marcus

lizziee -- Considering your glowing revue of Fleur de Lys, how does it really compare from a food perspective to Auberge de L'Ill and Boyer with which it seems to have the most in common based on your France write ups. Also, what about Ducasse.

Liziee -- Are you really coming around to the idea that the best dishes are reserved for the a al carte menu?

Jean Ducloux the chef of the wonderful restaurant Greuze in Tournus is a student of Alexandre Dumaine and continues to prepare many of his dishes according to the original recipes. The coq au vin was not on the carte the one time that I ate there, there was a different Bresse chicken dish featured, but he might be willing to prepare it on special request. He is quite elderly and I don't know how much longer he plans to keep operating the restaurant.

I believe that Gerard Boyer has completely turned ove the kitchen to his protege Thierry Voisin and this may well account for his relaxed demeanor. There have been rumors now for several years, even when I last ate there in 1999, that he would be retiring, but evidently it hasn't happened yet.

I remember a place from many years ago called Robin's in Henderson, not far from Lafayette, with great etouffe. Does it still exist?

Cabrales -- I really enjoy reading your reviews, I only wish that our tastes coincided a bit more.

Liziee -- Great report on one of my very favorite restaurants. Cabrales really had me worried awhile back, but you've definitely relieved my concerns.

I am not an expert, but there are many factors. The one that you mention low yield, will immediately take you out of the price range that you are looking for. After all, the yield per acre may need to be reduced by 2/3 to 3/4. By itself, this triples the cost of your grapes. Long storage in the barrels means that you need to finance the cost of your crop for another year or two and you probably will not be able to sell futures to cover these costs. There are also significant people cost to manage a fine wine through the vinification and barrel ageing process.

One additional point. The price of fine wines, especially Bordeaux, has surprisingly held up or increased during the recent stock market decline. However, the past few auction sales have shown a sudden sharp drop in prices indicating that there are now good buying opportunities, especially for those that pick their spots.

sfroth -- I agree with many of your points. The 1981 Beaucastel retains a profound depth and the feel of a great wine, but it has been losing fruit and so can be considered in decline, although I continue to enjoy it. I think that there are some very good 85s which seem to have been drinkable from day 1, in addition to Haut Brion which Steve P mentioned, Margaux and the oppulent Cheval Blanc are excellent, but the Pauillacs are mediocre and overall the 85s lack concentration. The 82s including the outstanding Gruaud Larose, which is usually one of the longest maturing wines, are with a few exceptions ready to drink. The superb Pichon Lalande is fully mature, as are Lynch Bages, Canon and Figeac to name a few fine examples. Cheval Blanc and Haut Brion are drinkable and Leoville Las Cases is just a little bit tight. Admittedly, the Pauillac 1st growths and Chateau Margaux are not ready. I find the 66s to be largely past their peaks, including Haut Brion and Palmer, my real favorite from that vintage. The Latour however, which is probably the best 66, is at its peak and still tastes young and vibrant. Steve P, you seem to be very sensitive to tannins, perhaps thats why you recommend such extreme decanting practices, and I can understand why you persoanlly prefer burgundies.

I think that its unlikely that you are going to find what you're looking for. Age worthy wines don't just happen, its built into the vinification process and is expensive, just the barrels can be very expensive. The winemaker would need to significantly increase his cost and would probably end up pricing his wine out of the market.

Robert -- I have a distant recollection that Gualtiero Marchesi worked his way through a number of the French 3 star restaurants. I am not a creative cooking fanatic and my lukewarm at best reaction to the nuovo cucina restaurants is not based on that, but on my perception of their lack of execution and brilliance. The Gambero Rosso in San Vincenzo is definitely on my list to try, but is in an area that I seldom get to. The guide book that I use most in Italy is the Gambero Rosso (no relationship to the restaurant) which uses a rating system that adds together food, service, decor etc. It covers restaurants, trattorias, wine bars and pizzerias, and overall I find it to be quite good. For restaurants, I focus only on the food rating which is 60 points on their 105 point system. Gambero Rosso gets 55 points, which is the highest of any restaurant, but so does Vissani of which, as I mentioned, I've only had negative reports. I am very open to the idea that great restaurants on the level of 3 stars in France exist as Francesco states, but I haven't yet found a consistent information source to lead me there.

Francesco -- Your entire analysis makes a lot of sense to me and I am very interested in your specific recommendations. I agree that da Fiore is just a very good, basically simple, fish restaurant of which in my opinion there are better in Naples. I have eaten in dal Pescatore which I found to be very good, but unexciting. Also Enoteca Pinchiorri, which probably can be considered French, Aimo and Nadia in Milan, Gualtiero Marchesi when he was still in Milan and San Domenico. None of these do I consider to be as good, or even close to the second tier 3 star restaurants in France that you refer to. I have never been to Vissani, but everyone I've spoken to about it has had an actively negative reaction, although it certainly gets high marks from the Gambero Rosso and Expresso guides. So my request is, tell me where to go on my next visit.

I am a big fan of Verget's wines, although there are differences of opinion as to Guffen's winemaking style. Bougros is one of my favorites, also Valmur which has perhaps a bit more complexity. Although Chablis is an early maturing wine, 2000 strikes me as just too young to dirink for a fine example. In my experience, white Burgundies are the least rewarding wines to drink too early.

