Wilfrid

If you say it three times, it will be true.

I just checked three dictionaries. One has it Ron's way, one has the complete reverse, and one says both mean pig. Glad to feel we're making progress here.

Maybe no-one else here reads Time Out New York? I was very deeply offended by this week's cover story on the availability of illegal foodstuffs in New York. Since they don't post current articles on the web-site, let me explain that this feature article purported to advise readers where to obtain a range of "forbidden" foodstuffs which, it claims, are being served illegally in New York. It begins with the obvious example of young unpasteurised cheeses, and with a quote from an obviously furious Steve Jenkins, who quite rightly questions the writer's motives. What was he expecting? A "confession" from Jenkins, or Jenkins to shop a few of his friends? The article goes on to present quotes from several chefs, apparently admitting that they break the law. One hopes one can trust that these quotes are not fabricated and were obtained from the chefs with the knowledge that they would be published. In which case, one wonders what on earth the chefs must have been thinking of. I'm reluctant to repeat the names here, but they are by no means low profile. And I wonder if mentioning Jenkins and Ariane Daguin in the article, who certainly make no such admissions, has the effect of smearing them by association? My fundamental objection is to the article's moral ambiguity. If TONY had set out to expose wrongdoing my New York food professionals and draw the attention of the authorities, the piece might make sense - although who needs it? But it is presented as a light-hearted insider's guide on where to obtain illegal foods. Nudge, wink. And it might do terrible damage. I am thinking of writing an angry letter to the editor. What does everyone think?

I stand corrected. Anyway, I think that establishes that she's a real cook. I guess it's just hard to look cool and polished when trying to answer the telephone at the same time.

I'm glad you asked. Steven?

Well, it's reassuring to know that truffles are fat free, anyway. Who said conspicuous consumption was dead? I wonder if caviar would be appropriate on a fish sandwich?

Cabby, you might have trouble calling your restaurant Huit. It's too similar to Huiters.

That would be an interesting way of spendingf a day in a library, but I am afraid the results would be inconclusive. I suggested earlier the short cut of reading this little book which surveys the question pretty well. Stepping gingerly around Ayn Rand, the major theories of art propounded since Plato are those of Kant and Hegel. You would also probably want to look at John Dewey. The most important living authority is Sir Richard Wollheim. That just scratches the surface. The problem is that each of these thinkers has a distinct view of what art is, and each of those views is widely criticized. As for the dictionary definition - well, it's just an uninformative tautology, since it doesn't tell us what an "aesthetic object" is. I can address Oraklet's frustration to some extent: I think the reason a clear definition of art eludes us is that it's a category entirely shaped by human thought, motives and projects, which are ever changing and shifting. Language is good at defining tangible objects, especially ones we didn't invent, like dogs or trees. We invented the category of art; it's up to us what it is; and people have different opinions. I think there are three steps to making progress with this question. First, recognize the huge and essential differences between the endeavours generally accepted as arts - music, painting, literature, etc. Second, try to identify the relatively few things they have in common. Third, see whether gastronomy or cooking shares any of those common traits. If I had a couple of hours to spare, I'd have a go. I don't think progress will be made either by reflecting on one's own aesthetic experiences, or by making comparisons between cooking and any other single art form.

Haha. You pass the hat, I'll tap dance.

Of course, diners and bars regularly come top of "best burger in NYC" polls. But an inference consistent with Jim's plausible premise is that the people who self-select to respond to such polls do most of their sampling in diners and bars. Polls for you.

Perhaps you could give the United States back to the people you took it from. (Damn, that's fourteen years.)

Self-knowledge is a blessing. Not that I am without flaw. A restaurant can name itself as it wishes, but I don't think it can arbitrarily legislate the pronunciation of the name, especially since, in this case the name is an actual, existing word. Why should they be able to? Fat Bloke, yes of course one shouldn't ascribe those motives to individuals, but I do wonder where it all started. Everywhere in the language I can think of, an 'o' before a double 't' is short. Whence this affectation to lengthen it because the word is (or derives from Italian?). You see, it's not being Anglicized/Americanized or pronounced correctly. I can live with the former as well as the latter. It's the horrible in-between thing that grates. It really does grate.

I agree it's polite to pronounce a person's name as they wish, but I don't think Nina would be pronouncing her name correctly in that case. I don't think her wishes could make that a correct pronunciation of "Nina". With the name of a restaurant, I think courtesy is much less important.

Yes, they are all attempts to Anglicize a foreign name in a way roughly in accordance with normal English pronunciation. In no case is there a pretension to sound sophisticated and foreign. As there is with "oh-toe" and "ree-oe-ha", and goddam "bree-oe- sh". Ron, it was Fat Bloke who said Mario and Joe had decided to pronounce the name of their restaurant wrong. And haven't you heard? Leg wrestling is all the rage. Miss J is going to enter a professional league.

Believe it or not, "valet" is pronounced differently by different classes in Britain. G.Johnson pulls rank on me by sounding the "t" at the end - I don't. I think the "t" in "duvet" is always pronounced silently, but I may exhibiting my common roots again. More and more Brits would now say "Qui-hoe-tay" than the old "Quick-shot", but oddly, Van "Goff" is still popular. "Beethoven" is pronounced close to the German, but with a more open first vowel sound. Rhymes with "bait", I guess. I find it hard to type the German pronunciation, but it's roughly between "bait" and "bet", right? And the "th". Separately, as if it was hyphenated. Beet-hoven.

If it served tapas, and was called "Calle Ocho", and the owners asked us to rhyme "Calle" with "alley", would we be as accommodating?

I think that's arbitrary, Fat Bloke. If someone opens a business and then asks us all to pronounce the name of the business incorrectly, I think we can lodge a gentle protest. I have a slightly different take on this. I wouldn't mind so much if pronunciation were Americanized/Anglicized in a way which accorded with the rules of those languages. Risotto, with a short first 'o' and a long second 'o', as if it were a word in English, doesn't grate on my ears nearly so much the draaaaaggged out vowels, which are deployed - I believe - in a misguided attempt at Italian pronunciation. Same way I don't have a big problem with a regular, English short first 'o' in "Rioja".

I did scan the menu for NY Jean-Georges sig dishes and couldn't see any. Looks like Vong, only fancied up. Confusing use of the brand name. And at current exchange rates, I believe the tasting menu is more expensive than NY Jean-Georges - in fact no, I see you can pay $120 for a tasting menu in NY. Sixty quid is close on $100 anyway.

The menu and, from memory, the prices seem a step up from Vong. Are we sure this in the Vong space, or could it be in the Tante Claire space (the web-site not having quite caught up with itself)?

No. And even youse guys don't do that for lots of French words. You just seem to like doing it to poor old Italian words.

I used to open them with my teeth. Not doing that any more. I have a good scar on my thumb from doing that once when I didn't realise the top of the bottle had splintered.

Thanks, BLH, that was useful and informative.

Thanks for that Cathy, although I was thinking of a report from a reliable eGulleter. I thought this was a pretty kind thread by our standards.

Careful, I already got banned today.

I think coughing would. Maybe with a helpful physician squeezing the area in question.