marcus

Fat Guy -- I've never eaten at Arpege and based on what I've read it has never gotten near the top of my list, but there are certainly many people and food writers who really love it, and within a broad range of criticism it certainly can be considered a 3 star restaurant. Lorain may not inspire as much negative passion among some as Passard does, but his restaurant was considered by many over a long period of time to be one of the weaker 3 star restaurants, until it was finally downgraded. I am not a fan of Roellinger and to me the Gramercy Tavern is a yawn. The point that I'm making is that although I may disagree with you on a number of places, I'm not challenging the validity or authority of your opinions. I'm surprised that knowing how various are critical opinions, that you are coming on so strongly here, that you offer a quote that chellenges not just the judgment, but the integrity of the Michelin guide.

Cabrales -- I can't think of any wines that are more polar opposites than Burgundies and Pessacs. Can you describe why you like these, and don't like other grand cru Bordeaux as well.

Cabrales -- If you go to the Christies and Sothebys sites, you can review past wine auctions with pricing in which you will find multiple instances of any wine from any year from any producer. If you then determine an average price, you will do well at retail if you can come within 150-175% of the auction price. The Chicago Wine Company is another site with both auctions and direct sales. Is there some particular reason that you're looking for a Burgundy. On a price performance basis you will do better with Bordeaux which are also more reliable on a bottle to bottle basis.

Bux, I was really more focused on the Italian regional cooking and only mentioned the nuova cucina as an afterthought. Its in the former, which used to be the glory of Italy, where I believe that the real decline has ocurred. Balsamic vinegar can't be that new in France, I remember a fish preparation at Aubergade in which Trama featured a very high quality balsamic vinegar along with wheat germ which itself had no flavor and was probably there to make a health statement. I am not a fan of Trama.

Robert, I am going to be very interested in what you discover in Italy. In my experience, the level of cooking in Italy has fallen much further and faster than it has in France. The wonderful, simple Italian restaurants with their fresh foods based on fresh ingredients prepared by ordinary people was an expression of an Italian lifestyle that no longer exists. As the lifestyle has disappeared, so have most of these restaurants. In France, cuisine is a hobby more than a lifestyle choice, and as such it continues to receive a unique focus, with a measure of insulation from the societal changes going on around it. At the high end, the nuova cucina is really French based, and although there may be a few exceptions that I haven't yet tried, overall it is a pale reflection of the best available in France even today.

Interesting, thanks. I can see the similarity of Trotter and Jean-Georges, both emphasize flavor for making a primary impact, and both are less than excellent in their treatment of foodstuffs.

Cabrales -- What's your net on Trotter versus the New York high end Daniel Jean-Georges Lespinasse Bouley Le Bernardin

Cabrales -- I work for a large and profitable corporation which knows all about profit, but we measure customer satisfaction just as avidly, and over time it can be a more important indicator of success. This is the dimension that is missing from your profit maximization model. I read your excellent review of Charlie Trotter, and even though it was not determinative, I could see that you were really unhappy that you didn't receive any complementary appetizers or a gift at the end. To a meaningful extent, this has colored your view of the restaurant and may affect future behavior. In a personal business, like a restaurant, generosity or the appearance of generosity is important, you can consider it a marketing expense if you like. On another thread, you indicated that you were pleased when a restaurant offered you free dishes and drinks. Fashion companies such as Prada operate in a rather different environment. It is impossible for them to generate significant good will, as their customers will abandon them in a heart beat if they come out with a less than to the moment collection. So they truly do operate in a profit maximization environment.

Fat Guy -- I still don't agree. The question is not what's the most that I can charge, but how can I best conduct my business. Look at restaurants like Astrance and Regalade. Both could easily charge more and remain full, even over the long haul. But both realize that they are building up tremendous backlogs of good will and very large satisfied customer sets. One can correctly claim that customer satisfaction has long term financial value, but it still remains a different approach than profit maximization. Cabrales -- I am sceptical that the statistical assumptions that underlie economic theories relating to profit maximization apply to a single small business providing a non-essential and non-standard product operating in one location with a limited customer set.

