Dave the Cook

I think there's enough acid in the original recipe to keep anything from going bad, but if you're game to modify the recipe according to Suzanne's research, I say 'why not?' But I think there are two other vectors to consider, one significant and the other less so. First, you're using pretty fresh corn. Unless you've planted a pretty advanced hybrid, meaning one not usually available to the home gardener, the sugar in your corn will convert to starch at a rapid rate. According to McGee, 40% of the sugar in an ear of corn will convert to starch in six hours at room temperature. This has no effect on wholesomeness. However, it is possible that this is likely to mute the flavor of the relish in pretty short order. The best preventive I can think of is to get the corn (and the finished dish) under refrigeration as soon as possible. And rather than make one big batch of relish, prep the ingredients for multiple batches, and freeze the corn that you're not going to use immediately until ready for assembly. The second is more speculative, as I have only anecdotal evidence to support it. My observation is that bell peppers tend to sour somewhat within a day or so of being cut. The effect is more pronounced when heat is applied, and it seems to affect green peppers more than red, but I am backed up by Paul Prudhomme, who notes the phenomenon in Louisiana Kitchen. So, to sum up: - reserve cilantro until ready to serve - experiment with additional acid, in the form of more balsamic, lemon juice (though now that i think about it, lime seems more appropriate), or a combination - consider adding garlic to the recipe; it has preservative potential - if you want to make additional servings, prep the necessary corn ahead of time and freeze until ready to use; time is of the essence - note the effect of refrigerating cut capsicum; it may be souring while it is stored, though this is far from certain - consider adding a touch of honey to compensate for additional acidity of lemon/lime juice and loss of sugar in corn; honey is also a preservative hope this helps!

Yes. This was earlier in the thread: If you're doing it for some special taste, I wouldn't bother. But if you decide to go that way, you'll need to weigh it. Then compare it to kosher salt and adjust the amount you use according to the Colonel's formula above.

If you let meat brine too long (say, two or three days for turkey, two or three hours for shrimp), the texture takes a definite turn for the worse. And to repeat, if it's not water-soluble, it can't take advantage of osmosis, therefore it won't affect flavor.

I might go take a look at them, because they would be likely to handle it properly. Otherwise, I'll go frozen. At least I will know the state it's been it since it was processed. With so much going on at Thanksgiving, consistency and predictability get a slight edge over quality. And it's not like a frozen Honeysuckle® is going to be a bad turkey. btw, Honeysuckle is owned by Cargill®.

Yeah, you're right. I just wanted to give the tea time to perfume the flesh. Bagged tea:

I like Gavin's notion of using tea. Could you put a few lemon slices and sprinkle some oolong in the cavity, then bake it slowly?

dave, nice avatar. how much could a kosher turkey possibly cost? is it that much better? i'm thinking that the extra expenditure once a year probably isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things. It's not a big deal, especially if you compare it to free-range and/or organic turkey. I mention it because not everybody will want, or have the opportunity, to splurge, and your basic supermarket bird will benefit from brining. Besides, every penny saved on turkey can be spent on wine. it takes up more space put it outside in a cooler with a pile of gel packs it takes more equipment in the way of a large vessel see previous it takes more thought you seem like a pretty bright fella the first-timer runs the risk of having an over-salty or over-sweet bird follow directions and go easy on the sugar until you know your taste--oh, wait a minute, that requires thought. See previous. your family looks at you funny when you suggest it only when you suggest it? your family looks at you funny because you're wilfrid can't help you there steak well, there is that Avatar: right back atchya, tommy

