abooja

This is why eGullet is such a fabulous place. Where else could I get insider information about the baking business from so many helpful professionals? While much of what I have read is even more disheartening than I suspected it would be, you have provided invaluable information that will help me make some tough decisions. Thank you so much. While I definitely still need a job, I'm now not so convinced that it needs to be in a bakery. There are many ways to skin a cat. I most definitely have no desire to be a pastry chef. My pre-thread fantasy never had anyone ever calling me that, nor did it involve large kitchens of the hotel and restaurant variety. I envisioned a small, local M&P (to use the lingo) where I'd be the grunt for a little while, perhaps work the counter, and eventually get to dabble in actual baking. I'm now fairly certain that, while this is a plausible scenario, I would have to accept it as a end unto itself, not necessarily a means to anything greater. I'm still not completely certain, but I don't think this, in and of itself, would satisfy me, monetarily or otherwise. Interestingly, two of the last few posters have presented two glaringly opposite experiences. One gal went to pastry school, worked her butt off for years in professional kitchens and has the scars to prove it. The other gal did not go to pastry school (at least, not long-term), worked her butt off in her own home and rented kitchens, got some notoriety on the farmer's market circuit, and now owns her own business. One proclaims to be burned out. The other appears to be quite happy. Please forgive the armchair analysis, but if I had to choose Door A or Door B, it wouldn't take even a millisecond of thought. I know things aren't as simple as all that. One has to be extremely talented, connected (not in the mafioso sense, though I suspect that would help!), fortuitous, hard working, outgoing, etc, etc for it all to come together, and in all likelihood, I still might not even own a profitable business at the end of the day. But if I adjusted my goals and were willing to accept just supplemental income from baking, that might be doable. If I kept at it and got really lucky, or fell into some money, it could become more than that one day. I could live with that. But I have to start somewhere, and this is the troubling aspect, as I see it. Until now, I saw things as very black and white. Either I got another dreaded procurement job, sitting in a cubicle, or I worked my way up the ladder, for a pittance, as a baker. I could never see myself putting in my 9-5 during the week, then walking my cakes door to door on the weekends, hoping someone would buy them. It was always just the one job or the other. It was a horrible decision to have to make. When my husband wondered whether or not setting up a kiosk in the mall (in lieu of or in addition to) a farmer's market presence would be possible, I bemoaned the fact that starting such a business would be extremely difficult, at best, while also theoretically beginning a new 9-5 job. (These days, they're actually 8-5.) I have no idea if the kiosk idea is even viable, but the point is, I'm now thinking that a more local job with somewhat more flexible hours, and one which does not require a grand new wardrobe, is more conducive to my starting a side business. Working the bakery counter at Wegman's, were I lucky enough to even get that close to the fun end of the store, could be my main income, and might give me the flexibility to do more baking. The job itself no longer has to involve baking or be a means to a baking job, but simply provide an income of some sort while I pursue other things. What do you think? Am I being unrealistic?

Thanks for the clarification. And the quote. Very true. One day, I will stop theorizing and just do!

Is this actually true? Are there fewer and fewer bakeries in my part of the country because of the economy, or because demand for premium products has diminished, or both?

I do take photos of much of what I bake. At least, I used to. And I have read where others have gotten that first job based, in part, on such photos. If I didn't think I would be laughed right out of the bakery, I would totally bring them. Ditto to bringing in something I've made. Friends and family used to advise me to do that, but I always blew them off. Of course, their expectations of what that tactic would gain for me were a lot less realistic than an entry-level job in a bakery. I might be wrong, but I think that my passion for baking is far more pronounced than your average soccer mom who loves to bake brownies and cookies. I am completely consumed by it. I own and read lots of cookbooks on the subject (though, likely not as many as some eGulleters). I discuss things like oven spring and hydration levels with my husband, who smiles as his eyes glaze over at the dinner table. I also have a great deal of energy where cooking and baking are concerned. I can otherwise be exhausted (as I get frequently, thanks to Hashimoto's thyroiditis), but can still spend 24+ hours on my feet in the kitchen, baking nearly a thousand Christmas cookies, as I did a month back. Sure, it's yet to be proven that I can cut it in a professional kitchen, but I like the odds. I'm beginning to lean this way, as opposed to focusing solely on breads. Hell, I think I would enjoy baking just about anything, and would certainly learn something wherever I went. I was just thinking long term about a specialty, if I were forced to choose one. 99% of the bakeries in my area seem to focus on cakes. I figured, they had it covered. More realistically, however, I should have considered that few businesses around here will hire me to bake bread if their focus is cake. If I managed to land a job at one of the handful of places that specialize in bread, I would be limiting myself, would I not? If only we went out to restaurants or even frequented bakeries. I know enough, however, not to go in cold, having never visited a particular business before applying for a job, so I've begun that process. I think I'm very creative (albeit, without the desire to decorate cakes) and would like to own my own business someday. I love the idea of the entire creative process -- not just planning and executing the menu, but determining the layout of the operation, painting, decorating, naming the place, determining my target clientele, locating the business thusly, and getting my very brilliant business-oriented husband to work the financial end. He comes from a line of entrepreneurs (his parents owned a thriving jewelry business, his uncle, a bakery and an ice cream shop) and has always wanted to follow in their footsteps. But we both know this is for another time. I'm just trying to get a foot in the door. I meant that as the most I could ever expect in this profession, other than as an owner. I am most assuredly not in this for the money.

