gknl
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Posts posted by gknl
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Wanna Switch???
I couldn't carry your cutting board.
I'm glad it went well. Truffles and caviar, is that a noble stink?
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Fair enough, but now that I think of it "Rolls-Royce" would be a better analogy. A friend of a friend owned one (actually, several in a row) and reported that they were nightmares to maintain--constantly in the shop. So the Rolls analogy would be "Here's a luxury item. It's expensive and difficult and hard to obtain, but your friends will be suitably impressed, provided they never find out from personal experience just what a bitch having one really is."
Which brings us back to marcus's original post, trying to warn us that the effort to get a table isn't worth all the trouble. I got the impression that, for such a grand restaurant with such a high reputation, the staff weren't as devoted to the customer as they should have been, but rather were trying to standardize the Chez Panisse experience like some sort of foodie boot camp.
More and more, it seems, these restaurants at the highest levels almost seem to be something that you have to not only pay a high tariff for, but to actually survive to tell others of your war stories. It's a little, I suppose, like military personnel trying to one-up each other, Navy SEALs vs. Rangers vs. Green Berets:
"*I* survived The Herbfarm!"
"That's nothing! *I* made it through The French Laundry!"
"You're all a bunch of wimps! *I* graduated from foodie boot under Gunnery Sergeant Tom Keller! What a hard-ass!"
I can think of many things which are better in abstract than in reality.
I think Marcus was recounting a single disappointing experience, which several people have echoed. But if you do a search for Chez Panisse, you'll find as many, if not more posts from people who have had good experiences there. Who's right? All of them, of course. Is it a case of the Emperor's New Clothes? Was it an off-night? Is it just different expectations and standards? Whose experience is more predictive of the one you'll have if you go there? Who knows, really. Caveat emptor after all.
Here's a question, not to veer too far off topic, is there something inherently wrong with a set menu or is it just that the execution fell short in these instances? Could the CP (and others) set-menu be likened to having the chef cook for you instead of ordering off the menu at a more conventional place? In other words, a sort of "okay, here's what we have and here's what we decided do with it" philosophy?
Isn't that what one hopes for in both situations? Of course, in one instance it's a choice and in the other it is forced upon you, but is there a level of trust between the diner and the kitchen that goes beyond ordering from a list of possibilities because personal control over the specific dishes is relinquished? And in exchange for that, certain expectations are heightened?
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the Herbfarm . . . came to mind immediately as I was reading Marcus' excellent post of a disappointing meal. . . . There seems to be a certain arrogance involved in these two spots...you will eat 'what we serve and you will enjoy it...(and if you don't too damn bad!)
I agree heartily, SG. These places (e.g. The Herbfarm, Chez Panisse, French Laundry, *and might as well mention Antoine's in NO*) give off a vibe that exudes "this is the way we do things here, and if you don't like it, you can stay home--or go elsewhere." Strange attitude for any business in what's after all a service industry.
It's like selling you a car and then telling you where and how fast you can drive it. I hate to sound reactionary, but "in the old days," the idea seemed to be catering to the customers' whims, not making them jump through a specific variety of hoops in order to dine. I guess it's the price you pay (in addition to the price you otherwise pay) so that you can say you've eaten somewhere.
If I want my stomach churned for fun, I'll ride the roller coaster at an amusement park. I'm not going to pay >$100 per person for the "privilege" of having it churned for me in a restaurant.
They're up-front about their policies. No one's forced to eat there. If you buy a Ferrari, do you complain about not being able to tow your boat?
I think it's about offering a specialized service/product and those who choose to may partake. And the others can buy pick up trucks.
That said, I've never been to CP in a large part because I know the one time I go, it's going to be something I despise on the menu.
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Gee that sounds great but it seems like a lot of food. Are both meat courses really necessary?
I guess if the portions are small...
Do you have to take care of the wine as well?
Too much food?
I wish I had that problem. Can I sit next to you at the egullet feast though?
Menus like this remind me I need a better job.
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201, just a suggestion that i'd like to have the time to follow myself: keep some sort of track/diary/notebook of what you do. like, what did/didn't work, ideas of why this was the case, suggestions for yourself etc. don't feel obliged to reveal it to egullet, as this will demand much more work. would be great, though
the reason i don't? 4 kids...home work...bedtime...school lunch...clearing kitchen...
