PedroG

Just a little patience, as an addendum to the 1500D user manual http://www.freshmealssolutions.com/ will soon be coming out with a PID-tuning document which is coauthored by three of us EgulleterSousViders. Associated with it will be an Excel sheet to evaluate tuning results, you find a preliminary version here: http://peter-gruber.gmxhome.de/SV/TESTING_PID-SETTINGS.xls . Any suggestions are welcome, I might refine this spreadsheet. BTW with your Banquet Meal Maker BSC400 which seems to be a rectangular side-heater, I should strongly recommend using forced circulation with an aquarium bubbler (for higher temperatures) or an indoor fountain pump (mine works fine up to 58°C). For better insulation, you might cover the water surface with ping pong balls. Regards Pedro Thank you, I will be eagerly waiting for this guide! As for the ping pong balls - the slow cooker has a lid, how would these help? I will look into the bubbler... any suggested types/models as an example? Thanks again! You find Bob Jueneman's "radically condensed version" of the above-mentioned PID-tutorial here: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/678636#5304760 When googling "PID-Controller" you will find many descriptions and tutorials, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller or http://www.learncontrol.com/tutorial/index.html . Please note that different authors define parameters differently. The proportional band P is in degrees in SousVideMagic controllers; in 1500A/B/C P=10 is 1.0°, whereas in 1500D P=10 is 10.0° (at least in the pre-production model it was so). Other authors define P as gain, where Proportional Band = 100/Gain. The integral parameter I may be defined as repeat time in min or sec or as repeats per min or repeats per sec. In all SVMs I is repeat time in seconds; the higher the value, the weaker the action, a zero value means infinitely weak action. The derivative parameter D is in seconds in all SVMs. The higher the value, the stronger the action, and zero value is zero action. Other authors use gain which is reciprocal. All clarities cleared?

The lid helps against evaporation, but is not a very effective insulation. Ping pong balls will add an insulating layer of air. @ aquarium bubbler: use the air stone as a weight to pull the tube to the bottom of the bath, but cut a sideward hole in the tube just above the air stone; the much larger bubbles will produce less cooling by evaporation than the fine bubbles from the stone.

Just a little patience, as an addendum to the 1500D user manual http://www.freshmealssolutions.com/ will soon be coming out with a PID-tuning document which is coauthored by three of us EgulleterSousViders. Associated with it will be an Excel sheet to evaluate tuning results, you find a preliminary version here: http://peter-gruber.gmxhome.de/SV/TESTING_PID-SETTINGS.xls . Any suggestions are welcome, I might refine this spreadsheet. BTW with your Banquet Meal Maker BSC400 which seems to be a rectangular side-heater, I should strongly recommend using forced circulation with an aquarium bubbler (for higher temperatures) or an indoor fountain pump (mine works fine up to 58°C). For better insulation, you might cover the water surface with ping pong balls. Regards Pedro

I did ossobuco with marrow bone at 58.5°C for 12 hours, the meat was pink, succulent and fork-tender, but not falling apart like after traditional braising, and the marrow was soft. For the recipe see http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Ossobuco

Hi therippa, I encourage you to try my http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Brisket_Stroganoff @Bob: for my taste 131°F (55°C) / 48 hrs. is enough for brisket, it comes out pink and tender like tenderloin but more tasty and succulent! Regards Pedro

