MikeTMD

Sartain, I believe nathanm defined "resting time" as the period during which internal temperature stops rising and begins to fall, so it's really plateau time rather then resting time. You don't have to let your cooking bag sit for an hour after SV poaching, in fact I would strongly advise against it for Food Safety reasons - you choices are to serve immediately, or to cool your cooking bag rapidly, and refrigerate till service. As far as how long to keep your SV bags refrigerated prior to service - you will hear a wide range of opinions on this matter, primarily because there isn't a magic number. Personally, I would be equally comfortable with 24-48-72 hour span, but, again, there will be other suggestions.

Well, my favorite buffalo vendor was not at the Farmer's Market today, so the "only" other choice was bison from Twin Valley Farm in Wisconsin. I opted for tenderloin, primarily because of the smaller cut size ( and as such - lower total cost), as well as perfect SV-ready packaging. The vendor lady warned me that bison cooking time would be about half compared to similar cuts of beef, she also said: "... if you overcook it - you ruin it". I explained that I would cook the meat in the vacuum bag, at a very low temperature - she appeared a bit confused: "I never heard of anything like that..." I cooked the tenders at 60F for about 20 minutes, and held them at temperature for another 10 minutes - just enough to reduce veal stock to lucious demi, then seasoned the meat and seared it at high heat for 20-30 on each side before plating. The texture of bison tender cooked SV is incredible - it is, literally, as soft as a marshmallow. Will make again anytime. NB: 60F - medium-rare, more on the rare side - I don't know if bison tenders could sustain temperature any higher than that, without loosing juiciness and taste.

jaymer, What type of SV equipment do/did you use for your brisket?

Last night I SV large shrimp ( w/heads, shells, claws - everything) - I had to triple bag those ( claws are very sharp), so, although there was no air in the bags I ended up with a lot of unnecessary "insulation", and as such had to adjust temps to 50C. Fairly speaking, that was barely enough to cook shrimp to rare. So, lessons learned: - shell-on shrimp requires higher SV temps - when cooking shell-on shrimp thermometer/temp reading is essential - three bags create an extra heat barrier, so SV T/time s/b adjusted accordingly

2L capacity is large enough for 2-4 individually packed 8oz portions, isn't it?

All right - I just finished my lat night SV dinner: Veal Liver - cooked to 140F/60C for 40 minutes + demi glace + caramelized onions + duck fat fries ( not healthy, but so good!) 140F cooks veal liver to perfect medium, leaving a touch of pink color - liver solidifies very nicely, and is a lot easier to handle after cooking. I prefer my liver on somewhat medium-rare side - I would like it at 130F, but it's a very personal choice ( regretfully, most wouldn't touch liver no matter how it is cooked). I suspect high heat and clarified butter would be a better way to caramelize veal liver after cooking, although medium heat/non-stick griddle is acceptable. Veal liver vs/ foie: foie should be SV at higher temps (Broca recommends 140F), and would brown nicely on medium-high heat, whereas veal liver is fairly lean, and as such calls for lower temp range.

Look what I found - both waterbaths are very reasonably priced: http://www.aibltd.com/detail.cfm?autonumber=47019 and http://www.aibltd.com/detail.cfm?autonumber=69076

Does anyone have first-hand experience of veal liver SV? What temperature should it be brought up to?

