Joe H

Steveklc, please don't interpret what I say. Let it speak for itself. Thank you.

I think there are also other emotions that enter into these discussions sometimes. On the L'auberge thread we are basically discussing one of the very few-VERY FEW-restaurants that have successfully survived for as long as they have. To put this in perspective I drove through Silver Spring a week ago for the first time in several years. I grew up there in the '50's and '60's and moved to Reston in 1988 after living in both D. C. and Montgomery County in the '70's and '80's. There were only three places that I saw in business that I remembered from the '60's: Crisfield, Mrs. K's and Eddie's Variety Stand on Eastern Avenue. Every other place that I remember from 40 years ago was gone. Most were gone from twenty years ago when I last lived there. I would say the same about Bethesda and downtown D. C. having lived in both places. The percentage of restaurants that survive 20 years, let alone 40 years (let alone 5 years!) is tiny. For someone who invests in a restaurant, who works in a restaurant, who spends their whole life in one of the most labor intensive, time consuming, exhausting businesses there is it must be especially frustrating trying to find the formula for the kind of success that the "dinosaurs" have found. The Alpine on Lee Highway in Arlington is certainly not a world class Italian restaurant. Yet it is successful and has been around seemingly forever. As has L'auberge. I think for those in the industry that look at restaurants like these (and Mrs, K's and the nondescript Crisfield's) and try to understand why they have lasted so long it can be particularly frustrating. Especially when one's own money and time and labor are involved in making a commitment that their restaurant has THE formula to also survive as the others. I believe that it is here, in trying to understand the success that the differences occur. L'auberge is the case in point. One more thought: having lived in both suburban Maryland and suburban Virginia as well as downtown there are very real differences in the perspectives of those who live in these respective areas. Many who live downtown tend look down on those who live in the suburbs. Many in the suburbs refuse to go downtown for their own (for me) misperceptions. Sometimes these personal valuations tend to crop up on these boards, sometimes they may tend to influence opinions. I am reintroducing this post because I thought it might be interesting, especially for those who are in the industry and post on these boards. Also, because from time to time I detect an "attitude" of those who live in the city while at other times KNOW there is an attitude from my neighbors who live in the suburbs. To further compound this when I first moved from Montgomery County to Fairfax County my friends in Silver Spring and Bethesda thought that I was moving to a second class state: "Reston? Aren't there cows still being milked there?" is a direct quote from one of my best friends then. Later, living in Reston and still feeling long standing loyalty to Montgomery County I bristled when my neighbors in Reston disdainfully shrugged Ocean City as too "blue collar" favoring the Outer Banks (almost twice as far away!) for their vacation. "Maryland? You go to MD football games? My God, that's across the river! I would have though you would go to Tech if you were going anywhere!" Another actual quote from another neighbor. Note that the Univrsity of Maryland (which I graduated from) is about 30 miles around the beltway and VA Tech is 260 down I81! When I lived near McLean Gardens, later Dupont Circle I found people didn't even know which states Bailey's Cross Roads or Kensington where in! I did suspect that they thought there were cows still being milked in BOTH Reston and Silver Spring! Anyway, I offer these for discussion as two possible specific influences on one's opinions and how they may be influenced. Over time I've noticed what I thought were specific influences on opinions on these boards that may have been influenced by one or the other of these.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble for your excellent summary.

California's Fat Burger is coming to the D. C. area soon. I like Chick Fil A but think that Fat Burger and In 'n Out are both far superior.

I could not disagree with you more. I'm not making excuses for L'aubege. It IS good. It is NOT great nor does it aspire to be great. Nor does it aspire to a E 290 prix fixe such as Gagnaire or E360 as Veyrat. (that's US $355 and US $440 prix fixe respectively for the absolute cutting edge adventure). What it does compare favorably to is not a one star but a dependable, small town inn in Alsace. Exactly that which you described. But also every bit as expensive with the current rate of exchange. I also have no idea what you had at L'auberge but they have some very good dishes. Not a single one is what I would call a Great dish but some very good, dependably comforting food that tastes even better in the idyllic setting. I have been to Marcel's twice and liked it. Yes, I thought the food was better than L'auberge. But I would still pick L'auberge for most evenings because of its ambience. Marcel's cannot even begin to compare for that. For whatever reason I think you and the person from Nectar do not seem to understand that it is the ambience of L'auberge as well as its tradition that drives it. Chez Marc in Manassas is something of a similar place yet the food is not quite as good and the amibence not quite as special. Probably the kind of place that would be the best restaurant in, say, Wichita. Or Manassas. L'auberge is better. And more special. But it's just not about pretending to be any more than it is. For whatever reason neither of you seem to accept it for what it is. Still, they've found a formula that has endeared themselves to the D. C. area for 25 years. It works there better than, say, Chez Marc or Auberge Provencial or any of a dozen other similar places. I think L'auberge has nothing to do with the growth of Washington, D. C. as a restaurant town. Nor does the Prime Rib. Almost every city has "dinosaurs" like these that "stand the test of time." The growth of Washington dining has as much to do with the growth of the city and its world stature (Bush aside) as it does anything else. But this is a topic for another time. Still, I find it interesting that you seem to have a personal thing about my opinions. I suppose some things never change.