Like many of you, I have been baking (and cooking) since I was a young child and always excelled at it. In recent years, I have stepped up the frequency of my baking to where nary a week goes by that I am not baking some sort of bread or dessert, primarily for me and my husband. I give away lots and lots of stuff -- to his colleagues, to family, neighbors, etc, but I understand that this experience is nothing like what goes on in a professional kitchen. I do not expect to walk into an established business and simply get hired, much less take over. I am willing to start at the very bottom. I am not the sort of person who has ever BS'd her way through life, as so many others I know can and do. Even baking, about which I know considerably more than, say, forensic accounting, I would never claim to know squat about compared to the average bakery employee. I do think I would learn quickly, however. I completely agree. Over the course of the many years I have considered this, I wondered how I might ever get a foot in the door without at least having some culinary education under my belt. I had all but dismissed the idea, until I read (quite recently) about this apprenticing concept. Having breezed through a book on the bakery business a while back, I wondered about the insurance problem as well. And the whole asking for free training while providing no guarantees that you'll work out thing. That's one of the many reasons why I started this thread. The answers to these questions were never especially clear. Even if the majority opinion said that this was an appropriate way to phrase the question, I just could not physically see myself saying that to anyone. I imagine my approach would be more like the inexperienced kid looking for part time work than anything else. Believe it or not, I am very realistic in my expectations. As of last week, I thought I'd be lucky to even get that job at Wegman's, especially considering their recently publicized Fortune rating as #5 best employer in the U.S. I think I may have to start out at a lesser supermarket, or in a less desirable role in Wegman's before I can get anywhere near their bakery. I am happy to do that, especially the latter option, if I thought it would work. I don't think I want to take a cashier's job as a launching pad to my baking career, but if someone with more supermarket experience tells me this is a common or potentially useful career path, I would consider it. I, of course, agree that this is an important skill, and that beautifully decorated cakes can taste divine, but I don't know that I can ever compete on that level. While I do have artistic ability outside of the kitchen (I sketch and have studied art in the past), I have never been drawn to cake decorating. I've always been more concerned with the way a thing tastes. By the time I've cooked a meal, and the accompanying dessert(s), it's all I can do to get the food on the table without troubling myself terribly much with presentation. Once again, knowing little about the business side of baking prior to this discussion, I just assumed these tasks were divvied up among the baking staff, depending, of course, on the size of the operation. Given my current skill set, I figured I would leave that stuff to the folks who do it best and have a genuine interest in decorating. If that's not the case, then I will most certainly practice. I still don't think I'll be great at it, as I'd rather bake than decorate. (Note: this is not me being negative, just realistic.) I do, and I will continue to do so. When this most recent, and strongest, pang to break into the business hit me a few weeks ago, I thought I would do just that -- step up the pace of what most people I know already consider an inordinate amount of baking. But my husband is diabetic (horrible irony) and his blood sugar numbers have been terrible lately, so I felt guilty about doing that. Last week, I baked three kinds of bread. Two of them went half-eaten, and the other (some naan) were frozen. I have lots and lots of baked goods in our freezer with little room for more. I suppose I should just give it all away, and I will. I have to, or I will kill us both!