Porter & Frye/Hotel Ivy 1115 Second Avenue South Minneapolis, MN 55403 http://porterandfrye.com/ http://www.ivympls.com/ Full picture set posted on www.flickr.com I am a good cook, and my work impressed a few people along the way – it has always felt great. That said, I can only imagine what it feels like to have a talent of a kitchen genius, along with the virtuoso ability that comes with that territory. I can only imagine what it feels like to be Thomas Keller, Grant Achatz, Willie Dufresne or Steven Brown. For those of you who are not familiar with the latter uber-talented chef (not yet, anyway) - you will get to know him, for the talent of that caliber will sooner or later be known nationally, not because of a boy-band looks and posse, or a European accent most associate with wit, charm and, for some unknown to me reason, ability to make great food. You will hear about Steven Brown, and you will get to know him because of what he does, and how he does it. Chef Brown is a phenomenal talent. Needless to say, I was nothing short of overwhelmed with anticipation when I booked a table at Porter&Frye, a three-month old restaurant in the historic Ivy Tower in downtown Minneapolis. I was impressed by how attentive the person on the other end of the phone was when I called, how she asked me about my preferences and dislikes while discussing the tasting menu, and how she promised me that Maestro himself would call me to talk about my dinner. Good and promising, I thought. Not a moment too soon, I found myself at the door of Chef’s Brown restaurant on a Wednesday night – excited and curious at the same time. The restaurant was a bit busier than I thought it was going to be on a mid-week night, which was a good sign – food must be good to attract that kind of crowd (later, I asked one the managers about how busy they’ve been – she strongly encouraged weekend reservations, and told me that on weekends the lower level in the house is reservation-only, although they try to keep the upper level open for walk-ins). I am not going to take a lot of time describing the interior, although I was impressed by it, but I would like to mention the staircase leading to the Porter & Frye’s lower level. It’s an intriguing structure, leading diners through the open levels of the legendary tower, ending at the black and red clad interior of the lower level dining room. I was promptly seated and offered water in old-fashioned thick glass bottle – quite a nice touch. Noteworthy, the water was close to room temperature and no ice was offered, but it still looked good. My server confirmed our tasting menu plan, we briefly discussed wine, and agreed to start with 2006 McManis Viognier - a very good choice as it were. The Viogner was very flavorful, soft and full of Muscat-like flavors, perfect for pairing with anything from poultry to fruit. At that point I was offered bread - generally, unless the bread is house-made I don’t pay much attention to it, but here I simply had to – that bread should’ve never gone out: the baguette was warmed-up and crusty, but completely flattened, as if that loaf came from the bottom of the box, or was packed in too tightly in a bread basket. I was a bit surprised, but did not complain – I was there for the food, after all. I had a few minutes to look at the diners around me, as my amuse took a while to appear, I noticed that most had time between courses - not sure if it was by design, but it was nice to see people actually engaging into conversation over dinner, something most don’t do too often. About 30 minutes into my dinner, I was served Mala-Mala Oyster with Celery and Green Almond. Server described this dish as "oyster with celery puree", although its consistency was a little thinner than I would expect. Oyster itself was served room temperature, and was nice and "meaty". I would've preferred it be on the colder side, but overall it was a good way to start a meal. I am not certain if they would call the oyster plate an amuse or an appetizer, so I was eagerly and patiently waiting for the things to come. At that point, I ordered another glass of white -2007 Joel Gott Sauvignon Blanc. It was very light, soft (which is what I like) but pleasant, and not at all citrus-laden. It would’ve been even better at the beginning of my meal, as a Sauvignon Blanc like this would pair well with only very light fare, in my opinion, but I was very pleased with it, nonetheless. My second course was Braised Cabbage with Spring Vegetables, Lime Dressing and Crispy Tortilla Strips. Cabbage was perfectly braised - great illustration of cooking craftsmanship. Everything else on the plate was mediocre- vegetables were crispy, but had very little taste, lime dressing tasted more like garlic tahini spiked with lime - not a bad idea, but not on this plate, crispy tortilla strips were crunchy, but nothing else. I would