Wilfrid

Yeah, relax guys. I think we're trying, and perhaps failing, to find a polite way of asking whether Steve considers himself experienced in Indian cuisine (outside the States) as he clearly is in French and other cuisines, and in wine. All in favor of the question, politely put. Personally, I don't consider myself expert in Indian food, but I've eaten a lot of it over the years, in a number of countries (not India), and don't recognize these generalizations about chewy meat, gravy and unsubtle spicing.

Stone, I've seen reports like that before, and it strikes me as a stunt rather than a serious research study. Equivalent stunts have provoked art experts into praising daubs by a chimpanzee in terms of abstract art. I think it shows it's not difficult to cxreate a situation in which people make fools of themselves. I think you'd need a better designed study to support the conclusion that good and bad wines are actually indistinguishable, which - I think you'll agree - is more than somewhat counterintuitive.

A disquieting mental image, only just saved from sheer horror by the fig leaves.

The more gets posted here, the less I understand the discussion. Which of these are we discussing? 1. There are excellent upscale Indian restaurants in some countries, where the spicing achieves levels of complexity which enhances (rather than compensates for) the ingredients, where the meat is not cooked to chewy overdoneness, and where the professionalism of the operation exceeds that of an averagely good home kitchen. or 2. There aren't any such places which Steve has been too, or which are conveniently available to him. Because 1. is certainly true, and I don't much care whether Steve agrees with me or not. But 2. could be true also. And which of these are we discussing? 3. Assertive or complex or fiery spicing will not appeal to the Western palate. or 4. Such spicing is unlikely, in the foreseeable future, to play a role in the kind of cooking being conducted at the expensive, avant garde end of upscale in France. Because 3. is obviously false - and again, it doesn't much matter whether individuals here agree or not: Indian (or Bengali), Thai and Mexican food have vast followings in the west. However, I believe 4. is true, and if that's all Steve means, we can shut up shop. What I'll bow out of is a discussion which compares the cuisine at Arpege and Pierre Gagnaire with the cuisine on East 6th Street, Manhattan. Too silly even for me, thanks.

I once brought a lunch box to school containing chicken cooked in Grand Marnier. My own concoction -revolting in retrospect - and it didn't exactly enhance my reputation among the other lads.

Be sure to eat a low country boiled dinner - a shrimp, sausage, fresh corn, baked potato combo - which can be more interesting than it sounds, and is widely available. There's a touristy strip of bars and restaurants along the river-front, but you can get some bargains there in respect of food which requires limited kitchen skills - huge tubs of fresh oysters and shrimp, crab and so on. For informal dining with a southern slant and a reasonable choice of wines by the glass, Savannah Bistro. For a more upscale, formal experience, the Olde Pinke House. Essential thing to do in Savannah is tour the squares of the historic district and visit some of the stately homes which are open to the public. You can take a guided tour, or get a guide book and make it up as you go. Excellent walking city.

Well, I agree with what you've said about overcooked meat now. But there's no reason a good Indian or Chinese restaurant would overcook their meat; the best ones don't. It's certainly not intrinsic to the dishes. And my goodness, I've been served some tough old carcasses in French restaurants over the years.

Nailing the asbestos sheet to the ceiling is such a chore.

It's not that there isn't any sense in what you say Steve, just that there are so many little inaccuracies or big assumptions wrapped up in the package, and I think that's why people won't buy it. You "equate" refined cooking with restrained spicing: I've given several examples on this thread of upscale restaurants which serve highly spiced dishes. You talk about lamb in lamb curry being "overcooked" - which "curry" are we talking about? If it's a dish which requires long-slow braising of the lamb, then the condition the meat ends up in is not well-described as "overcooked"; yes, rare, pink rack of lamb suits many French menus, but it's illicit to universalize your preference for it. You talk about poor quality meat, but again you're comparing apples and oranges; you're comparing inexpensive ethnic restaurants with restaurants serving "high cuisine" - of course the ingredients are cheaper. For me, it all boils down to this question. Is it the case that, in principle, no national or regional cuisine other than that which originated in France can offer upscale dining experiences - complex ones if you will - of the highest quality? My tentative answer is that it depends on the range of techniques and palette of ingredients available within the cuisine in question. I think there's no doubt that Japanese and Chinese cuisines can meet this challenge. I see absolutely no reason why Indian, Thai, Malaysian, Indonesian, and innumerable other cuisines are debarred from the upper echelon of gastronomy. To be honest, I think some are debarred - and now I don't want to offend anyone - because the range of dishes and ingredients has historically been so limited. Is it really so hard to imagine, say, an Indian version of Nobu?

I was served bearnaise on the side at Plaza III in Kansas City recently. The steak was so good it really didn't need anything. I approve of slices of bone marrow as a topping; foie gras and black truffles, of course; and the various red wine sauces, with and without onions, shallots, mushrooms etc - but probably best reserved for one of the more modest cuts.

Have any of the New Yorkers on the thread tried the version served at the Malaysia restaurant off the Bowery? They serve the white chicken, and although it can be a little chewy, I think they get the flavors about right. I'm not suggesting it's up there with the best in Singapore, but it resembles versions I ate at hawkers' markets.

If I could just get a decent curry somewhere...

Tony, if you really want me to post the link to Freddie Garrity's web-site again...

Isn't that where Varmint's from? If this is the Scotto place, I believe Moira Hodgson liked it too (NY Observer).

I vote for forgetting about the measure thread, the Diwan thread and the spice thread and finding something else to argue about. My head hurts.

I did laugh, Steve. The point was well made. It's not as cut and dried as you make out, of course. I rarely travel with the exclusive aim of eating, and when I arrive my priority is usually to eat the best possible example of the local cuisine, French or not. In practice, that often involves something upscale and something from the street, in broad terms. The middle bracket is what to avoid. When I do travel mainly to eat, my destination isn't always France. Would I spend $200 on a non-French (and non-Japanese meal)? If the need arose, I can imagine doing so. I can imagine an Indian (real Indian) or Turkish or Chinese meal, certainly an Indonesian meal too (ever had an elaborate Rijstaffel?), being that good. I do find it hard to imagine that of some cuisines, I admit. The fact is that, for global economic reasons, you probably don't need to spend that kind of money to get a superb meal in poorer countries.

Has anyone said that the Bread Bar at Tabla does not serve Indian food?

I've said in the past here that a tasting menu at Emeril's was about the best meal I've had in the United States. I suspect Chris Wilson was responsible for it. Quite wonderful. Glad to read similar praise.

Flip. Not to mention flop. Plotnickiism states that members of the elite should have some expertise, not just wads of cash. Is Plotnicki deserting Plotnickiism. Edit. Cross-posting. But the market often disagrees with the experts.

Scary. My favorite, I mean.

You missed the point - a rare occurrence, I know . How do you tell when the market has made up its mind. Forget Ten years After (I had). At the end of the nineteenth century, Melville was on the scrap heap. Food: maybe ten years from now, nobody will be eating spicy food in upscale French restaurants. In thirty years' time, who knows? You are proposing a measure which simply has no utility. Come on - jump one way or the other. An elite of experts or the actual market in real time. I dares ya.

Last sentence. Tabla or the Bread Bar? Different, you see. Sigh.

A classic unverifiable proposition. If you don't like the market's opinion of Britney Spears today, that's because it's efficient over time. Ten years, a hundred years, who knows, but one day it'll get it right.

Not the Bread Bar, right? Sorry, wrong thread

You would also be saving money over my last suggestion. So, Tommy, get back from Tuscan yet or are you posting from your table?