Fat Guy -- I don't think that any of us really understand the economics of 3 star restaurants and I don't believe that analyzing hearsay is going to get us there. I would comment that despite Veyrat's famous debts he still has managed to open a second restaurant, keeping each open only 6 months of the year, which is truly a deluxe situation for him. My main point remains the same, pricing to the highest point that the market will bear is not good economics. You need to consider your total customer set over time. You know that repeat business is essential. You may keep the restaurant full for some period, but the backlog may erode, regular customers may go elsewhere and suddenly the restaurant isn't full any longer, and you can't get your customers back.

Fat Guy -- I was not intending any comment on the profitability of 3 star reastaurants today, although I suspect that with a few exceptions they are quite profitable. I've also seen articles about how much going from 2-3 stars raises the value of the business. I was objecting to the concept that a business should price its product at the highest price that a customer is willing to pay and that this makes good economic sense.

Fat Guy -- Your economic thinking is too simplistic. Most industries, including the restaurant industry, operate on pricing that represents some total cost, including overheads, plus a profit margin. This profit margin varies by industry. If you have a superior product you can charge a premium, but it still bears a relationship to that industry's pricing structure. The fact that an individual business might be able to charge a much higher price for some reason for some period of time, generally called gouging, is not good business practice over the long haul and the stockholder should replace the management in this situation. None of this has anything to do with moral obligation.

Chez Panisse offers one less course on Monday night. The pricing is 3 courses on Monday for $45, 4 courses on Tuesday-Thursday for $65 and five courses on Friday & Saturday for $75. All courses are not equal. Anyhow, much lower pricing than we've been reading about in France.

The French have no monopoly on overpriced wine lists. Look at Gary Danko's online list of Red Bordeaux including 1982 Haut Brion at $3600, a wine costing on average a little less than $300 today at auction.

Steve, really great review which I read very intently. Reading between the lines, the one question that I would ask is did you enjoy eating Passard's cooking as much as you respected it?

Steve -- It is a large number, but requires people to recognize themselves as a group, which I suspect they cannot do and thus cannot band together to produce what they prefer. They may in fact be living in silent misery. Or perhaps more interestingly, the market has without anyone noticing, created a range of offerings covering all palates. In which case, good taste might be more multi-faceted than we realize.

I agree with regard to wine, but not food. Food is much more balanced in the importance of taste versus smell. In particular, supertasters find a large number of foods excessively bitter, which would have a profound effect on ones overall perception of a composed dish. The fact that supertasters appear to eat less overall than mediumtasters shows how fundamentally important this distinction is.

Steve, you should read the entire link provided by g.johnson on page 10. In fact supertasters are a small part of the population, 10% of men and 35% of women and the differences in their objective perceptions of food taste is quite profound. I know that you would like to dismiss this line of thought, because it doesn't fit into your theories, but you should take a real look.

The information that g.johnson provided regarding super, medium and non-tasters raises some fascinating questions which have been commented on but not tackled head on. (The Bush's in all likelihood don't like broccoli because they are super tasters.) If the population divides into at least 3 groups that taste foods differently, then there is probably no single objective standard for taste. I would guess that the quality of particular foodstuffs in and of themselves would probably not change, a fresh crisp tomato would be perceived as better than a mealy one, but which foodstuffs one would choose to use in a particular dish and the associated flavorings might well be different. If the bulk of the population is composed of medium tasters, then it is possible that they are imposing their standards on the other groups who are being told what they should like, but really don't. Condescending to them by telling them that they have bad taste then just adds insult to injury. Compounding the problem, my guess is that most leading chefs and food critics would have to be super tasters, because of their compelling need for discernment and accuracy, much in the way that many music composers and conductors have absolute pitch to a much greater extent than the general population. However, since they are producing for the general popultation of medium tasters, there is a fundamental mismatch that they need to adjust to for their audience. This can be rather difficult and may be one explanation as to why we dislike certain leading chefs or reviewers. I can easily imagine a super taster chef producing food that a medium taster views as lacking oomph, but that a super taster may view as subtle and refined. The question then arises as to which is superior from an evolutionary point of view. For the majority of our senses, there is a clear relationship, the more acute the better. For taste, we are being told that at some point, an increasing number of taste buds makes us eat less and so would appear to be disadvantageous. This is a question worth pondering.

