
Wilfrid
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British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
I believe Peter Luger has game pie as a daily special on Tuesdays Seriously, Steve, I have to read you closely because you have a neat technique (whether conscious or not) of revising your claims to suit the evidence. You have said two quite distinct things about the improvement on British food. First, without qualification, that it started to improve in about 1995 (yes, a year or two either way, who cares?). Second, that it was in 1994/95 that the improvement became "noticeable to me" - your words. I have explained why these two claims are not the same. You haven't addressed the fact that just about everyone who posted in response to your argument - mainly Brits - set a date much, much earlier than the one you chose. I substantiated an earlier date - as far as London dining out was concerned - by providing a lengthy list of good enough restaurants and chefs, which were not only open, but very well known indeed, years before your proposed date. You responded by gesturing to Coast. Back to this thread: It does raise some interesting questions which I am still mulling over. I think everyone can agree that British "theme" restaurants are few and far between except in countries with a significant history of British immigration. I have also suggested that typical dishes cooked by leading British chefs are to be found on the menus of American restaurants - not because Britain "exported" those dishes, but because there is increasingly a lingua franca of quality restaurant food which belongs to no particular nation. Which leaves the question - do traditional British dishes show up anywhere, for example, in New York? I think they do, but because they're not "exclusively" British, they aren't noticed as being such. I have a handful of examples, but there are probably more: braised oxtail, bacon and beans (on the Gramercy Tavern bar menu), calves liver and bacon, boiled beef (especially when served with carrots and/or horseradish), fishcakes (made with cod or other white fish - crabcakes are not particularly British). These are all British staples, along with simply roast chicken, lamb and pork (whatever happened to roast beef?), the ubiquitous fish and chips, and even dishes like meatloaf. By which I mean, the appearance of any of these in a British home or on the menu of an explicitly British restaurant, would be entirely natural. Friend of a Farmer does a nice shepherd's pie, by the way, although I think there's some non-British tomato in the sauce. -
Thanks, Jeff. Salinas was indeed the restaurant I'd heard of, but had lost the name and address. I am holding onto it this time, and will make the expedition when the augurs seem propitious.
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British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
Knucklehead, am I? "I've been traveling to Britain since 1977 and the general quality of food their stank until about 1995 when it started turning around." (S. Plotnicki, Collected Works, Volume XXI) "I made a statement about the general level of quality [of British food] before 1995. In my opinion that is when there was a significant increase in quality across the board. And my opinion is based on the fact that I have owned a business in the U.K. since 1988." (S. Plotnicki, Speeches and Sermons, V.15) The expression "shooting fish in a barrel" springs to mind. -
This has opened up a kettle of fish. I think Liza has tried to mackerel attempt to get back to the subject. I think she's haddock up to here with all these puns. It's all very shad. BTW, Liza, why wasn't the pink goo just blood?