I've never brined a turkey before but I'm tempted to this year. "Salty" concerns me a little. I always have a few Seniors for Thanksgiving. I fight the battle between bland and spicey when I cook for them (spicey usually wins ) However if the meat tastes "salty" I think I'll get compaints. Any experiences or opinions? Thanks It's a matter of opinion, but I would not characterize a properly brined bird as salty--I would say 'well-seasoned.' I've never had a complaint about saltiness. I am convinced that under-salting during cooking results in over-salting at the table. Turkey is particularly susceptible to this because dried-out breast meat has practically no flavor, and people reach for the salt cellar instinctively. When you first prepare a brine, you might be shocked at how much salt is required. But keep in mind that you only need all that salt because you need a lot of water to cover that big bird. The amount of brine that ends up in the turkey is actually pretty small. I suppose you could make an approximation of how much sodium is getting into the meat by doing a before-and-after weigh in. Figure the difference, and, knowing the density of the brine, make a calculation. But I am pretty sure that the total sodium content would not be above that of one of those pre-injected turkeys that are so common these days. If one of those would be OK for your guests, I think you could brine a natural bird without reservation. Alternatively, you can adjust the strength of the brine. Just don't brine a pre-injected bird, or a kosher bird. Kosher turkeys, while technically not brined, are processed in such a way that you will get a similar result. I've tried both, and I prefer brining, because I can control the seasoning. Also, kosher turkeys are quite expensive. CathyL:

What happens after a day that makes it seem bad? Off taste? Color change? Smell? Texture? For Yanks, 'capsicum' could mean a lot of different peppers. Is this what we would call a bell pepper, or is it more like a jalapeno? In my experience, different peppers 'age' differently once they are chopped up, so this might be significant. snowangel might also be on to something, especially since you are using fresh corn. How fresh is it? Do you grow your own, or is this from the market, and is it local or imported?

This will indeed make a nice turkey. Brining would make it better. Calling it 'faff' doesn't change the science behind it. Why not try it and see for yourself?

Excellent tip. I usually buy some wings and roast them the weekend before to make stock, if I remember in time. The wings have plenty of gelatin, and the stock can be substituted for chicken in generic situations, should you make more than is needed.

The scientific explanation for brining goes like this: 1. The solution of sugar and salt in which the meat is immersed exceeds the concentration inside the meat. Nature being what it is, the liquid inside and outside the meat seek equilibrium, so the brine moves into the meat. (those like me, who missed that quarter in high-school chemistry, might be interested to know that this is called osmosis. Personally, I had other chemistry on my mind...). 2. As the brine insinuates itself into the tissue, the proteins in the meat ravel from their normally coiled state into longer strands that interact with each other more readily. These strands form a matrix that holds the water and seasoning in the meat. 3. As the meat heats up, the matrix firms, trapping the brine inside the cooked meat. Voila! Juicier, better seasoned turkey! Better living through science! Call it smug if you will, but it's better turkey (or chicken or pork or shrimp). Note: By definition, a brine includes salt, and it is the salt that is responsible for the denaturing. Other water-soluble substance can be carried along with the salt, but suspended particles can't physically penetrate the cell walls. This explains why sugar, salt, cider and vinegar work, but most spices and herbs have little or no effect, except to season the exterior of the meat. (This also describes the difference between a brine and a marinade.) Brining does not diminish the effects of other seasoning practices, including specific techniques like stuffing herbs under the skin, or stashing some citrus in the cavity. Just remember that, chemically speaking, these flavors cannot penetrate deeply into the flesh in the way that brining can. And watch the salt. After brining, there's almost never a need to add salt. I also suggest timing your brining so that the turkey can be air dried post-brining, since bring tends to leave the skin kind of flabby. Drain the brine, rinse the turkey (pretty important), and set it on a rack in the refrigerator (uncovered) for six to eight hours. In other words, brine your bird on Wednesday, drain and rinse it Wednesday night, and let it air dry over night. Air drying makes it easier to achieve a well-browned surface. My personal preference for turkey is a combination of water, apple cider and salt. Too much sugar and the turkey starts to get hammy--especially the dark meat. It's not a bad taste at all, but it's not turkey to me.

You've got two pretty powerful preservatives there in the chile and vinegar. I'm guessing that the problem is not so much spoilage as it is flavor development/deterioration. Is this correct, or is it really spoliage?

My answer will depend on what you mean by "sugary." Are we referring to sucrose, the granulated white substance that most people call sugar? Or something else? Perhaps a concoction that, while bearing a step-relationship to sucrose, is actually the invention of one who does not feel constrained by the customary definition? The ease with which this practice is employed outweighs the confusion it causes. Surely.

I look forward to a complete description of the final product. I am especially interested in the "rice pudding" special sauce, since I am speculating that it might have no rice in it whatsoever, but will only hint at the idea of rice, or will be simply your interpretation of what rice ought to be. Everyone knows that it is beneath a chef of your considerable creative powers to actually call something what it really is.