You should be aware that not all coach fares are upgradeable with mileage awards on most airlines, I don't specifically know about United. Although there is already a 2 tier structure with fewer miles generally required for full fare coach versus discounted coach upgrades, there are certain fares, particularly those designated web only, that cannot be upgraded at all. You need to call the airline, and you may find that you will need to buy a higher priced ticket than you thought. If you are seeking a desireable destination at a peak travel period, then in all probability you won't be able to upgrade at all, as there are an infinite number of miles chasing a very small number of available seats.

Steve -- I can go along with made, produced or caught by hand, but the level of quality is independent and not built into the term artisanal, it needs to be applied as a modifier, such as the very best available artisanal ingredients. Artisan and Artist are similarly constructed concepts, so lets look at artist which is perhaps easier because we understand their product less ambiguously, which is art. One can view a work of art as great, good, poor, etc., but the term art does not in itself imply the best availble.

Robert -- The amazon.fr site show one remaining copy of Trois Etoiles au Michelin for 36.10 euros. I don't know their shipping charges, but this is bound to be far less than you would be gauged at Librairie Francaise. Going back once again to artisanal, I just did a search of dictionary web sites and there are actually very few references, none at all to the artisinal spelling. There appears to be more useage in French than English and it means "by an artisan". I don't take this as applying only to hand manufactured products, but also to products significantly nurtured by hand methods, even if they are a product of nature, such as herbs or fish. This appears to be todays common useage both in the US and France, at least.

Steve -- I think that we're getting at the crux or our language useage difference here. All artisans are true artisans, by definition. Poillane and Poujerain are superior artisans. Arpege uses not just artisanal ingredients, but the best artisanal ingredients.

La Bonne Auberge had 2 stars for many years until the old man passed away. In my experience, it never had 3 stars, but that only goes back to the 60s, and if Waverly Root said it did, it probably did. Although I have the disinct recollection that when L'Oasis received its star, the news report described it to be the first 3 star restaurant on the Cote d'Azur. Of course that report may be mistaken or my recollection may be faulty. With regard to "artisanal", Steve's description of terroir is quite correct, but it has nothing to do with artisanal. Artisanal is a term used commonly in France, probably half of the boulangeries in Paris have it on their signs. It means that someone in business is producing a product by himself or with a small number of co-workers using non-mass production techniques. There is an implication of quality and an implication of higher costs justifying higher prices, but the actual quality is ultimately not the determining factor. If the loaf of bread tastes terrible, it remains artisanal. The only reason that Robert's wife's herbs are not artisanal is that she doesn't sell them. If she took them to the local Saturday market, they would become artisanal. In Brittany, the catch of the small boats that go out for a day or two and return to Le Guilvenec at 5 PM with their catch auctioned immediately for transport to Paris is explicitly called artisanal. The catch of the factory boats that go out for a week or more at a time is obviously not.

Bux -- I'm not really sure what GM is really saying and it would be interesting to have the interpretation of a native French speaker. GM can be quite elliptical and translating with our school French can often miss their point or even be 180 degrees off. As Cabrales points out, they did use the term pathetique to describe the Tour d'Argent in the recent past, although it is not used in the current website review. I do believe that that review remains quite (justifiably) negative. The Senderens review is harder for me to interpret, but I think that there may be a dig there that we are missing.