I am happy with my antiquated "MagicVac", a clamp type machine that was at the time manufactured in Italy and is now continued by Solis. For sous vide cooking, high vacuum or anaerobic conditions are not important, we just want to get air cushions out of the bag to have good heat transmission from the water to the meat and to avoid floating. This may also be accomplished with zip-loc-bags. The high vacuum of expensive chamber type machines is not only unnecessary, it may even compromise the texture of meat especially in fish and poultry, see http://www.cookingissues.com/2009/06/17/boring-but-useful-technical-post-vacuum-machines-affect-the-texture-of-your-meat/ With 30cm wide bags (internally 28cm) you can seal roasts up to a diameter of 89mm which should be sufficient even for large cuts. With cuts more than 70mm thick, you may violate the 6-hour rule to rise temperature from 5°C to 55°C (see Douglas Baldwin's table 2.3 http://amath.colorado.edu/~baldwind/sous-vide.html ); even when taking into account the shorter heating times for cylindrical roasts (table 2.3 is for slabs), see http://amath.colorado.edu/~baldwind//HeatingTimeGeoFactor.pdf , there will be a limit at a diameter of 80mm (4-hr-rule) or 100mm (6-hr-rule). Pedro

Douglas Baldwin's cooking time tables are calculated for "slabs"; for cylindrical roasts, cooking times are significantly shorter, and for spherical roasts even shorter. Thickness refers to twice the shortest distance to the least accessible part of the food, "slab" refers to something between an infinite slab and 2 x 3 x 5 block, "cylinder" refers to something between an infinite cylinder and a 1 x 1 x 5 block, and "sphere" refers to something between a cube and a sphere.

Why upgrade to a Polyscience? With an Auber (which is the same as the SousVideMagic I have) you may achieve stability of ±0.03°C, as I just found with some more tuning experiments. I should rather invest in a NIST-calibrated high-precision thermometer with a resolution of 0.01°C or better and a data logger. If you want to cook on the safe side of 54.4°C but not exceed 55°C, you have to calibrate your sensors and working thermometers! And if you want to perfectly refine your PID-tuning, a data logger will be of great help for multiple closed-loop tuning experiments. BTW autotuning in °C may work acceptably, but in °F results are misleading, as a hysteresis of 1°F is too small. I also think you need not invest in a chamber vacuum machine, as we do not need high vacuums, we just want to avoid air inclusions in the bag. Especially with fish and poultry, vacuum higher than 90% (0.1 bar) may result in a mushy texture. see http://www.cookingissues.com/2009/06/17/boring-but-useful-technical-post-vacuum-machines-affect-the-texture-of-your-meat/ If you marinate your meat, wrap it in PE-clingfilm (not PVC!) before bagging to avoid sucking liquid into the sealing zone; with large amounts of liquid, use the ziploc-immersion method. FYI brisket 48h/55°C is perfect, veal shoulder 24h/55°C is even more melt-in-your-mouth-tender.

I'm not kevin or a chemist, but hey, this is the internet. I did do a reasonable amount of 'controls' work. A PID controller can easily do 0.1C, *if* the system it is controlling is correct. First off, maintaining 0.1C at 'steady state' with no changing outside parameters is pretty easy. Assuming the thermocouple that is responsive enough, and a heater that is powerful enough, "all" you need to do is characterize your system and plug in the P,I and D parameters. A controller might be able to learn this in a specific set-up. It is when you distrub the system, like dumping a thermal load suddenly in it, that it goes off. Now, to regain your footing, you'll have to pump heat into it. So, you will need a more (how much? hard to say) powerful heater. Of course, the heat is localized; to spread it around, you'll want to circulate that water; the more powerful the heater, the harder you will have to circulate. And your PID settings will have to be choosen to have the response you want to that. Of course, the typical water volume, thermal loss to the surroundings, and typical thermal load can all be guessed for most situations to within some kind of sane guess, so I'd bet it wouldn't be too hard to have a system that can not only maintain 0.1C, but recover to it quite quickly. Of course, it might cost ya. With a SousVideMagic and a stockpot (9L sideheater 400W) and a fountain pump, I have longtime stability within ±0.06°C, and disturbance with a 460g iceAKKU of -20°C causes a dip of about 0.5-1.0°C with a recovery time of 15-20min., depending on PID settings. When SousVideMagic is run in °C and not °F, PID-values from autotuning are quite acceptable. My reference thermometer is an ISO-calibrated Greisinger GMH3710 high precision thermometer (Pt100-probe, resolution 0.01°C or 0.01°F) which should be recalibrated yearly, and which I use to regularly calibrate all my other thermometers and SousVideMagic sensors and my Voltcraft K202 data-logger with two K-type thermocouples (resolution 0.1°C or 0.1°F). The price of my sous vide equipment (SousVideMagic and VEGA stockpot and indoor fountain pump) was more than doubled by the precision thermometry and data-logging equipment. I am just finishing a new manual PID tuning series and may probably achieve ±0.05°C stability.