I've had the 85 recently, never had the 88, and it didn't taste at all old, perhaps there was a problem with Fat Guy's bottle. 85 is definitely considered a greater year, but 88 is more forward and somewhat more acidic and this may appeal more to some. The prices are excellent and below recent NYC auction prices. I personally find the chardonnay only champagnes like Salon to be less interesting than conventional champgnes.

There are many wine tasting organizations around NYC and you can pretty much find anything that you're willing to pay for. However, this is certainly a fine vertical when it comes to Cheval Blanc and covers most of this wines most important vintages. 1947 Cheval Blanc more than any other single wine is proposed as the wine of the 20th century. Cheval Blanc however, whose main grape is the cabernet franc, is not the longest lived wine and there is debate as to whether the 1947 may be slightly over the hill. It probably varies on a bottle to bottle basis. 1945 and 1949 Cheval were also great, but the next great year was 1964. Other candidates among others for wine of the century are Mouton 1945 and Margaux 1900 which are still within their plateau's of maturity. In evaluating the $1235 price, you need to know exactly how much wine you will receive in a pour, I would assume 1.5 or 2 ozs, but you need to check. Here are the rough current auction prices for these wines that I am aware of: 1947 $2500 1964 350 1982 650 1983 250 1985 225 1986 150 1990 375 I would think that considering the opportunity to experience a large variety of these wines without having to buy bottles or cases would justify a 3X price.

Thanks Steve. Should I assume that in comparing Daniel to Taillevant you are placing his cuisine at the conservative end of the spectrum?

Steve, its unfortunate that your meal at Gagnaire was such a bust. The question that I've been waiting to ask you. I recall that you visited Daniel shortly before leaving for Paris. From the standpoint of the food alone, on an individual dish basis, how would you compare Daniel's dishes to the Paris restaurants?

I don't personally view egullet as a place for cerebration, but as a place for the celebration of food, which is largely a sensual not a cerebral activity.

There is an approach here that is so cerebral that it seems to be set apart from the real world. I personally agree completely with Robert Brown's analysis, but let me make one attempt at further clarification. The issue is not technical expertise, of course the professional has far more than the amateur, the issue is not willingness to communicate to the public, in fact most professionals are more than willing to communicate, nor do we need to dismantle our educational system. The real issue results from the fundamental divide that exists between the producer and the consumer. They play different roles and operate on different axes. Steve Plotnicki also expressed this well on one of his many many posts on this thread, so I'm going to leave it here, rather than further contribute to the process of going around in circles.

lxt -- you are slippery. You are redifining the term professional outside of the context it was used in this discussion. When Steve Klc referred to professionals, he was referring specifically to practitioners, people in the trade. Critics are not in the trade, they stand outside of it and using the term professional to include them under the same umbrellla, is misleading and a play on words. The important distinction is the one between the seller and buyer. The critic/reviewer is on the side of the buyer and views a product or a work of art from the buyer's (or publics) perspective.

As I recall, the issue was whether the views of professionals in the trade are more determinitive as to true value than the views of consumers. I don't believe that the ultimate success of Matisse and Prokofiev or other artists and composers is determined by the views of their fellow professionals. I don't even know that their fellow professionals particularly supported them. Even if they did, it wouldn't matter. It was the consuming public, perhaps with the leadership of certain critics and art historians, who are part of the public and not the trade, that passed judgment. Of course, artists and composers have an advantage, in that their work has persistence and doesn't disappear down someones mouth to be gone forever. In the latter case, its aesthetic value is rather irrelevant if its not appreciated on the spot.

I just took a look at the Parker site and it appears to cost $99/year. There is a free trial area providing limited access for one free week or 15 searches with only limited results returned. Am I missing something?

lxt -- I can decode what you're saying, but it ultimately comes across as gobbledygook. In the business that I'm in, we used to believe that we could tell customers what they wanted and needed. We've since learned that as professionals, its better to ask them.

I almost always agree with Steve Plotnicki's restaurant evaluations, but often have problems with his discussions of more general subjects, especially when he obsesses over standards, when I think that the interesting subject is connoisseurship. However, in this case it is just the opposite. I have eaten in Ducasse's Paris restaurant only, none of the others, and not yet at the plaza. In fact, the service was rather poor at my last meal, they didn't want to allow me enough time to review the wine list and then attempted to veto my choice and were quite offended when I didn't acquiesce. The food however provided one of my greatest meals in terms of overall succulence and execution. Admittedly, it did not strive for complexity, but I don't find this to be a problem, it was far from simple. Steve, you at least need to try the Paris restaurant once. Where I agree with Steve P completely is in his view of the dining trade and their attempts to dictate to consumers. I have been going to 3 star restaurants, bistros, and everything in between frequently, all over the world since the mid-60s. I know my way around and I know what I like. I find that a chefs view of the world is interesting to understand, but certainly not determinative. I do dismiss the opinion of the professional chef community when it doesn't jibe with my views and interests. There are plenty of actual restaurants that I really love. I've read many of Steve Klcs posts with interest, and my usual reaction is -- so that's how these guys think, doesn't bear much relationship to my view of the world, its almost like occupying a parallel universe. And I'm certainly not going to accept the premise from a professional that I am mistaken unless I accept his point of view just because he is a professional.