expect to see something like this on Applebee's menu, but not in a fine dining restaurant - major disappointment. Next course was Seared Scallop with Bitter Greens and Bitter Orange. The scallop was seared to absolute perfection, and glazed with something sweet. Bitter greens ( Swiss Chard or Collards, I assume) were cooked very well, but overall taste was a touch too bitter for me, Bitter Orange made this dish taste "bitter on bitter" , and did not add a different sensation on the palate. This was an OK plate, though. I was wondering about the pace of my meal at that point – scallop followed cabbage in a timely manner, but the first two courses were separated by thirty minutes each. It was a little chaotic. My server steered me in the red wine territory, and I’ve gladly complied, choosing 2004 Northstar Merlot - great red from WA State. It had a lot of smoke and vanilla, and very low tannins - outstanding domestic wine. My next plate happened to be Bacon-crusted Foie Gras with Foie Gras Sauce and Pickled Ramp. I love seared Foie, and although my favorite epicurean pen pal would disagree (wink-wink, UE) - how could well-seared foie gras be bad? It was good, but monochromatic. I wish there was more to say, but this is as much as I have on my mind just two days after the meal – regretfully. Foie Gras plate was very rich, and little else. It was, no doubt, expensive, but I wish it had the kind of flavor I was expecting from Chef Brown’s kitchen, alas – not this time. My second red was 2005 Dusted Valley Stained Tooth Syrah – powerful, yet delicate wine, with prominent honey and lavender overtones. I would suggest pairing it with squab, game and flavorful cuts of red meat, like flat iron steaks or hanging tenders. My meat course was Kobe Beef Short Rib with Cheese, Smoked Mashed Potatoes and Maple Syrup. This was my favorite dish of the night - short ribs were cooked sous-vide, topped with an amazing Brie-like cheese ( both me and my server missed the name), paired with smoked mashed potatoes and spiked with maple syrup. Short ribs were very hearty, but not at all greasy -great dish. I was about two and a half hours into my meal, and all of a sudden the kitchen picked up a fast pace. My cheese plate was Camembert with Lyle's Golden Syrup, Pine Nuts and Rosemary Crisp. Nice cheese course, I thought. Apparently, Lyle’s Golden Syrup is the new “it” thing, as I’ve been told. Well, Her Majesty made a fine choice – back in 1911. I am curious to see how popular that sweet British condiment is going to become in our corners, but let’s move on. Before we do - I am reluctant to admit something: I was asked about my dislikes before dinner, and I told them that I don’t like nuts, yet cheese plate had a small mound of pine nut morsels – I was not certain what to make of that, but out of respect said nothing. Under different circumstances, I would’ve sent the cheese plate back. My final plate of the night was Cheesecake. This was an interesting dish, for a few reasons. Cheesecake filling, almonds, poached rhubarb, macerated strawberries and caramel are great individual flavors, but I questioned how well, if at all, they were working together. My server told me the dish evolved three times since the restaurant open, and I can see why – this is clearly a work-in-progress project for Chef Brown and his crew. On a personal note, this dish made me feel unwelcome: almonds are popular and tasteful, but to ask someone of their preferences, and to disregard them so bluntly by sending two nut dishes in a row – I couldn’t help but wonder what went wrong with the kind of talent and host Chef Brown happens to be. The crescendo of the meal came in the form of Mignardines. I loved everything about it: presentation, taste, texture, flavors – everything. Paired with the flight of icewine, Tokaj and Muscat it was the delight I anticipated, and nothing short of that. I’ve asked for an opportunity to thank Chef Brown and his team, unfortunately Chef left earlier in the evening, before my dinner began, which gave me an idea why things went subpar for my table. Still, I thanked the crew that appeared youthful, enthusiastic and by modern kitchen standards, experienced. I wish them well. In conclusion, I would still want to echo what a helpful hostess told me during my dinner: walleye and swordfish made by Porte & Frye chefs are excellent, as well as steaks their guests can’t stop enjoying, the house is full on the weekends, and reservations are recommended. On a personal note, I’ve just read in a local newspaper that Doug Flicker – yet another local talent of remarkable caliber is about to join Porter&Frye as a line cook, and I am excited to see what Chef Brown, the man that once prepared on the best meals I can remember, will do next. For right now, and in good faith, I simply cannot recommend Porter & Frye as a dinner destination.