With a SousVideMagic and a stockpot (9L sideheater 400W) and a fountain pump, I have longtime stability within ±0.06°C, and disturbance with a 460g iceAKKU of -20°C causes a dip of about 0.5-1.0°C with a recovery time of 15-20min., depending on PID settings. When SousVideMagic is run in °C and not °F, PID-values from autotuning are quite acceptable.

I've been researching this as well and decided not to go with a new foodsaver because of negative reviews on Amazon and other sites for the newer models. Didn't want to go with a used model so I opted for this: http://www.qualityma...00&click=21247.'>http://www.qualityma...00&click=21247. With bulk bags, I spent @ $350 -- $100 more than I wanted to spend, but I thought safer than buying a used model. Unfortunately the link http://www.qualityma...00&click=21247 is broken, can you post it again? After a link you should always type two blanks or a carriage return, for else eGullet will insert a dot which is included in the link so it won't work. Thanks! BTW I use a MagicVac by Solis of Switzerland which has served me for many years without a problem.

You find the cooking time tables in Douglas Baldwin's Practical Guide: http://amath.colorado.edu/~baldwind/sous-vide.html . These cooking times are calculated for slabs, they are somewhat shorter for near cylindrical or even near spherical roasts.

Dear 3rdCookFOWT, 1. Reheating brisket: 55°C/3h51' from -18°C will do and be safe (55°C is pasteurizing temperature); higher temperature will not shorten cooking time, but once myofibrillar proteins and myoglobin have been denatured be the first 48h of cooking, you may reheat to a higher temperature (maybe 60°C) without turning the meat gray. Anyway, as Bob said, always serve SV-meat on warmed plates. I also agree with Bob that a hot sauce helps give the meat a warm feeling (see also http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Marinated_Brisket ). I'd rather not slice it before reheating to avoid excessive loss of juice, and searing 3mm-slices might quickly overdo them; I prefer 15-20mm slices. 2. Searing in smoking hot oil: rice bran oil is said to have one of the highest smoke points (247°C) allowing very quick browning; I get it from a Thai shop (CHF 4.50 per 500ml), and it is certainly available online. It has a neutral taste like grape seed oil which I use when there is no rice bran oil at hand. 3. Microwave: I consider it to be OK for everything else but meat which risks to be very unevenly overdone. 4. Rice BRAND Oil / Canola oil: to be avoided, it is genetically altered rape seed oil produced in Canada and sold in USA; in Switzerland / Europe, (unaltered) rape seed oil is OK. Regards Pedro

Ouch! I've got a Teriyaki-marinated tri-tip in the cooker as we speak, wrapped in cling wrap from the grocery store in order to avoid the problem of sucking out the marinade with a FoodSaver. Is there any definitive evidence or references, one way or the other, as to the safety of various types of cling wrap, either by brand or by type? What do the manufacturers say? Robert- You should not go cheap for cling wrap that you want to cook with. The brand I use is Saran Wrap Premium. It does not contain the "bad plasticizers" that can leach into food and is good for cooking. Sorry, not very scientific of an answer, but I do not have any of my references here. It is one of the brands that Michel Richard recommends for such procedures in his book "Happy in the Kitchen" (amazing book BTW). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_wrap. As long as you use polyethylene film you are on the safe side, as it does not contain any plasticizers like phthalates (giving the typical plastic odor) as used in polyvinylchloride film. The PE cling film I use is labelled to be safe from -30°C to +80°C. I just saw a package of Ziploc bags in a store today, it was labelled to be PE (polyethylen) and not PVC, so they should be safe.