A kitchen notebook is a great idea. I wish I were disciplined enough to keep one myself. I don't know how many times I've done something I liked only to not have a clue what I did a few months later when I want to make it again.
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Thanks for the menu explication! Of course, it leads to a million more questions that would require you to write a book to answer. . . .
But is there any way you could take us through a week in your kitchen? From initial sourcing queries to service? I hope I'm not being overly selfish or presumptuous by asking or putting you on the spot and of course, if it's something you have neither the time nor the inclination to do, I completely understand (probably the last thing I'd want to do after work is write about it, but then my job sucks
). I am fascinated by how the food business works (not that I ever want to be a cook, you guys work way too hard!) on both the physical and intellectual levels and how the two intersect.I talked to someone who used to cook full time about whether cooking was an art or a craft. She said that she considered herself a craftsperson but the real artists were the guys downstairs who had to figure out what to do every day and make it good. Since you're that guy at your place. . . .
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When I was 15, my dad joined the army and we were stationed in Germany. It didn't really change eating at home because of the commissary. I do remember how much better the milk and butter were there though.
How I miss good milk and butter as well.
What can we do???
I broke down and bought some Strauss Family Organic half and half last week, but couldn't really tell the difference in my coffee. I've read their butter is good (Nick Gatti had it at Chez Panisse from what I recall), but I haven't been able to bring myself to buy any yet. Mostly out of fear that once I try it, I'll have to have it.
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I'm really enjoying this thread, so I thought it was only fair to contribute too. And it needed to get bumped back to active topics.
What was your family food culture when you were growing up?
My father is much more open to different tastes and foods than my mother is, but that didn't matter when it came to eating at home very much. Dad's Irish-German-American and mom's Japanese-American so it was a weird mix of basic middle-class American fare with Japanese-American twists, especially rice. For example, spaghetti sauce (basic meat and tomato) over rice. Chili over rice. Beef stew over rice. Dinty Moore beef stew over rice. Steak and rice. Hamburger and rice. I used to love raw egg on hot rice. A lot of processed food too. Hamburger Helper was prominent as were Swansen's tv dinners. And Top Ramen noodles. Adventurous eating was mostly reserved for restaurants.
At the family get-togethers (all mom's family since dad's an only child and she's the youngest of 7) there was a lot of weird pickled and fishy Japanese stuff I still don't like to this day. My grandmother once put a fistful of sushi right in the middle of my mashed potatoes and gravy and I had to eat it. Blech. When I was 15, my dad joined the army and we were stationed in Germany. It didn't really change eating at home because of the commissary. I do remember how much better the milk and butter were there though.
Was meal time important?
Not particularly. My mother worked in my father's office for several years, so they were usually home late. My sister and I fought constantly too, so it was probably easier for everyone not having everyone together.
A few years ago, I was house-sitting for my parents and had some friends over for dinner. As we were sitting down at the dining room table, one of them asked me if I had a usual seat. I said "yes, downstairs in front of the tv." 
Even after we moved to Germany, we didn't really make it a point to have sit-down dinners with everyone. Was cooking important?
Not particularly. One of my mother's tricks was when she had to cook, she'd make a hideously huge batch of whatever and we'd end up eating it 3 or 4 days in a row. It wasn't that she was an awful cook, she just didn't like to do it, so she did it as little as possible with as little effort as possible. She would make something she called "okazu" a lot. Basically ground beef fried with onions and carrots and celery and whatever other vegetables were around, usually some potatoes too, in a soy-based sauce, sometimes teriyaki, sometimes just soy. Served over rice of course. Most of the time, my sister and I would say we wanted tv dinners when we were asked what we wanted to have. I think the appeal was being able to get what you wanted which made it seem more like eating out, which was always our first preference.
I remember when I was 7, one of my classmates had some cake that was really good. I asked him where he bought it and he said his mother made it. I went home, excitedly telling my mother that she could make cakes at home. She went to the cupboard and pulled down a mix and said "I'm going to show you how to do this once. If you want cake, then you can do it yourself." As I got older and started cooking, a lot of times I'd make something from scratch and then they'd buy a mix from the store because they liked what I made but the mix was a lot easier. Actually, they still do that.