I sincerely apologize for reacting negatively to some of your very helpful ideas yesterday. As it happened, my husband had just told me about some unpleasant conversation he had with his newish boss. That, coupled with learning of the harsh realities of the modern baking business, had me wondering if I should be less self-indulgent about fulfilling my dreams at this time and work harder at getting a 9-5 job to help alleviate some of the financial burden. I'm still not certain that this will ever work out for me, but I'm not giving up on the concept just yet. However, if some corporate job finally does roll around, I will likely take it and try to pursue this on the sidelines. As much as I hate it, I must be practical. Thank you for you good wishes.

This was exactly my concern with the concept of an ebusiness. If I were Zabar's or another established retail outlet, it would be less of a concern. As a complete unknown in this industry, however, I think people would be loathe to purchase perishables from me without having at least met me first or seen my product in person. That is just my assumption. I'm sure there are folks who do this successfully, but it would likely not be the road I would be inclined to take. This is very interesting. I had always assumed that, because I am interested in artisan breads and have read so many lively discussions about the subject on eGullet, that consumers were equally interested. This would explain why supermarket bread is sufficient for most people. While I certainly still want to learn to make them in a professional environment, I can understand that focusing solely on artisan breads in some sort of future business might be more fraught with obstacles than if I diversified.

This is all really great feedback! Thanks so much, everyone, for taking the time. I may do a wonderful job of seeming as if I'm not listening, but I most certainly am. I will respond one at a time as it's easier that way. Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the M & P? I tried googling it, but got nowhere. Edited for grammatical oversight.

Isabelle, thank you for that suggestion. I read the article and checked out etsy.com, but find it very hard to believe that anyone would buy baked goods online. It's a route I had considered long ago, and dismissed. I do like the idea of selling at farmer's markets, but it's certainly not the season for that around here. Unless there are some farmer's markets open year-round that I've yet to discover. Lisa, thanks for taking the time to give me such a detailed response. I do have more questions, if you have the time. For instance, do you still work as a baker, in a bakery? At what age did you begin this endeavor and for how long have you worked at it? I expected the day-to-day life to be tough, but I figured the road would be somewhat easier for someone with a formal education in the pastry arts. I must say, I am not encouraged. I saw a sign for a part-time cake decorator on the door of an established bakery in Philadelphia the other day. I know that I cannot do that, at least not now. My decorating skills suck or are, at best, marginal. It seems, as with most things in modern life, folks favor style over substance. Lots of baked goods look pretty, but taste just "eh". I suspect, if I had mad decorating skills, or an interest in obtaining some, I would have a better chance at landing a job. I have some DVDs on cake decorating that I bought a year or so ago, but rarely look at as it's not where my interests really lie. If I thought that it would get my foot in the door or otherwise give me some advantage, I would consider practicing. I checked out bbga.org earlier today, based on a suggestion from another website, and considered sending them the $80 for membership. After starting this thread, however, I wonder if my money wouldn't be better spent elsewhere. I mean, I want desperately to be able to say I have finally accomplished something I've always wanted to do, but I fear that ship may have already sailed. I hope I am wrong.

This is a very real concern of mine. In good economic times, a paid employee must hate to see some new, enthusiastic twit volunteer her time to learn the business. Lots of people seem to give this advice to baking nobodies, however, and I couldn't help but wonder if it wasn't a bit more complicated than that. I'm torn because, as much as I want to bake, I don't want to take away someone else's income to do it. I certainly don't want someone to undermine me, the noob, because he's worried about losing his job. This seems inescapable, however. This is a really horrible time for the food service industry, as it is for so many industries. I just assumed that a lower paying job than the one I last held, one presumably without benefits, would be easier to attain these days. I imagined putting in my time to learn the business while no one else was hiring me anyway. This fantasy had me waiting a few years for the economy, and our personal finances, to pick up while I gathered all this scary experience, so that owning my own business sometime in the future would seem that much more attainable. Perhaps I am just fooling myself and the industry will dry up before that ever happens. It seems to be happening already. Can you tell that I'm easily discouraged?

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. Please keep 'em coming. Working backwards, while I am 39, I am in pretty decent shape and am quite strong. I own a Bowflex that I intend to start using again for the first time in many months. Regularly, now that you mention the fitness aspect. Thanks for that information. I would not have thought about that, though I did envision lifting large bags of flour. BTW, if I go into a small, local bakery and ask for a staging job, will they even know what I'm talking about? Here are some additional questions, specifically to Lisa and others who have worked or currently work in a bakery: after x number of months (years?) being the grunt, did you eventually move up the food chain and, if so, to what? Did you get better jobs within the bakery or move on to other bakeries for more money? Other than owning your own business, what level of achievement is considered most desirable in a bakery? Or am I thinking too much about this and there is no career path, just the job?