Ouch! I've got a Teriyaki-marinated tri-tip in the cooker as we speak, wrapped in cling wrap from the grocery store in order to avoid the problem of sucking out the marinade with a FoodSaver. Is there any definitive evidence or references, one way or the other, as to the safety of various types of cling wrap, either by brand or by type? What do the manufacturers say? Robert- You should not go cheap for cling wrap that you want to cook with. The brand I use is Saran Wrap Premium. It does not contain the "bad plasticizers" that can leach into food and is good for cooking. Sorry, not very scientific of an answer, but I do not have any of my references here. It is one of the brands that Michel Richard recommends for such procedures in his book "Happy in the Kitchen" (amazing book BTW). See http://www.answers.com/topic/plastic-wrap. As long as you use polyethylene film you are on the safe side, as it does not contain any plasticizers like phthalates (giving the typical plastic odor) as used in polyvinylchloride film. The PE cling film I use is labelled to be safe from -30°C to +80°C.

No chance with my machine, when I hit "seal", suction continues and heating takes a few seconds to seal, so I should hit "seal" 5 seconds before liquid reaches the sealer, which in contrast to the cling-film method is not foolproof. And while I wash my hands after giving the meat a gentle massage with the creamy marinade, where do I place the meat if not on a piece of cling-film? Et voilà!

I routinely marinate all my meat. Wrapping in cling film before bagging keeps the marinade within the cling film and allows me to apply full vacuum with my clamp machine (see post #2951). As cling film sticks to the bag, I wrap it in paper towel, so it slides easily into the bag, and then pull out the paper towel. -> -> -> -> ->

With a small water bath where the bag rests horizontally, I observed floating even in short time cooking. Now with a 9-Liter stockpot (controlled by a SousVideMagic) bags stay in a vertical position and do not float even in longtime cooking; for easy retrieval of the bags I suspend them on a skewer threaded through the upper rim of the bag, which helps even more against floating. What degree of vacuum does your clamp machine produce? If you do not know, see http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Find_out_how_strong_a_vacuum_your_machine_produces. My old MagicVac does 72% vacuum (0.28 bar). The higher vacuum of a chamber machine may result in a mushier texture, especially in fish and poultry, see http://www.cookingissues.com/2009/06/17/boring-but-useful-technical-post-vacuum-machines-affect-the-texture-of-your-meat/

I did enjoy reading your reply. It is how I like to feel about the cooking that I do, especially when Ed and I make Chinese food together. ← So did I. Sometimes there's an ingredient too bulky for a bowl, then this one will be the last one on the board, see http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gr%C3%...se_en_place.jpg. BTW, after the glass of wine you drink while prepping and the one you drink while cooking, there are the ones you drink while enjoying your meal!

GPStu, there are two advantages of SV over traditional braising: 1. You can (LT/LT) cook and tenderize the meat in a "shoot and forget" manner as opposed to repeatidly checking your stewpot and pouring liquid over the meat, and you can prepare your braising liquid on the stove just before serving. 2. You do not have to sear the meat before cooking, which would lead to some shrinking and squeezing juice out of the meat. Searing meat which falls apart after LT/LT cooking may be difficult, but you may keep a small portion of your meat apart to grind and sear before preparing your braising liquid to give it some "Maillard" flavor.