I've been reading the last few posts with a great deal of interest, but how do those ultra-complex matters help us cook better SV food? Are we getting off the cooking track, and into the murky waters of physical chemistry, where most participants involved in the discussion are simply lacking proficiency and competence? In plain English - what's the purpose of all of that?

Try any art supplies store in your town - they sell acetate sheets by pcs.

Thanks for your reply, VW, Glad we established the difference between the two: true squabs have never flown, whereas doves are flying birds. Squab breasts have "livery" or "bloody" taste, which is quite unique. According to Squab Producers of California: "...Of importance to note: the fat of the Squab is "baby fat", UNDER the skin not WITHIN the meat, and renders off in cooking)." Much like you said: both doves and squabs are perfect for SV - tender poultry with a taste and texture of steak deserves and calls for precise cooking approach.

NOTE FROM HOSTS: some of this discussion on squab has been moved over from the general topic on Sous Vide cooking. Thanks, VW, Do you hunt doves? How are they different from squabs? ( I never had one)

I've finally got to try SV squab. A 1.5 lbs bird was cooked at 60C for 2 hours with salt and pepper, just enough to cook breast to medium-rare. Both breasts were separated from the carcass ( see below), the seared for 30 sec. on each side and served with roasted yellow beets, house made blood sausage and beet juice demi-glace. Breast meat was near perfect: quite juicy, tender, with a shot of game taste, but not undercooked at all (although not quite as tender as chicken breast SV at the same temp). I would recommend 60C for medium-rare squab breast, with temp adjustment to the right degree of doneness.

MaxH, Is this in any way applicable to SV, where cooking is done in a vacuum/closed cooking bag?

Vacuum chamber machines are generally powerful enough to compress fruit and veggies in to a terrine-like stack.

I agree with you 100% - lets ask a proficient physical chemist for clarification, and move on to other SV related issues.

Do you mean to say you don't have a vacuum sealer and that you are cooking cryovac'd foods in the plastic you purchased them in? ← I usually ask a mom-pop butcher down the street to use their vacuum-chamber machine to seal my bags after I fill them ( for a $1 per bag - truly a bargain). That said, I buy Cryovac'd portioned flat iron steaks and hanging tenders from a wholeseller, and - guilty as charged, SV them in the industrial strength vacuum bags they come in, but season them agressively prior to browning.

Do you mean vacuum sealed by FoodSaver type equipment? I am not very familiar with FS - does it just vacuum-seal the cooking bags, or does it create some kind of vacuum? ( I always used a vacuum chamber machine packaged food - sometimes at the cost of having better vacuum over proper and essential seasonigs and spices)

Does this mean you are giving up and admitting the material in your books is incorrect and in some cases confusing to the point that it may as well be incorrect? I just want to know before I spend the time pointing out the flaws. If you are giving up I will as well. ← I never meant for this discussion to become competitive - my primary goal is to learn what can I do to enjoy better food ( prepared by others, or otherwise). So it is not about "giving up", or "staying the course". There is a difference of opinions - no doubt, but every point of view should be heard. As such, please share yours.

Although R&B mention rigid containers in the book (specifically - jars), virtually all of their SV cooking ( "direct" and "indirect", according to their classification) is done in various types of flexible bags, and as such, those containers are the primary subject of their research and conclusions. There was some heavy criticism of the points above, which is why I had to quote this particular paragraph. The contents of the bag are under vacuum, which is by definition less than atmospheric pressure. R&B are quite clear on this one - the title of the highlighted text box is “Sealing in shrink bags: guaranteed pressure”. The theory of SV is interesting and important, indeed. Personally, I would like to concentrate on SV recipes, techniques and experiences, at this time.