What were the penalties for putting elbows on the table?
Manners were important when we did manage to eat together. If we wouldn't eat properly, then it meant we weren't hungry and we had to leave the table. I learned early on and was embarrassed more than once by my friends' parents telling them to eat more like me. I do remember being mortified by my father's preference for the European "eat with the fork in the left hand" manner though, but soon came to prefer that myself. But I would switch to the American "eat with the fork in the right hand" when I was at other peoples' homes.
Who cooked in the family?
Mostly my mother, but my dad would cook fairly often too. Especially breakfasts. He was much more adventurous when he cooked too. As much as he likes to eat and enjoys different flavors, you'd think he'd like to cook more. But he doesn't.
Were restaurant meals common, or for special occassions?
We ate out a lot and my sister and I would have eaten out even more. That's including fast food as eating out. But we'd also get Chinese and Japanese food a lot. One of my favorite things to do was to go to Japantown in San Francisco and see a samurai movie then eat beef teriyaki and tempura. The movie theater is now a Denny's which is really sad. There was also this restaurant, long gone and I can't remember the name, in Jack London Square that served buffalo steak, a huge porterhouse or t-bone cut. I loved that. For some reason, all the family banquets (wedding, funeral, or anniversary) were at Cantonese places, mostly the Silver Dragon in Oakland Chinatown. And one of my best friends was Chinese and his family had a business in SF Chinatown, so I'd get to go over there a lot. In Germany, we ate out a lot too. Gasthouse fare, mostly. Schnitzles rule. Over there they do anyway, they're not so good here.
Did children have a "kiddy table" when guests were over?
Yes, but not always. At some friends of my parents though, everytime even though it was just the four adults and my sister and I.
When did you get that first sip of wine?
My parents were willing to give me tastes of everything, so I imagine it was very young. They tell a story about when I was two and they had a party and they noticed I was very red and acting strangely. Turns out I had made the rounds asking people for sips of their drinks and enough of them complied to get me drunk. Probably explains a lot about my mental development.
Was there a pre-meal prayer?
Nope. It was an agnostic household. Both parents grew up in somewhat fundamentalist Christian sects and wanted us to find our own way to religion.
Was there a rotating menu (e.g., meatloaf every Thursday)?
Meals were never that structured.
How much of your family culture is being replicated in your present-day family life?
I would say much of it is replicated, but not exactly. I still eat too casually, in front of the tv, instead of savoring the food as a meal. I try to be better about it though. A lot of time my girlfriend and I will "eat civilized" which means sitting at the table instead of in front of the tv. Unless there's something really important on, of course.
And I try not to eat a lot of processed food, but since I work nights, it's hard not just to nuke something when I get home. I really do enjoy the cooking process though. I get pleasure and satisfaction from executing a dish or a meal beyond just the end result of how it tastes. I think that's what my parents lack more than anything else. I just wish I had more time for it.
Also, my girlfriend is not an adventurous eater at all. She'd be more than happy to live on basic American processed food. But I'm working on her. And I do eat out a lot. I still use restaurants as a staple and not just for special occasions. Some old habits die hard. I think it's eating in restaurants that spurred my interest in cooking. Being able to appreciate certain tastes and wanting to recreate them at home was a big part, especially once I was in college and fending for myself.
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What kind of stuff do you want to cook? I think maybe some of the books mentioned above, while you'll eventually want them all, might be a bit intimidating to someone just starting out. But you'll be able to tell what the appropriate ones for you are.
I like Joy of Cooking too, I have the last two editions. For some things I like the older one better, but I'm glad I have both.
If you're looking for bare-bones basic American fare, then check out Better Homes and Garden New Cook Book.
Alton Brown's I'm Just Here for the Food is a pretty good cooking and kitchen science primer, but if you hate his show, you'll probably hate his book too (you can tell he was a music video guy from the visual style of "Good Eats" but I think a lot of his camera work and editing is pretty clever).
And I know this is really uncool, but I still like the Frugal Gourmet books too.
Be careful though, cookbooks can be way addicting.
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Thanks Nick! I missed these.