I'll try to give the abridged version of my story because you've undoubtedly heard it before. I want to become a professional baker. I've baked all my life...yada, yada, yada...and now I want to finally try making some sort of career of it. I understand it's hard work that involves long, early hours, heavy lifting and little glamour, but I still want to give it a shot. I have been unemployed since December 2007. I spent ten years in two major corporations working various low-level procurement/application support jobs. No one's knocking down my door to hire me, especially in this economic climate and now that I no longer live in the NYC metro area. After the last rejection email a couple of weeks back, I decided that maybe it was a sign, and an opportunity to pursue something I really care about. Although we are in some debt and he pays massive alimony (and will for the next six years), my husband makes decent money and says we can afford it. Any money I eventually make will be better than nothing. He just wants me to be happy. We can't, however, afford cooking school. From what I've read, here and elsewhere, it's not necessary, especially to wind up making just $10-$20/hour. My intention is to either volunteer my time somewhere to learn the ropes, with the hope that I will eventually be hired, or try to get hired doing some ancillary work in a bakery, with the intention of someday moving to the back of the store. So, I've been doing my research. We just moved to suburban Philly a few months ago. As I've always done all our baking, we had little familiarity with local bakeries, especially around here. There didn't seem to be any. Sadly, most folks in the suburbs seem content to buy their baked goods in supermarkets. I wasn't going to be a snob about it, however, and figured some experience is better than none at all, but supermarket bakeries, even Wegman's, all seem to buy premade mixes and doughs elsewhere, and just bake them off in their ovens. A lot of stuff appears to be delivered in its final form. I can't imagine I'd learn much working there, although I'd be pleased to learn otherwise. I then Googled bakeries within a 30-mile radius of my home. The Chestnut Hill area of western Philly seems to have a bunch, so we went there on Saturday to check them out. Of the four we visited that day, only two appear to do any actual baking on premises, but even they seemed to rely on deliveries of some prebaked items from a local manufacturer. In one of the bakeries, I could see some baking being done -- three guys in the back were arranging baguettes in a couche -- but I have no idea what else goes on back there. It was a bit disconcerting, because I heard a lot of good things about this place and figured it would be my primary target. There are several more places I want to check out before begging for a job. I want to at least have some knowledge of the place before I do so. I don't have to be in love with their products, although that would be great, but I do have to know whether or not they actually produce them in-store. This seems to be less and less the case. Some questions, if you've read this far: 1) Is this really the way to go about getting a job, given my lack of professional experience and training? 2) Will I gain anything, besides a small income, by working in a supermarket bakery, even a Wegman's? 3) If I'm primarily interested in breads, but enjoy all types of baking, should I try working in a place whose focus is bread, or does it matter? 4) Do I ask to become a baker's apprentice for no pay, shoot higher and only settle for a non-paying job if I have to, or take any kind of job I can get and hope they'll eventually let me pitch in with the baking? 5) If I do manage to become an unpaid apprentice, approximately how long should I expect to work for free before I know I'm being taken advantage of? 6) Will those three guys in the back of the bread bakery try to kill me if I volunteer to work there for free, potentially displacing one of them? 7) Assuming I'm not hired by the shop in which I volunteer my time, will other bakeries consider this free work valuable experience and be more inclined to hire me for pay? 8) Is a bakery the only game in town or are there other opportunities I am ignoring, such as restaurants? 9) Related to question #8, do bakers basically bake in bakeries for their entire careers, or is there some higher baking goal to be met? 10) One day, long into the future, will lending institutions be more inclined to help finance my own bakery with a few years of professional experience under my belt, or am I just kidding myself? Any help/advice you can give would be great, and much appreciated.

Might be perfect for a loaf 3 times the size of the one I'm baking - I have a 7.5 qt. oval Staub and the thing is HUGE. There's no reason you need to fill the entirety of the oven with dough. It just gives you the space to create a bread of a certain length.

Admittedly, I have lots of free time on my hands since I've been out of work the past year, but I used to do most of my baking on weekends. Perhaps you can retard the dough before and after shaping, sort of a take on the Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day concept. Always have a batch of dough waiting to be shaped, shape it the night before, and bake when you get home from work. I bet that would make some pretty tasty bread.

