Wilfrid

I dunno. If it was real-time voting, without self-appointed experts fiddling with the results, we might get some quirky and opinionated lists.

Certain experts have been considering a bar crawl of lower Ninth Avenue. Sorry, it was the AA reference which set me off. Could get a hot dog in Rudy's.

Totally mystified. Union Pacific, Nobu and Tabla will be...I don't know...typical of how spices will be used in the future restaurants at moderately upscale restaurants? That's my best read. By the way, the fresh wasabi at Nobu will blow your head off.

Jean Georges is in the same segment. If you want an Indian meal, or an American meal with some Indian spices, or a French meal. Come on.

No, I've just taken my Plotnicki Intellectual Dietary Supplement, and feel confident of defending my absurd postion for at least ten pages. Or, okay already. I just like ADNY better than Daniel and J-G.

Does anyone else see excitement, merit and novelty in making the lists quite limited? So, for example, a quite well known restaurant may just not make the cut in its particular category. I was sort of hoping that eGullet lists might not simply reflect the received wisdom of Zagat, NYT, et al. For example if - and I only say if - Gramercy Tavern didn't make top five upscale American restaurants, we'd be saying something. The membership (to the extent they participate) would be making an interesting statement. Keeping this thread up here, I'm hoping some affiliates will chip in with a view as well. Ultimately, if we're going to have eGullet lists, the affiliates will have the final say on the structure and categories. So I don't want to do a bunch of drafting unless there's some interest.

Yeah, like, uh, very professional, Liza. (Aside: so that's what it is...)

Yeah, but that's you. (No, okay, fair enough...)

Perhaps. But ten? How about top five, he said repeatedly.

That was debated on the second page of this thread recently. The Ducasse web-site has been down for a week or so, so I have to go by memory. I believe it's $160 for four courses including dessert, but there's a possibility of two courses plus dessert at a slightly lower price (there are also stratospheric tasting menus). Edit: their telephone still works. Three course dinner is $150. For your $160, you get an appetizer, fish, meat, dessert, plus at least two amuses, petits fours, chocolates, a visit from the lollipop trolley and a cake to take home. Daniel is $85. For that you get an amuse, appetizer, entree and dessert, and I expect some petits fours and/or chocolates too. Comparing like with like, I don't think the difference is as outrageous as it appears. (OKay, maybe it is.)

Yes, and if you want to be ignored, I recommend Le Cirque over Daniel.

Only two months late, old bean.

Ah, I wasn't thinking of stars. I was thinking along the lines of multiple categories (as I think Fat Bloke was suggesting): Best Upscale Italian, Best Moderate Italian, Best Inexpensive Italian, Best Pizza, Best Dim Sum, Best fish and chips, Best takeaway sushi, and so on and on. Rather than a big raft of undifferentiated two star or 15/20 places like some guides.

I have had good meals and disappointing dishes at each of them. I agree Tommy - Daniel is a little more stuffy and old-fashioned. The other big difference is that Daniel is a huge dining room, and can feel more than somewhat impersonal. Jean-Georges is small, sleek, stylish. I like the feel of the place better. I can't pretend to choose between them based just on the merit of the cuisines. Anyone else? (My real advice is go to ADNY, and if cost's a factor, get drunk first . )

Reviving this thread, is anyone still enthusiastic about the idea? If we start with New York, I'm willing to give some thought to drafting the categories. As for how many restaurants to list in each, then - if we do divide it by borough - I strongly feel it should be fewer than ten. I mean, who needs to know what the ninth best place in Manhattan is for dim sum? They can't get into the first eight? But I'm not wedded to three either. Maybe top five? What do people think?

Sorry, I missed the question Pan. Yes, they have take-out menus - I don't know how far they will deliver - it's a small operation. I posted the phone number above.

As they each have the same number of stars, no rational decision is possible. Heads or tails.

I think the confusion has been identified. Plotz was asserting that Tabla and Diwan are in the same dining "segment", which they're not. It's a stretch to make meaningful comparisons between Tabla's cuisine and traditional Indian food. However, those of us who remember as far back as page one think Plotz might mean the Bread Bar at Tabla, which is somewhat different. If everyone would be careful to say which they mean, we may still be able to pull out of the rut.

Hee hee, helps if it's soft and sloppy too, right? clickety

It's unlikely that the small peloton of upscale French chefs of whom you approve are about to start using large quantities of capsicum in their dishes. But not for the reasons you give. Capsicum does not necessarily mask flavors. And indeed, there are some high end restaurants in the States where some highly spiced dishes are served - Norman's, the Mansion at Turtle Creek. I can't see any a priori reason why chefs interested in providing intense sensory experiences - a Liebrandt for instance - would avoid fiery spicing. I am floundering to understand what a Western "concept of balance" is. I understand what Jonathan is referring to when he talks about Chinese and Japanese cooking, but I can't apply the same idea to Western cooking. Perhaps all that is meant is "light spicing".

Yes you can, if you have experience of eating highly spiced food. Not necessarily it doesn't.

Thanks, that's what I tried to say on the last page. Asian spicing techniques have been used increasingly by Western chefs in Europe, the States, Canada and Australia over the last ten to fifteen years. The trend is precisely the opposite to that identified by El Plotnicki. Surely we don't have to debate that?

If people can't trouble to distinguish between Tabla and the Bread Bar at Tabla, this thread will continue to be incomprehensible.

Why do we so often start off from false premises? First off, we should be more precise when discussing spices. Peppercorns are spices. Mustard is a spice. Vanilla is a spice. So are saffron, caraway and poppy seeds, and mace, all traditionally used in European cookery. On this thread, I think "spice" is being used partly as a short-hand for the spices which we associate a little more with non-European traditions: cumin, coriander, etc; and partly as shorthand for heavy use of capsicum. But however you use the term, there can be not a shadow of a doubt that spices are used more in high end European restaurants - especially French - today than they were in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. And you don't need to have eaten in such restaurants for the last forty years to know that. You just need to have studied a little bit of culinary history. So can we not have a debate which launches off from a misapprehension please?