Wilfrid

I don't eat a lot of pizza, so I looked at a couple of unremarkable take-out pizza joints around midtown today. Small pies start at around $9.50/$10. Mario's apparently start at $8. God forbid we should complain about a bargain, but I am still having trouble understanding this. In the nice weather, he might put a stand outside selling eighty cent slices.

I apologize for getting my hectares and acres wrong. I am clearly right about everything else. Turning momentarily to restaurants, I was trying to come up with a sample of London restaurants which might be described as just a step down from the top tier. I am not sure that I've done very well, but I came up with: Bibendum Chez Bruce Club Gascon Pied a Terre Richard Corrigan St John Zafferano And then I tried pairing them against a New York bunch: Blue Hill Cafe Boulud Craft Gotham Bar and Grill March Union Pacific Veritas What do you all think? It may be that someone could come up with a better list for London (it's not supposed to be comprehensive, but I tried to make a list of good places). Earlier, Yvonne compared St John favorably with Blue Hill. Intriguing. St John's menu is more up my street than the menu at Blue Hill, and I have a lot of respect for Fergus Henderson, but the technical standards at Blue Hill seem a lot higher. I have had many more imprecise dishes at St John, even though the style of cooking requires less expertise. (Mark - not off topic, just a heavy emphasis on one aspect. Remember, this is "restaurants, cuisine and travel, and boy do you need to travel to get to Hornchurch Country Park from Central London )

I think listing accurate figures with citations is not so much "Wilfrid's way" as the "sensible way". You continue to compare apples and oranges, of course, since the figures I gave were not for "green spaces" but for parks managed by the New York Parks Department. And you have indeed included the entire city, with a vengeance. If you want to talk about the Thames Valley, the Ingrebourne marshes and the River Lea, I think we should be permitted to haul in the Adirondacks. Would you like to tell the class how many miles Ingrebourne is from Trafalgar Square? Not necessary. It's over twenty miles. Which distance, from Times Square, would take you way into New Jersey or the other end of Westchester County in upstate New York.

People might not get their phraseology picked to pieces if there was less of the barking triumphalism along the lines of "you may as well concede now, this is getting embarrassing", especially when the temple of victory is erected on the marshmallow-like foundations of unreferenced figures from someone who doesn't know a hectare from an acre. So there.

Sigh. 26,138 hectares is about 40% of 28,000 acres (the latter figure being an underestimate). JJS, why not just take a deep breath and let us all know where your figures are from.

I agree with Soba's very good points, although I fear they may be wasted on those who think 59th Street is in Lower Manhattan. Rarely, even on eGullet, have I seen facts selected so carefully in order to win a point. I am now relishing the new phrase "inner city Manhattan", which I've certainly never heard before. - a phrase of such precise semantic extension that it includes Central Park but not Riverside Park, which of course runs co-extensively with Central Park for a good part of its length, just a few blocks west. JJS - your figures. It would help me if you have a citation, not because I doubt the accuracy of your reading, but because the New York figures are no less than forty per cent out from the figure I referenced on the New York Parks Department offical web-site. I wonder how your source is defining the cities? Incidentally, the figure I gave of 28,000 acres managed by the Parks Department grossly underestimates the total acreage, since there are also some large State-run parks. I may be wrong about this comparison, but having studied maps of New York and London, I have always had the distinct impression that the former city is much greener than the latter.

Perhaps replace "metropolitan center" with something like "metropolitan center (by an eccentric pinprick definition which relegates Hampstead and a third of Manhattan to the suburbs"). You have certainly demonstrated that the bit of London where the parks are has more parks than the bit of New York where the parks aren't. Incidentally, you might want to reconsider your notion that Central Park is in Lower Manhattan. I was working with what I thought was a roughly acceptable definition of London and New York as, in each case, the entire city. But thanks for helping me out of my confusion.

I would like to formally ask you to amend the above post accordingly, so that we may retain an accurate record for posterity.

Kiku, what is "puerile" is your assumption that "NYC" and "Manhattan" can be substituted in propositions without affecting the proposition's truth value. We wouldn't be wasting time if you expressed yourself carefully. Of course there are fewer larger green areas in Lower Manhattan than in the London postal districts you defined. And so what?

Er, is anyone disputing JJS's figures? He may be confusing his hectares with his acres. Since a hectare is less than half an acres, his figures are not consistent with those of the New York Park Department. What I am disputing, in a rather hyper and obsessive way, is Kiku's ability to count parks in the metropolitan areas of London and New York. Prospect Park? Bronx Park? Hampstead Heath? C'mon, what else you got?