These is no reason why you can't do this kind of precision braising with basic sous vide equipment, without having to keep an eye on it all the time. Use a rice cooker or a slow cooker, or just a pan on a hot plate, controlled by an SV controller; and put the probe directly in the braising liquid. I would recommend the Sous Vide Magic 1500C for this. The probe is certified food safe, and the newer thermistor/probe is much more linear at the higher temperatures than the older units. If you close the lid of the rice cooker, you will significantly slow down the evaporation, which you may or may not want, depending on whether you are trying to thicken a sauce. ← Jan, as I understand, you do not have specific sous vide equipment like a SousVideMagic Controller with a rice cooker or stockpot, nor an immersion circulator. You can try sous vide cooking with the simple oven-waterpot method (see http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Give_Sous-v...sive_equipment). Before I had an SVM, I did sous vide with this method, and in my experience, a water pot stabilized at around 55°C (for cooking tender cuts of meat) with the oven set at 75°C or even 80°C, water temperature being within ±1°C despite oven temperature varying by ±5°C or more. For cooking tough cuts of meat I achieved water temperature of 75-77°C with oven temperature set at 130°C, which you should be able to reproduce with your "crappy" oven. With 12 hrs. cooking, water evaporation may be an issue, so keep an eye on it. With your oven at 125°C you will probably not be able to keep the liquid temperature in traditional braising in a stewpot at 75-78°C. And as you may not like eating shoe leather, you should observe what Harold McGee (On Food and Cooking, 2004, p.163) says about braising: "Never let the meat interior get anywhere near the boil!" Have fun, and good luck Pedro

24 hrs at 70-75°C should do, I did it successfully with ossobuco ("falling off the bone"). At 80°C meat begins to become shoe-leather. If you have a fountain pump to circulate your waterbath, take it out when going above 55-60°C, otherwise it might melt.

Edit: Added quote from my guide. ← Douglas, I tried "Maillarding" with reducing sugars (I did not have glucose at hand, so I used freshly squeezed grapefruit juice, which contains 2.14% glucose, 2.26% fructose and 2.44% sucrose) on one side of a veal chop (thickness 35mm, SV 53°C/3 hrs.), searing in smoking hot rice bran oil. On the sugar-treated side, there were many tiny black charred dots, whereas the untreated side showed an evenly brown crust. Maybe 247°C (smoke temperature of rice bran oil) is too much with reducing sugars? As I marinate all my meat to allow for safe aging 24 hrs. at ambient temp., maybe the marinade already leaves sufficient carbohydrates on the meat to give a nice brown crust easily? BTW the veal chop came out fork-tender, tasty and juicy.

When I started this topic, I already had a test underway: I cut a veal prime rib roast in 3 equal steaks. No.1 was bagged untreated. No.2 was oil-injected with grapeseed-oil parallel to the muscle fibers, it retained almost no oil, the oil ran out onto the carving board. So it was rubbed with marinade, wrapped in cling foil an bagged. No.3 was oil-injected at right angles to the muscle fibers, and it retained about 6-7% w/w of oil. All steaks were cooked cous vide simultaneously at 51.5°C for 2:45' and seared in smoking hot grapeseed oil for 15 sec. per side. All 3 steaks looked equally rare. Steak No.1 was tender and juicy, but on continued chewing felt less juicy. Steak No.2 (marinated) had a little bit more taste and was tender and juicy even on continued chewing. Steak No.3 (6-7% oil-injected) tasted like Steak No.1, but stayed tender and juicy on continued chewing. Further experiments are needed. Thicker slabs or whole roasts might retain more oil. Retention of oil might be better with palm kernel oil which is solid at temperatures of refrigerated meat and melts at 25-30°C thus necessitating minimal heating to make it injectable, or even coco nut oil (melting at 18-23°C) might do. Injection of vegetable oil might be an alternative to larding with the advantage of introducing less animal fat.

In fact I thought of oil injection as an alternative to larding. I have very good experiences with larded veal prime rib roasts cooked sous vide. Initial juicyness is the same as unlarded, but in continued chewing unlarded veal feels dryer than larded veal as it does not induce salivation as efficiently As my butcher usually has no pure-fat-lardons at hand, bacon strips have to do as well. Larded veal prime rib roast sous vide 54.4°C 6 hours, seared in smoking hot EVOO.