I've been eating Krispy Kremes for 50 years (I'm 57.) Their hot glazed donut is incredible and I've never tired of it. But there are a half dozen chains around the country, especially in New England and Canada that I much prefer to Krispy Kreme. I'm not crazy about Dunkin either. The Canadian Tim Horton (BEFORE Wendy's was very good IN CANADA; since Wendy' bought them and they expanded into the States they have lost a lot). For the reason that there is an enormous short position in KK I doubt if the lines will last very long. Still, I was very surprised that the Charlottesville location closed. When it first opened there were long lines there, too but this was the start of the national craze.

I have been going to L'auberge for over twenty years, probably averaging a visit every two years or so. I have never been to Nectar. I consider L'auberge to be well worth the cost and the wine list to be priced fairly. I also consider this is to be a romantic, enchanting restaurant that is truly special where the ambience can compensate for some mediocrity in food. However, as I noted above there are several very good dishes, even excellent ones. I have never thought of L'auberge in the same way that I think of Maestro or Citronelle-it is simply not cutting edge nor spectacular nor does it reach the heights they do. I also do not react with disappointment to it as I do at The Inn where $500+ for two has left me shaking my head on two visits within the last two years. For what amounts to $100-125 a person with decent wine, tax and tip L'auberge Chez Francois, with its transporting ambience and very good food, it is a very good dining investment for the D. C. area. If I am willing to spend $200+ a person and want what I believe is dinner on par with any in America I will go to Maestro or Citronelle. All three are special. But in their own way.

I don't understand the big deal about this. There's been a Krispy Kreme on Richmond Highway just south of Alexandria operating since the late 1940's. Two others (Baileys Cross Roads and Ga. & East West Highway in Silver Spring) went out of business long ago. They are also beginning to close around the country. For instance a Krispy Kreme opened on route 29 in Charlottesville about four or five years ago. Driving through there on Saturday it had gone out of business. "Hot" donuts aside (which ARE great) the rest of Krispy Kreme is mediocre especially in comparison to other chains. They have one great gimmick which was popular HERE in the early '50's (yes, the early '50's) that people lost interest in then. Now, we're going through it again. I remember as a little kid my parents going to the KK in Silver Spring on Saturday nights for donuts because the Hot light went on around 9:00PM. This is after we went to Benny's on Maine Avenue for fish sandwiches (fresh perch breaded, fried and stacked four inches high with creamy cole slaw and hot sauce on Wonder bread) and french fries (fried in lard-yes, lard). Later years we drove to the first McDonald's in Hybla Valley (from Silver Spring-McDonald's had good food then and the best french fries anywhere). Someone, sooner or late, will open a fast food hamburger stand that has the same food that McDonald's did in the late '50's and repeat that all over to. This is also why In 'n Out Burger does so well on the West Coast-it never changed. Still, what IS the big deal about Krispy Kreme opening in D. C.? They never left the area?

Thanks, James. Saved a trip.

I have not been to Asia Nora-yet. But I would expect it to be at least several notches above Ten Penh. For whatever reason neither of her restaurants receive the attention on this and other boards that they deserve.

To the original topic: The Wayside Inn in Middletown started in 1797. This is a link to some info about them: http://www.alongthewayside.com/history.asp Reeves Bakery started in 1886. Their website: http://www.reevesbakery.com/ Jerry's Subs started in 1946 on Kennedy Street, N. W. later moving to Wheaton in the year Rocks listed. A couple of doors down from it on Kennedy was Weihle's who moved to Langley Park about the same time. Jerry's was named after their son. The couple who originally owned it (his name was Sol) have their own history, very similar to Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi." There was one way of making a sub and only one-their's. It wasn't until they sold to another couple (Max and ?) in the '70's that the place really acquired a reputation. Yet the food was exactly the same. Later, a couple of guys who worked there while going to MD bought it and built it into what it is today. There are major differences, though, from even the '70's. Hot peppers then were mixed with pickle juice! I suppose Nora is the longest running nouveau cuisine better restaurant. The Pizza Pantry on Walter Reed Drive in Arlington, The Pizza Ovens in East Pines and Rockville all date to the '50's. Freddie's Variety Stand on Eastern Avenue in Silver Spring has been serving half smokes at least since the early '50's; I believe it predates Ben's Chili Bowl. Hodges has been selling roast beef sandwiches on New York Avenue since at least the time of JFK. Remarkably a number of fast food restaurants have lasted a long time. The first McDonald's was/is on Richmond Highway in Hybla Valley, opening in the late '50's, the first Wendy's wasn't too far away also on Richmond Highway (early '70's) and the Krispy Kreme in Groveton predates both back to the late '40's/early '50's. Driving through Charlottesville last night I noticed that a Krispy Kreme there, which only opened within the last six or seven years, has already gone out of business.