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British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
I thought so, although I wasn't absolutely sure about Michael Lewis. Who is? Anyway, "preposterous historical reductionism" really rolls off the tongue. Try it. I am going to attempt to introduce into conversation as often as possible today. Actually, it's best in a plummy British voice. -
British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
Lest there be a very profound misunderstanding, can I just say that I agree with every word I have just quoted from Steven Shaw (with only the reservation that there may be a few specific culinary things the British do better than French). Without combing back over millions of words to quote my earlier posts, I believe I have said a few times that I think French food is obviously much better than British. At home, I cook twenty French or French-derived dishes to every English one. I love French food. The slugfest with Mr P. has had three focusses from my point of view: 1. The preposterous historical reductionism by which he attempts to explain French superiority. 2. The dogmatic assertion that all British culinary endeavour (except I think some of our cheese) goes in the shit drawer, together with the assertion that absolutely everyone outside Britain takes the same view. 3. His opinion that British food started improving around 1994/1995, which I believe he has withdrawn (although quietly so as you wouldn't notice). -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
Adam: in the field or as servants? I thought I read 85% "in service". My math was, I think, wrong, but my point was that from the remaining 15% you had to extract all those working in industry, in retail, or in any other profession (and, I thought, in agriculture too), who didn't employ servants. You would then have the remaining sub-set of the 15% employing 85% of the population, which I still think would mean hundreds of servants per household. So don't believe it. If anyone thought I was having a sense of humour failure on these topics, not at all. I hoot with laughter at most of Steve's posts. I do think the "your food is crap/shit" tone is not Steve at his best, but I am not chewing the furniture. -
British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
This has turned out to be a very interesting thread, because it raises questions about how and why 'cuisines' travel beyond the lugubrious observations about British cuisine in which it originated. Steven Shaw made the point which, while obvious, eluded me yesterday until about five minutes after I logged off: immigration. If the British had emigrated to the States in the numbers which other ethnic groups have - Italians, European Jews, Mexicans - there would be a barrowload of British restaurants here. Take Ireland as an example: you can scarcely walk two blocks in Manhattan without being offered a version of Irish cuisine - which, lets be honest, does not always scintillate.* The British - the English and Welsh in particular - haven't emigrated anywhere in mass numbers. Australia and Canada are the obvious exceptions. I think Australia is a special case, rather than an experimental demonstration, because the original waves of immigrants came very specifically from impoverished sectors of British society. What they took with them was not, in my opinion, the best of British food, but it survived nonetheless. Mr Balic and I indulged in a learned discussion of the specific type of meat pie which ended up in Australia elsewhere on the Board. Canada? Take a look around British Columbia, and you will find food from the old country prominently on offer. I will take Steve KLC's point that French home cooking has travelled in a way that British hasn't. My point was poorly thought out (see, it's not difficult). I don't believe the fact that modern British chefs incorporate French or Italian ingredients and techniques make them non-British (if that's what was being argued). Look around the gallery of modern American chefs, from Charlie Trotter to Emeril Lugasse to David Bouley. Not exactly cooking purist American food, are they? Modern British cuisine just is that global, inclusive kind of cuisine which one finds in many different countries now. Steve Plotnicki: you have some strange medical condition which causes fish and chip blindness . Manhattan is thronging with fish and chip shops - usually Asian-run in my observation (vague, I know - sorry). I can direct you to some if you would like. But thanks for the Liebling info - I haven't perused that collection, and it should definitely be on my to-do list. *I am not saying all Irish cuisine is bad. -
Great tip, Steve. We did spend a day last summer, first walking around Brighton Beach - where I ate some leaden but doubtless authentic Russian street food - then strolling down (or arguably up) the boardwalk to Coney Island. We'll do it again this year, and take in at least Mrs Stahl's. I had not had a knish I found enjoyable before Yonah Schimmel's, so it's nice to know there's also a step up from there.
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If Horlicks and Ovaltine are not readily available in supermarkets or specialty stores in NYC, try Chinatown (Canal or Flushing). I'll be amazed if you can't get them from Myers of Keswick in Greenwich Village.
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A good question, and I was surprised the season had started already. I will try to ask my supplier (Gramercy Fish) if I get a chance.