Absolutely. The following references are from "Sous-vide Cuisine", Joan Roca/Salvador Brugués, Montagud Editores S.A. Original title: La Cocina al Vacio First published in 2003 by Montagud Editores, S.A. ©Third English edition: Montagud Editores, S.A. 2007 ©Joan Roca and Salvador Brugués ©Francesc Guillamet ©Michael Debbane ©Montagud Editores, S.A. Copyright Registration: B-26942-2007 ISBN: 978-84-7212-112-6 Chapter 3. Sous-vide Cooking , p.51 “We can broadly define cooking sous-vide as heating the food previously sealed in an airtight and heat-resistant container whose atmosphere has been modified ( a vacuum has been produced,, with or without elements such as gases, liquids, etc.).” Chapter 3. Sous-vide Cooking , p.76 “ In the vacuum, the atmospheric pressure acting on the packaged product causes the water to vaporize before it would in the conventional cooking, in which pressure does not have as great of an impact on the final result (this means that the food will experience the effects of water vaporization at lower temperatures, along with all consequent modifications). This is therefore a very important fact that distinguishes sous-vide cooking from traditional methods.” “ Pressure is one of the fundamental principles on which sous-vide is based, since it what allows a vacuum-sealed product to cook at low temperatures. Nonetheless, it remains a subject seldom studied by cooks-even though they have an inkling of its vast possibilities, the still don’t use it as a fundamental principle when cooking or intentionally seeking positive alteration of foods.” Chapter 3, Sous-vide Cooking/ Technical Fundamentals p.84 “Our aim is to discover the why and how of the sous-vide cooking system through the analysis of the following parameters: - Oxygen-free atmosphere - Airtight containers and effect on pressure - The time/temperature relationship THE OXYGEN-FREE ATMOSPHERE In this section we study a factor that plays a crucial role in cooking foods and, as a result, in their final quality… One of these potential alterations, … ,is oxidation, a reaction that occurs when oxygen bonds with other elements in food. Let us remember that these alterations manifest themselves in changes in color, odor, flavor, in its organic properties, etc. When we cook sous-vide, and thus without oxygen, we prevent these reactions.4 … Another area affect by a lack of oxygen is enzymatic reactions, because the enzymes’ behavior is inhibited." Bottom of the page, left corner, light grey font: “4. The majority of food reactions are hydrolysis or oxidation; therefore, these reactions must be slowed to preserve or improve preparations. One way of doing this is to eliminate one of the reactants ( in this case oxygen).” Chapter 3, Sous-vide Cooking/ Technical Fundamentals p.85 “AIRTIGHT CONTAINERS AND THE EFFECTS OF PRESSURE COOKING SOUS-VIDE WITH THE EFFECT OF PRESSURE Pressure has a fundamental effect on foods and provides a series of advantages in preparation that would be difficult to attain by traditional methods. The bag in this case acts as a second skin or direct protection for the ingredient ( especially in the case of shrink bags) and subjects it to constant pressure. The main functions of the airtight containers are: 1. To support or hold the ingredient’s natural structure so that it does not break apart (e.g., foie gras). 2. To exert equal pressure over the entire surface of the ingredient. This evens out the cooking time for many ingredients (e.g., asparagus). 3. To prevent changes in weight from the ingredient drying out during cooking, thanks to the airtight container and the use of low temperatures. 4. To stop aromas from volatilizing, thereby enriching the preparation. The container helps to lock in the ingredient’s natural flavors; in fact, it serves the purpose of closing pores. This also occurs in cooking by concentration, but here there is no need to apply high temperatures that could denature or alter the ingredient’s initial flavor.” “Sealing in shrink bags: guaranteed pressure” (highlighted in grey, upper left corner ,p.85) “ All vacuum-packaged foods are subject to exterior pressure due to the absence of air in the bag. Sous-vide preparation sometimes requires the product to remain under pressure during the cooking process. Certain ingredients subjected to high temperatures during sous-vide cooking do release water vapor due to the heating of their own water.6 The bag then undergoes some interior pressure, causing it to lose some of the effect we are looking for.” Middle of the page, footnote, highlighted in grey: ”6. In sous-vide conditions, water vapor forms at much lower temperatures than in normal atmospheric pressure conditions.” I don’t know if a definition of vacuum is even needed at this point, but according to The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language (Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.): vac•u•um (v k y - m, -y m, -y m) n. pl. vac•u•ums or vac•u•a (-y - ) 1. a. Absence of matter. b. A space empty of matter. c. A space relatively empty of matter. d. A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure. I hope this answers most of the questions we have discussed this week.

Daniel, how did you make uni mayo?

slkinsey, thank you for your reply and input, among many other things it cools things down a bit. Later today I would post references to support the statements I made above, and hopefully put this issue to rest. The physics and mechanics of SV process are important, although personally I am more interested in practical applications, such as temp/time, taste/texture experiences, etc. After all, this is a epicurean blog, although I am sure physicists have at least one of their own. :-)

Sea Urchin is most certainly an acquired taste for those of us who live in the New World. Right after I saw phenomenal pictures made by Ulterior Epicure made at the L'Atelier De Joel Robuchon in NYC (posted on flickr) , and read a review of a particular uni dish - my faith was sealed. I had to make it! Here is what the final result looked like: Mechanics/prep: plate was freezer-chilled, brush-painted with extra virgin olive oil mixed with yuzu juice, thinly slices of 10/20 scallop were fanned at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock, garnished with chives and extra-bold black pepper, four pcs. of uni were placed between scallop slices, sprinkled with lemon juice, and garnished with fennel fronds and frisee. Original dish appears to contain Pimente D'Espellete or similar pepper dusting - much desired complimentary taste. This is truly a very nice combination of flavors. Please share your Uni taste memories, or perhaps ideas of what you'd pair with it. It's got to be a fun ride!