Several brief thoughts: my sister a number of years ago had one of D. C.'s better restaurants (Phyllis recognized her as one of D. C.'s 50 best one year.) She had her own experience with reorganization as many professionals have. Today she still works 70+ hours per week with her catering business despite her 60+ years. I DO understand what she and her employees then went through. In part, because of this, I for several years but that was something VERY different.) But he has been a very real gift to this city. I went to Romeo and Juliet soon after he started there about twenty years ago. At the time Cantina d'Italia and Tiberio were the best this city had. Later Roberto opened on P street then moved to his present location. He and Francesco Ricchi together took D. C. Italian to another level. Later he rose above this with Laboratorio. I honestly believe in large part because of him we have been exposed to a level of Italian cuisine that is rare even in Italy. He has helped raise all of our standards. Still, this is a very tough industry, a very fickle one. To stay on top in any restaurant is remarkable; to last for so long is almost unheard of. I sincerely hope that for himself and those who work with him and for those of us who appreciate what he gives us he pulls this out. For me Roberto cannot be replaced.

I learned a lesson, too! He and I talked for fifteen minutes and I thought the quote that he was going to use was something like"Roberto was a gift to the city of D. C." not that which I said flippantly at the very end of the conversation to try to lighten what was otherwise rather sad. Also, I have been ten times or so but over the years. When I saw the article this morning I winced. I really should have known better!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Aug20.html is the announcement I referred to in my earlier post.

On a lighter note I remember standing in line on 15th street for hours waiting for Keith's to open in 1962. Several hundred of us had camped out for the opening of From Russia With Love. Sean Connery's Doctor No had really awakened this city to long lines he year before at the same theatre. The Warner, then, was still the theatre of choice with Ben Hur having played there. The Capital on F street was D. C.'s largest theatre with over 5,000 seats!

There is going to be a devastating announcement in the Post on Saturday that will make this topic strangely opportunistic.

Vesnuccia, an informative website and a great story about balsamic! I'll certainly remember you on a future visit to your wonderful city!

Years ago Phyllis Richman called Park 'n Dine the best restaurant value of any she was aware of.

Absolutely superb representation of your experience. Thank you for taking the time to record and report this. Frankly, as a result of your comments my wife and I will go there for the first time this winter. We've been to Firenze eight or nine times over the past ten years and passed on Enoteca every time thinking it was overblown and would lead to an expensive disappointment. Simply, your photos and description speak of everything but this. In fact this year we'll visit both Enoteca and Le Calandre (my favorite restaurant in Italy) a few days apart. Thank you again for your efforts.

Rocks, I haven't agreed with you many times in the past but based on a dinner tonight for four you were bang on in your analysis. Simply, Yannick is superb-for a 1985 or 1990 restaurant. For 2004 and competition from Maestro, Citronelle and Laboratorio he pales. He simply hasn't shown the imaginative growth that the others have. A very good meal. But this is not enough when you are paying $900 for four people with 300% markup on wine. Yes, he was in the kitchen. Still, there was nothing that was sublime, not the veal chop, nor the foie gras, nor the middling lobster risotto. Overall, a good meal with superb Michelin correct team service. We would return if the price was half of what we were charged. At this level we will go elsewhere next time. Frankly, HE was not on the level of the service presented to us in the dining room.

Coal oven pizza in Rehoboth? Serious?

Calvert Woodley, MacArthur, Schneider's, Chevy Chase-in this order for me then there are also smaller stores with specialty items.

I've written essays about the ""5,000 Mile Hamburger" (http://www.chowhound.com/boards/general18/messages/64210.html), had a wedding dinner on the hood of a convertible at Tommy's in L. A., driven 750 miles round trip to New Haven for pizza (and felt it was worth it) and have built several vacations and business trips around dinners/bratwurst/truffles/pastry in Europe. For me it's not about the cost. It's only whether or not it's worth it. At $400 to 500 for two people Laboratorio, Maestro, Per Se, Le Bernardin, Le Bec Fin, etc. are worth it. A number of others in this range are not. Over twenty years ago I had several dinners like this and my income was a small fraction of what it is now. Then, as now, they were worth it. But a rib dinner in Alabama that I drove 200 miles out of the way for in 1980 was an incredible waste. As was a hamburger in Fort Worth that didn't live up to its hype. Having lost 142 pounds on a diet in '79 and rewarding myself with dinner at Le Francais in Wheeling, IL in '80 on a blind date with four other friends that cost over $1,000 for the six of us (24 years ago!)-this was not only worth it but still one of the finest experiences of my life. It's not about the cost. It's simply whether or not it is worth the investment, effort, time, calories....

Interesting that you're not going to either Laboratorio or Maestro which are on another level from Palena or Nectar. The latter are two are excellent but a different type of experience. For New York I could not imagine not going to Le Bernardin or Per Se. I believe this clarifies our respective choices for the various cities.

The White House in Atlantic City. It tastes even better wrapped for a couple of minutes.