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British Restaurants Outside of Britain
Wilfrid replied to a topic in United Kingdom & Ireland: Dining
Let's try to separate two distinct questions. Where are the chefs cooking the same kinds of food which one finds being prepared in top British restaurants? All over the place. I know there was another thread about whther or not it's a good thing, but there is a globalization taking place when it comes to modern "Western" cuisine (I don't know if "Western" is right, because I want to include Australia, but it'll do). You can eat very similar menus in good restaurants in London, Toronto, Sydney, and New York. This goes to the improved standard of British professional cooking. A completely separate question is: where do you find restaurants outside of Britain serving steak and kidney pie, haggis, smoked haddock, and so on? Same place you find restaurants serving andouillettes, andouille du pays, tete de veau, bifteck de cheval, friandes, salade de museau, bouches a la reine - have I got that one right? - and all the other delicious stuff which one finds stacked to the rafters in the food shops of France. A lot of stuff doesn't seem to travel, and I don't know why. Not because it's "shit" apparently. Now, some of the foods we are talking about, French and English, are not really restaurant dishes. Pork pies and friandes are typical, and potentially enjoyable snack foods; others, I suspect, are more likely to be found cooked in the home, or in very homely restaurants, than in cutting edge places. So as far as asking where the restaurants are serving these kinds of dishes goes - it's misconceived, and it could be asked as well of France as of Britain. Incidentally, I don't know Liebling's piece on speakeasies. Do you happen to know where that's collected? I'd love to read it. -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
I just lost a post somewhere, so here's a brief version: There's no point giving you a recipe for game pie, Steve, or for any other British dishes, is there? Your mind's made up, and that's it. I wish you would sometimes withdraw remarks that are obviously, wildly mistaken, such as the claim that the French and Americans have refused to work as servants. There has to be a bit of a gesture in the direction of intellectual honesty, surely. Oh, yeah, and what Andy said. Me too. Steve, you have to admit that you have given not just British food, but the British people in general a pretty hard time over the last few days. I think we've been pretty nice about it, and I for one have been quite amused by your take on British history. But I don't find the idea of offering you British cuisine ingredient by ingredient so you can tell me it's shit all that appealing. Thanks very much. -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
You're going to tell us next you don't like haggis. Is it your contention they don't make game pies in France, just like they don't serve fish and chips? Anyway, good luck with the new thread (and I am reaching for my copy of Elisabeth Luard's European Peasant Cookery already - but if you can give us a clue which century you're in, that's always a help. -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
Yeah, what Andy said. Plus: I know a lot of people believe the myth you are espousing about British food. I have to assume you have never eaten, for example, a good British-made game pie. Fair enough. Why you won't believe there are such things, I don't know. Starts to look like blind prejudice. I hadn't eaten a good knish before yesterday, but that didn't mean there weren't any. If you think there were no servants in France or America, following their respective revolutions, you are so bizarrely wrong that I hardly know what to say. I shouldn't need to research this stuff for you. Just pick up some French and English novels about upper class life in the first half of the twentieth century - a few detective stories should suffice - and meet some French and American butlers, cooks and housemaids. (Let me note that I didn't sign up to A. Balic's 85% of population in service claim. Balic is generally right about everything, of course, but it seems on the face of it implausible. If my math is right, it gives each member of the top 15% some sixty servants. A husband and wife would have, on average, one hundred and twenty servants between them.) Finally, your grasp of the history of universal suffrage in Britain is about as sound as your grasp of British history in general. Those in service - 85% or whatever - did not all have a vote long before the twentieth century. The campaign for fair wages began in industry, as one might expect if one thought about it, with the development of the power of trades unions from the late nineteenth century onward. Domestic servants would have faced many difficulties in organising unions, like for example immediate homelessness. Oh, but, how did they stand for it? :wow: :wow: :wow: P.S. Just catching up with you, Steve. I have eaten fried, battered or breadcrumbed fish, time and again in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. Fritto misto, bunuelos de bacalao, goujons de morue, excellent fried fish at the little restaurants overlooking the lakes in Hamburg. I could go on (in fact, I can't, I should be doing something else...). In case there's any doubt, they also serve chips in those countries. -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
I think, Steve, the claim was not that classes didn't exist before the nineteenth century, but that class consciousness didn't. I am not taking sides on whether the claim is true, but I can see the difference. "We" the Brits, and the Aussies, and everyone else are not gong to get our stories "straight', because we are posting independent views. But I think you were kidding. Why did people stand for working as servants? I just cannot fathom that sort of question. Why do people stand for working in factories? Why do they stand for low wages? I just haven't got the kind of voluntarist concept of social relations which would allow me to address those questions. Sorry. -
Makes me even for the weekend. Lousy corned beef, great knishes.