One question though, how do you decide which sides go with which entrees? Specifically, choosing which dishes get the whipped russet and mashed yukon gold potatoes? And why no vegetable with the striped bass? I'm very curious about the thought processes behind the menu. I guess that's really three questions, sorry.
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I'm beginning to think this whole thing is a just a cruel joke and they don't actually exist.
I have a couple darks and a white in the freeze at home...I'll have one tonight in your honor after work.
Them darks is pretty good.
Try KMart. That's the only place I've seen the white ones so far down here in the Bay Area, but I'll admit I haven't looked very hard. And I didn't look for dark ones. They were in the special seasonal, Christmas, aisle. Not too bad. . . .
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Have you been to Whole Foods yet? There's one at Ashby and Telegraph in Berkeley. Always crowded with miserably obnoxious people, but they might have what you want. I doubt if it will be any cheaper than Andronico's though. I would rather go to the Market Hall or The Cheeseboard, but you never know until you try, right?
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Sometimes I like non-organic coffee. Call me crazy.
The measure lost. But even had it won, you could have gotten non-organic coffee as long as the workers were paid "fair trade" wages.
Kinda funny if you think about it though. It's okay to "ruin" the environment as long as you pay people more to do so. Or conversely, it's okay to "exploit" workers as long as they're saving the environment.
Only in Berkeley.
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Planet Hollywood's Captain Crunch chicken strips weren't bad!
Also, walleyes are in the perch family, distinct from pikes. They're also known as walleyed-pikes in some areas though, so that's probably where the confusion lies. I've never eaten them, but they're supposed to be good, much superior than pike proper. I'm too lazy to look up all the science stuff on them.
Finally, almost every article and baking book I've read about chocolate talks about how a pinch of salt does wonders for bringing out the flavor of the chocolate.
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I think he's looking for SF places. For some reason a lot of SFers are loathe to leave the city limits.
I'm told Maharani's on Polk Street is good, though I've never been. I don't know if it's still there. I think the one in Berkeley closed down. My two favorites in Berkeley are Ajanta on Solano Ave. and Breads of India on Sacramento. I've heard rave reviews of Vik's too, but haven't made it there yet.
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Well, I thought I should get a Kennedy book since I already have a Bayliss. Couldn't decide between Essential Cuisines and My Mexico, so I ordered both. I should get them in 10 days or so.
EGullet is bankrupting me, but at least I'll die better fed and happy!
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I made a trip to KMart tonight. They had more California and New Mexico chiles than any other kind.
Better than the "K" and almost as fun: Casa Lucas Market 2934 24th Street in the Mission. They have great chilis and Mexican ingredients.
Yeah, that is an amazing market, but are they open until 2 am? Plus the extra hour travel time and the $2 cover charge to enter SF from the east. . . . Kmart is unaesthetic, but convenient.
Besides, it's impossible to park in the Mission between all the damn suv yuppie-mobiles and all the tourists from Marin looking for cool-cred.
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there's a great little taqueria/ stand, starts with a G I think.
So much for memory, it's Yuca’s on Hillcrest between Franklin and Los Feliz Blvd.
My friend did warn me though that while still good, it's not as good as it used to be.
Are Tommy's really that bad? I'll admit it's been a long time since I had one. . . .
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Not that it matters particularly, but Daughter lives off Los Feliz near Griffith Park.
I have friends who used to live in that area, there's a great little taqueria/ stand, starts with a G I think. Great burritos, thinner and smaller than the usual California monsters, but very good. Cheap too. I'll email them and get the name and street for you. Before they moved, that was always a must-eat place for me.
And don't forget Tommy's burgers, if you want to do a proper LA Burger taste test. Which is the place that does the chili-cheese-egg burgers? Those are good. But maybe only at 3 am after being out on the town all night.
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My dad and I ate raw onion sandwiches - on Wonder bread, with Miracle Whip. Ah, the innocence of childhood.
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jeez, cathy, that's one of the hors d'oeuvres that i currently make!! add a little parsley and cut 'em in small circles, and there you have it. a *huge* hit at parties, if you can believe it.
That was the hors d'oeuvre that made James Beard's career. He called it, "Irma's Onion Sandwiches." I forget who Irma was...maybe his business partner.
