. He says it ruins the palate. I suppose if you drank loads of tonic that can be sweet. But I love a g&t in the evening before dinner. That said, I'm going to try this famous Negroni. I've got everything bar the sweet vermouth. oh...while we're at it, would people mind sharing their precise recipes for the Negroni?

Mention of Burgos and crime brought back this memory. Me and my boyfriend were camping during our student days, and we found this lovely camping site on the outskirts of Burgos. It had handsome trees, long grass and lots of space between the campers. We were asleep one night in our small two-sleeper tent, when all of a sudden I woke up and just above my head I saw a little, strange face peering down at me. The intruder had cut open the airflap revealing his disembodied head. I obviously startled him and off he scampered. Some of our clothing was taken, and we guessed the thief was aiming for things under our pillows (where, indeed, we kept our money). The next day was spent sewing our tent back together as it had been cut in various places. Ho, hum.

I've not had a Negroni and had to look it up. http://beverage.allrecipes.com/az/NgrniCcktil.asp Have you tried the simple drink of Campari and soda with a wedge of orange? Some years back, I went through a phase of ordering this as an aperitif. It's refreshing too.

Worthington White Shield. It's been a couple of years since I had one, but it is a very fine beer. I don't pour in the sediment, but I hear some people do. The next time I'm over to London I must have one. For those unfamiliar with this beer, here's some more on it from Michael Jackson http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000194.html

Me and Lurker are up for cheap and blow out ranges. To inject some action here, I made some enquiries at Bid, 1334 York Avenue (at 71st St), 988-1999. I spoke to Patty Lee and when I mentioned eGullet and Steven Shaw she put the phone down . No, Patty said she knew Steven and Ellen and others in their family, and that she would be very happy to help us. Space: We could have half the restaurant which would allow some privacy as it’s shaped in a U, I’m told. Patty said the maximum would be four tables of eight, so 32 people. More than that then we’d have to buy out the restaurant something I didn’t pursue as I didn’t think we’d get more than 32, right? Menus: These range from $50 to $150, from four courses to seven courses. The restaurant is going to fax/email the menus which I can then post here if people are interested. It would be preferable if we all choose the same menu. That said, if we ended up being a smaller group, say 15 people, then we could order a la carte on the night. Wines: The restaurant is happy to select wines for each course. They are also happy to offer a menu at lower price for those choosing not to drink alcohol. If we go for a weeknight, at the moment the restaurant would need only a week’s notice. How does this sound?

There's an old thread on this topic, for what it's worth http://www.egullet.com/ib3....r+party which I happen to remember for obvious reasons. I really enjoy dinner parties and there has to be charades at the end.

Been meaning to add this. A week past Sunday, popped into Craftbar for lunch. I’d recommend it for a bite on the run, but (as usual) I’ve got a couple of gripes. First, we were asked what we’d like to drink. I said I’d like a beer. (This seemed a reasonable request (It is a bar, no?), but this seemed to take our waiter’s breath away. “No, no…what kind of water do you want?”, he said (Water in a bar ?). I replied tap water, and expected him to take my beer order, but no, off he went. At last, menus and wine list. I ordered a lovely Pilsner from (Casco Bay?) Maine. My husband’s chicken soup was spectacular. Brownish translucent stock, large chicken meat-balls, vegetables and parsley. Then we both went for warm pressed sandwiches. I had prosciutto, arugula and parmesan, and husband had the prosciutto cotto with fontina. Mine was particularly flavorful, the arugala lending a spiceyness. However, these were on the small side (thin bread the texture of ciabatta), and in the middle, only one slice of prosciutto. I’m no fan of mile high deli sandwiches, but these were meager sandwiches. But tasty nonetheless. With two glasses of red (Pernand Rollins 96) check was $60 excluding tip.

To repeat, what about Les Halles downtown as suggested by the self-appointed committee led by stefanyb and Lurker? Doesn't this sound like a good, mid-range option? And as Tommy said, we'd be supporting places downtown.

I had to go to work on a Friday for a change and I've been in a meeting all day. Of course, I'm still up for it. Me, renege on a crawl?

Quite a few people contributing to this thread are meeting up tomorrow night. If conversation on topics unrelated to eGullet dries up (I doubt it), we could maybe put on our thinking-berets & speak about forming a committee that will plan a dinner for this glorious region. Come to think of it, whoever suggests this will be a real party pooper. Stop blethering, enough of committees--go get that other round.

Cabrales, Sorry to be so tardy with my 'thank you' for your recommendations. I'd lost this thread, and now I see Hawaii is in California, and therefore on the California board!

I stupidly started it on the wine board. http://www.egullet.com/ib3....k+cider