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Adam, I am ashamed to say I never knew what milk stout was. Thanks for that. A popular brand was called Cream Label, just to reinforce the message. Too sweet for me; I preferred Mackeson. (No, I wasn't nursing at the time, thanks for asking.)
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Very useful, Steven, and the anecdote is helpful too. I will try it again.
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i would rather my tuna had died before i et it. (Why should tommy have all the fun?)
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British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
Just adding to what Adam said, the original point I made (when I assumed we were discussing recent British gastronomy) was that the government commandeered the essential parts of the food industry in the early part of the war, centralizing production to avoid famine. As an example, all milk production was commandeered, shutting down the manufacture of artisanal dairy products overnight. It took many, many years for the industry to recover from these emergency measures. None of this applies to France, or Italy, and still less to the States. -
British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation
Wilfrid replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
Let me remind you, Steve, of your words: "The reasons that the British ate spam and marmite and the French didn't is that the French upper classes agreed to feed the lower classes in France far better than the upper classes in Britain agreed to feed their lower classes. It is really that simple." We have explored two centuries of British history, from enclosure (planned); the industrial revolution (not planned); a series of major European and world wars; famine; mass migrations of population; and so on and on. Did the events of the last two centuries have an impact on British social and economic life, including eating habits. Er, yes. Is the process well-described by your statement? Let the world judge. By the way - which century was the big French plot? Just so I can get a grip on it, and consider whether it is a plausible explanation of France's limited industrialisation in comparison to Britain's. Beer and food. I didn't think Tony's comment about beer being considered food needed clarification, but apparently it did, and I provided that on the other thread. And now his list of "awful" food. I think this must be what you meant: 1. English pies and savoury puddings-steak and kidney,beef and oyster,game and rabbit pies,pork pies 2. English cheeses 3. Fish and chips Well, I am scanning that list for anything which can be described as "awful". It would be patronizing to tell you that there are some awful versions of some of those dishes to be had. But let me take what you have said at face value. I think you conceded elsewhere that there are a few decent British cheeses, so I suppose you don't mean that. You must mean that English (or British) savory pies and puddings, and fish and chips, are - as a general proposition awful. Now, I infer from your posts that you know good food when you eat it. I can only conclude that you have eaten lousy pies and fish and chips. Sorry. I suppose an alternative take on your meaning would be that the pies, puddings and fish and chips are awful because they're not French, or cooked using French techniques. But then you would truly be in the grip of an obsessive dogmatism! -
The important thing is to notice when you have done something dumb, and then to confess shamelessly. Should I infer that 52% gelatinization is the target for a reasonably tender result? And what about size (if I may)? My brisket was three and a half pounds, so it got an hour (using the totally inappropriate Poumiane time scale), and then a bit more as it obviously wasn't ready. So ninety minutes doesn't make a lot of difference if the rump roast is of comparable size to my brisket. What about minutes per pound? And should it be at a very gentle simmer rather than a lively one? Grateful for your help, of course.
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My search engine reveals no discussion of this weighty topic on the New York board. I raise it because, after years of walking by the Yonah Schimmel knishery on Houston (founded 1910), and promising myself to go in, I finally did on Sunday afternoon. A couple of special knishes were sampled - cheddar and potato, and pepper and onion. We found them palatable, with the cheedar and potato getting the decisive vote. They were also quite light and fluffy by what I think are knish standards. I have occasionally eaten knishes in the past from unpromising sources, and found them bland and leaden. I have no historic experience with these delicacies - if they were available in Jewish eateries where I grew up, I don't remember them (I remember the beigels, lox, latkes, etc, but no knishes). So: was Yonah Schimmel the place to go? Or am I missing much better knishes elsewhere?
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I've never heard that either. Are you getting it confused with Paddy? That's the standard abbreviation for Irish Patricks.