According to The James Beard Celebration Cookbook, it's Irma Rhodes. She and her brother Bill collaborated with him in opening Hors d'Oeuvre, a catering business. Irma told Craig Clairborne, who provided the recipe for the book, that Bill visited a Paris bordello in the 1920s where he was served "irresistable morsels of food made with thin rounds of bread cut from a brioche loaf." It was their idea to sprinkle parsley around the edges though.
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Thanks for bringing the thread back up. I had larb for the first time last week at Tuk Tuk Thai in Berkeley. A Tuk Tuk is a little golf cart-type thing and they have one in the dining room. Nice place, bright, open dining room with a bar next to the open kitchen so you can see the chef cook. It's open late (rarity here in the Bay Area). Cheaper than most Thai places too. I went with my Thai friend (who I mentioned earlier) and whose roommate works there.
The Larb ($5.95) was a generous pile of chicken breast on chopped lettuce. The lime juice, chile, fish sauce, lemon grass dressing was perfectly balanced. The interspersed mint leaves gave nice flavor and textural accents.
I also had Guey Teaw Neau Sub ($5.50), a pile of sliced beef with a few vegetables in a sweet-spicey soy gravy-like sauce over rice noodles. The sweetness of that sauce contrasted nicely with the acidic bite of the larb.
We shared an order of vegetarian Tod Mun ($4.55), deep fried rounds of sweet potato in a crunchy coconut flavored batter, accompanied with a sweet dipping sauce.
I had bottled coconut palm juice ($1.50) to drink which was very good, but very sweet. It had a really nice caramelly aftertaste. My friend said it's not that common a beverage, most restaurants don't carry it. I would drink it again though.
It was great! Three things I'd never had before. The larb was the star though. It's definitely going on the must order list.
My friend works at a different Thai restaurant and said he copied down the larb recipe there, but forgot it. I should see him tomorrow though. He said I could post it because "larb is just home cooking and everyone knows how to make it in Thailand. It's nothing special." Sure tastes good though!
I also have Hot Sour Salty Sweetand will give their recipe a try too.
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What tarka (perfumed oil/tempered oil) do you add to your Dhoklas?
Since the thread is back up, and at the risk of killing it again (don't you hate it when you have the last post?), what kinds of tarkas do you recomend with Dhoklas?
I had an idea for Dhokla batter the other day. I don't know if it's inspired or insipid, but I thought about using it to make a tamale-like dish. Spread some batter on a banana leaf, then put some kind of savory filling, wrap it up and steam until done. I probably should practice my basic Indian cooking before taking liberties, but what do you think? Any possibilities or is the thought just horrifying?
Also, I've had Roti Prata at an Indonesian restaurant and enjoyed it very much. I haven't found a recipe for it though, but from the descriptions, it seems very similar to Paratha. And Prata seems like it could be a derivation of Paratha, I was wondering if anyone knew the relationship between two, if there is any?
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This naming inconsistency is supposedly most prevalant on the West Coast from what I've read. The main thing you need to be concerned w/ though is being able to identify them on sight so you can get past this Ancho/Pasilla thing. The pictures on both of the websites we linked earlier have pretty decent represantations of the chiles and the main way you're going to be able to tell is looking at the stem end.
The Pasilla will be long and fairly uniformly narrow.
The Ancho will be much wider at the top and look like a rounded off triangle.
Thanks for the mole history story. Sounds like a good movie idea.
I think I've got a handle on chile identification, among the basic types I bought. I thought I was missing something really obvious about the names, but I'm glad to see it is just that confusing until you learn them. And having them side by side makes comparing them much easier, even the smells. This is fun!
The horsetail stuff sounds scary. I think I'll just dump it.
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I didn't look to hard, but they do sell video copies, but I'm sure it's for an exorbitant price.
$350 to $600.
I guess there won't be a dvd box set anytime soon.
The Rice Cake of Death
in Food Traditions & Culture
Posted
I haven't had this in years, since before my uncles died. They used to make huge batches of it around New Year's. My mother would freeze some and saute them until there was a crust on both sides, then serve them with soy sauce. I remember being told each was the equivilent of a bowl of rice as my cousin and I had an eating contest.
Now I want one. . . .