Suvir, I believe you are avoiding the issue. Cough up the recipe!

Just in case this is some sort of expertiment in democracy, and the method with the most votes wins, I do the same as lelenovym though I'm not sure where i learned it; I've never read an Alice Waters cookbook. The reason for the ice water bath is to create an air space between the shell and the egg. If you let the eggs sit in the water too long, the air space dissipates--egg shells are porous. Two to five minutes works. Less and the shells are too hot to handle; more and the air leaks out and you've lost the edge.

Actually a hangover cure, but since a sour stomach is often an accompaniment: Put a teaspoon of butter in a small bowl Cook two three-minute eggs While the eggs are cooking, medium- toast a slice of sourdough or good rye bread Empty the eggs into the bowl, add a shot of light shoyu, several grinds of black pepper and a few drops of Tabasco. Give it a light stir. Consume by spooning a bit of egg onto the toast and eating the toast. Concentrate on making it come out even (more important then you might think). I hope you're feeling better soon.

Chocolate and curry? Then what you want is a mole! Or is it molé?

I've found pretty much the same thing, although I have some recipes called curry that do not call for "curry powder." The seasonings common to all the recipes are chiles, ginger, coriander, turmeric and curry leaves. Other frequently mentioned flavors are garlic, fenugreek, cumin and cinnamon. Mustard seeds also make an appearance. This basic + dependent variables makes it kind of like five-spice powder. Suvir, what are curry leaves?

I cook for people who don't feel bad. And, especially, for those who do. i pity those who don't cook for people who feel bad. I feel for people who cook for bad people. I feel people who cook and aren't bad people. For I cook people who don't feel bad. I don't cook for bad people. Don't feel bad, for I cook people. Feel bad for people who I don't cook. I don't feel bad for cook people. Don't cook people who I feel bad for. Bad cooks don't feel people.

I think grill-roasting gives you a superior result, but-- --you can grill a turkey if you butterfly it, you have a grill that's big enough to hold it, and a way to flip the sucker over without making it a sacrifice to the neighborhood dogs. It's a high-heat method, so be sure to brine your bird (you should anyway), and mind the fact that you've got different thicknesses of meat, and meat (legs v. breast) that cooks at different rates. But butterflying a turkey is at least an order of magnitude more difficult than butterflying a chicken, so be prepared for a struggle (big knife, shears and a rubber mallet are de rigeur)--it's more like butterflying a VW Beetle.

snowangel: Short version: there are implications if your recipe uses chemical leaveners. You should use Dutch cocoa in recipes that call for baking powder; if the recipe uses baking soda, you should use regular cocoa. Longer version: Dutch cocoa is cocoa that has been processed with alkalai. This raises its pH from around 5.5 to about 7, making it almost neutral. Unless your recipe calls for leavening, it doesn't matter whether you use regular or Dutch; many people prefer Dutch cocoa because it is smoother (though some will say smoothness sacrifices deeper chocolate flavor). It really is a matter of taste, and you should use whichever one you want, unless you are working with pastry. In this case, the less acidic Dutch cocoa is usually preferred. An eGullet pastry person can probably advise you better than me. Dave

Grant: I understand your dilemna. Look at it this way (a la Alice Trillin): your Webers are old--they need to be replaced. You're serious about barbecue, so it's not unreasonable that you should replace your old Webers with a new one. You could buy a Big Green Egg. Out of parsimony or caution, you decide not to. But look!-- a Char-Griller Pro Smoker is $200 (including shipping)! You can easily afford this, since you've got that money you didn't spend on the BGE. Simple, no? Gas grills are not just unaesthethic (although I admit to a pang of envy seeing those gas giants Bobby Flay has on his old shows), they are not barbecues. Your instincts are straight and true. Just because you're cooking outside doesn't mean you're barbecuing. As we say down South, "you can put your kittens in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits."

Russ Parsons has a great recipe for pork ribs (country style) and Italian sausages with soft polenta in his book. Very hearty and highly recommended. Like Suzanne was saying, a lot of sauce left over for a second meal.