My breads are right in that same hydration range. However, I generally don't retard the dough after shaping, but during bulk fermentation. (Bagels and challah are exceptions, but they're much dryer than most breads and not relevant to this discussion.) Perhaps I should consider it.

The parchment idea comes from Cook's Illustrated's version of no-knead bread, which sought a method of lowering the dough into the vessel without deflating it. It allows for a much higher hydration dough, such as the original no-knead bread, which is so wet it basically needs to be dumped into the Dutch oven. This is clearly less of a problem if you are easily able to manipulate the proofed dough. I suppose a wetter dough could also be inverted if baked straight from the fridge.

Yup.

Nope, not at all. I dust the bottom of the dough with some flour, not an excessive amount, then ease it into the parchment lined basket. The parchment doesn't so much line the basket as it does hover above it, approximately centered. It then more or less conforms to the shape of the basket once the dough is placed inside. After the first 18 minutes or so of baking inside a Dutch oven, I remove it, and the dough, and continue baking directly on the stone, sans paper. Works every time. You won't get any pretty designs on the bottom, but it allows you to use pretty much anything as a proofing container.

I'd just use any kind of oval basket of the right dimensions and line it with parchment. I do the same for boules.

I'd imagine my 7-1/2 quart oval Dutch oven would be perfect for this shape. I'll give that a try one day.

I, too, have been enamored of the boule for the same reason. I didn't think it possible to get that same oven spring and crust by simply baking on a stone. Then, last week, I tried my hand at Reinhart's French bread recipe, the first French bread I've made since I was a kid (I'm now in my late 30s), and it was a great success. The baguette, while far from having been mastered, is apparently doable in a home oven. I managed to bake three baking stone length baguettes of more or less the same size at once. They were crisp on the outside, soft on the inside (not wet soft, more towards fluffy) and completely edible. They would have gotten better color had I not accidentally turned off the oven for seven minutes when I thought I was shutting off the timer. (Damn new-to-me oven.) The best part was that this loaf seems to freeze well. Reheating a chunk in the oven a few days later had much the same texture as on the day it was baked. That said, I still wish they sold oblong, cast iron Dutch ovens with room for more than one loaf at a time. The Baparoma steam baking pan just doesn't do it for me. It forces you to bake one loaf at a time, of restricted length. I also like putting the dough in a hot, preferably cast iron container rather than a cold, aluminum one set into a cold oven. Seems antithetical to sound bread baking theory. Until I get a steam injection system of some variety, or a brick oven, I will continue to bake baguettes using the old pan of boiling water/spritzing oven walls trick.

I recently picked up a large can of Cento extra virgin at a decent price that has turned out to be quite good. As always, I cook with it as well as dress salads with it. It has a lovely scent and a slight green hue. I find myself avoiding the smaller, more expensive bottles of EVOO purchased for me by my mother and friends in favor of the everyday stuff. One of those bottles, from a pasta store in Brooklyn, cost my mother the same price for one third the amount of oil in this Cento can. I wonder how long that bottle will last unopened?

Your local supermarket should carry bread of this variety.

Tonight, I made a creamy carrot soup of my own design from the Create Your Own Recipe software on FineCooking.com. It contained leeks, ginger, chicken broth, sherry, cumin and cider vinegar. When that wasn't enough, I dumped in more cumin and a bit of cinnamon. When that and a bit more salt didn't do the trick, I added a lot more cider vinegar. That made it edible. I topped it with chopped, toasted, salted and buttered pecans. Lardons, if I had them, would have made much more sense, but I was staying true to my stupid little recipe. I didn't even get through half a bowl, but DH, the carrot nut, actually liked this soup. Good. He's eating it for lunch tomorrow.

In the past month, I've made matzoh ball soup, beefy vegetable soup -- termed "peasant soup" by DH, Moroccan chickpea (and lentil) soup twice, French onion soup and tortilla soup. On deck is my grandmother's recipe for what we always called meatball and orzo soup, and more closely resembles chickarina than it does Italian wedding soup in that it contains no green, leafy vegetables other than parsley. I'm going to make beef stock with the meaty short rib bones from my second burger making session in nine months. I saved them from the last time and have been waiting to gather enough to make stock with ever since. It totally brings this soup to a new level, which is awesome to begin with.