Yes, canola for everyday frying. But let's not overlook butter; if my aim is a rich dish, perhaps with a sauce made by deglazing the pan, I often choose butter.

Kiku, with all respect, you are demonstrating your ignorance of New York. That is simply and obviously untrue. Check my last link. Edit: Blimey, you need to look at a map of London too. Three big green areas?

Could someone take a moment to explain to me why we are comparing one NYC park with eight London parks? I mean, with that approach, you'll find that sandwiches in London are bigger too.

New York City Parks Department manages 28,000 acres. All about the parks right here.

No Stefany, I meant Jeremiah Tower when he was in the kitchen at Chez Panisse.

New York simple has a much larger square mileage of such spaces than London. You might prefer London styles, as Macrosan does, but you can't overlook that New York has more big parks, and the big ones are much bigger. Not that it matters particularly.

I have just been out to buy Two Mallard Two red Legged Partridge 1lb of Wild Boar sausages 1lb of Venison in Red Wine sausages 1lb of thick cut Gloucester Old Spot bacon 1/2 of Boar blood sausage You have not, nor could you This was at a local butcher, not a specialty store and cost a mere £20 I know where I would rather be right now S Lucky bugger. But I may pick up some bison testicles tomorrow morning.

Gary Rhodes is still around. You would certainly go to London for ethnic cuisine of various kinds ahead of just about any other city on that continent, especially Chinese ad Indian foods. Game in season cannot be overlooked. Other than that, there are some very good restaurants there, but they are preparing a version of international haute cuisine which is not significantly different in kind than that which you'd find in New York.

For those who like the chef to choose their meal and cook for them, I can advise you that Citarella are pushing this option very strongly in their upstairs dining room. I haven't tried it, but it looks like you get to discuss your preferences with the chef who will then direct your meal. Sounds good.

Er, it may be something to do with the fact that Manhattan is located on a small, very valuable, island. GJ: thank you for explaining the basis for your conclusions. (I must think of something nice to say about London soon; I do love the place.) Macrosan: I don't disagree, and wasn't offering to define it. I was just reacting to the various posts which were comparing all London parks with only Central Park. You have to address the other New York parks, if only to reject them.

No comment on Brixton. I have yet to have the pleasure of visiting London (or any other part of the U.K.). But the South Bronx is mostly Hispanic (at least the parts I know), and Harlem is gentrifying. I know blacks, whites, and Japanese who live in Harlem. They tell me rents are becoming expensive there, too. I think you have to look outside of Manhattan for ghettos that are nearly fully black. Bed-Stuy and Brownsville, probably. Correct. And GJ needs to look outside central London at places like Stratford and Eastham if he wants to know where the ethnic "enclaves" have gone. Fine art: New York is leagues ahead of London. There are simply a larger number of private galleries showing a wider variety of work. Parks: I am not going to take the claims for London parks seriously unless the case for New York parks is made properly. Get out of Manhattan and look around. There are vast nature reserves out there, apart from parks which are much larger, and arguably much more beautiful than old Central Park.

Worthy of dear old Plotnicki. Congratulations on your open-mindedness.

I concur with the points already made, especially the introduction of service Russe. While a dinner today is likely to have fewer courses than even the simplified dinners proposed by Escoffier, the structure of an upscale meal in the French tradition is essentially the same. Reading an article about the creation of Chez Panisse a while back, I was intrigued to learn that - in the early days of the restaurant - Towers reached for Escoffier and tried to recreate Escoffier-style menus. The Francophile influence of Richard Olney on Chez Panisse is quite well known, but I'm struck to find Escoffier present in spirit at the birth of what is presented as a distinctly American dining tradition.

Interesting to note these different perceptions. Every time I go back to London, I am struck by how dirty, violent and unpleasant it increasingly seems. As far as the restaurants go, it would be interesting to do a more detailed comparison. Theater? GJ, do you go out at all? I agree with you if you're talking about Broadway, but again it would be intersting to compare the selection at off and off-off Broadway theaters with what's on outside the West End. Come to think of it, I believe I have recent Time Outs for both cities lying around somewhere. If I have a chance, I'll compare them.

I think Professor Johnson needs to do some research. The South Bronx is not a "black enclave". It just isn't. I have an apartment there (which is not, by the way, the reason it is not a black enclave). As for parks, may we look beyond Manhattan? I can think of nothing in London to compare with Pelham Bay, Van Cortlandt or Bronx Park in the Bronx, and Prospect Park is no slouch either. I suppose London parks have more ducks. Ah yes, London wins on pubs. And wine bars. But not on cocktail bars.