schaem

Front of the house, or back? I'm always looking for new experiences, and have never lived in London before.

Why is Berasatagui's tasting menu in French?

I guess what it comes down to Steve, is our respective levels of trust in the judgement of the public. You seem to think that, on the whole, the public or market will collectively exhibit good (objective) taste, thus keeping terms like artisanal honest. I tend to think that the market will not be so selective and, therefore, artisanal will become another watered-down, meaningless marketing ploy. Honestly, Steve, I hope you're right. And maybe in France, you are. But, sadly, I don't think history is on your side in the US. I make a mean TV dinner, BTW. Handmade sausage, beans baked all day in the "Down-East" fashion, pudding made from artisanal chocolate from the finest, hand-selected Venezualan cocoa.

Wait, how can we both agree with Robert?

Actually, Steve, as I understand it the most famous and widely used state- imposed standard in France is the AOC (and in Italy, the DOCG). And the AOC is concerned with the method of production NOT the end result. They determine if something is worthy of the AOC label, based on say, percentage of specific grapes used, where they came from, and how they are processed. The AOC is not a panel of "experts" tasting something and saying, "Yep, quality". Some AOC products (bad years, bad luck) are no good, but they are still designated AOC, because they adhered to the certified standards of production. I repeat, standards of production, not taste.

Steve, your posts get more and more bizarre and ridiculous. The French eat better because of their use of language in marketing? So I guess, since marketing is a relatively new concept, the French have only begun eating well recently. The problem with your arguement, Steve, i.e. artisinal= taste, quality, is that concepts of taste and quality are subjective. How something is made is, relatively, objective. And language can be subjective or objective (I lean towards the objective). So, if one were to impose standards on what could be labeled artisanal, there would be a (reasonably) objective case for "made by skilled tradesmen". If the standards were based on something subjective, say, "tastes like it was made by an artisan", then there would need to be someone judging the taste. A panel of ten Plotnickis with their "certified artisinal" label deciding who was worthy and who wasn't, based on those impeccible tastebuds!

Maybe we should get William Safire on eGullet Q&A.

Look, I used to teach English. I've studied linguistics. I know language is a changing thing. But that, in no way, means that "artisanal", obviously derived from the word "artisan", suddenly means "tasty". The word "artisan" is fairly clearly defined, not just by the dictionary, but by common usage. Most people know what it means. If they don't, they probably don't use it, so common usage doesn't come in to play. I don't think adding an -al to the end suddenly muddles the centuries old meaning of the word artisan. As for "ivory tower", you obviously haven't seen my apartment.

No Steve, you are wrong. It is important that the word does meet some standard defined by the way it is produced, NOT the end result. You say "we" don't use artisanal to describe products that don't meet quality requirements, but you also say "the market" defines the word. Well, which is it? That is why objective definitions are important. If "we" define it to mean quality, but "they" define it however the hell they want (because "we", the sheep, let them) then the word means nothing. If we, however insignificant we as consumers may be, actually demand some kind of standards, maybe the market will respond. You may think artisanal means quality, Steve. But, etymologicaly, it doesn't. And if we don't demand that words mean what they mean then we lose the ability to communicate. If artisans (whether or not they make anything of quality) cannot represent their work properly, lost in a haze of dishonesty and miscommunication, they lose the ability to compete with the crap-makers. You believe in competition, don't you? Well, properly defined terms are one of the things neccesary to a (more) level playing field.

Plotnicki, jaybee, I agree that any word with appeal will be co-opted be marketers and diluted. Fine. We'll come up with new words. Fine. But, I, for one, would like to state my opposition. I thought I was a cynic, but Jesus! You guys make it sound like selling out and making crap and marketing crap as something special is ok just because you (we?) know better. I know I'm powerless to change the way the mass market works, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Plotnicki, you want to re-write the dictionary just because some scumbag adman tells you too? Fine, just don't give me a copy.

But Steve, we already have words for quite good and tasty. They are: "quite" and "good" and "tasty". "Artisinal" means made by skilled workers associated with a trade, possibly by hand. Even if they make shit, it is still artisinal. There is a kitchen slang - "shoemaker". It means someone who is only doing their job, collecting their paycheck, not putting any love or art or passion into their work. It is an insult, but ironically, a shoemaker is an artisan. Maybe that's why I don't define artisan as tasty. (That and my childish reliance on the dictionary.)

Oh yeah, I could never imagine a mass-production company misrepresenting their product, that would be....dishonest.

I can't believe you used "marketing term" and "level of quality" in the same sentence! (Actually, I can believe it.) It is precisely it's use as a marketing term which will eventually cause it to be meaningless and, thus, have nothing whatsoever to do with quality. That's why "public acceptance" is useless as a standard of definition. The public accepts far too much. Really Plotnicki, with this reasoning, you yourself might as well start producing "Artisinal American Singles" and save Kraft the trouble.

New Oxford Dictionary: Artisan- a worker in a skilled trade, esp. one that involves making things by hand. Even if you leave out the "by hand" part, mass-produced doesn't cut it. Workers in mass-production are generally unskilled workers with little or no attachment to a trade. They could just as easily work at Pain Pollaine as Wonder.

Ivan, Olympia is definitely one of the finest of artisanal beers on the market today. And a bargain!

Perhaps. But I think it is important to have definitions. I'm not saying mass-produced bread=evil, artisanal=good, just, by definition, not the same thing. I mean, if Kraft started producing "Artisanal American Singles" would that be an honest use of the word, or just a marketing ploy? I don't think it's anal to demand industry standard and definitions. Look at system like the AOC in France or the DOCG in Italy. Though not perfect, they help a new customer make decisions because they represent a set of standards. If everyone were honest, or everyone had time to educate themselves about the products they were buying, then standards and defintions would be less important. Me, I have about eight hours of free time a week so when I buy something that says "artisinal" or "organic" or "free-range" I can only hope there is some truth in it. Though in addition to being anal, i'm also a cynic, so I doubt it. BTW, I like a re-placed hyphen as much as anyone.

No, Pain Pollaine might be "tasty" by industry-wide standards, but if it is mass produced it is not artisan-al. Especially not by schaem-wide standards.

Right, and as opposed to mass-produced. But i think there are (or are going to be) a lot of things described as artisanal that aren't as the word's cachet grows.

I (cynically) assume it is a marketing ploy until further investigation. What I think it [should] mean is produced by an individual or small group focusing solely on the product or related products using time-honored techniques. I think we've had this discussion before but I don't think a turnip, say, can be artsinal because it is grown, not made by an artisan. Of course, great, small dedicated farms produce better turnips than commericial entities, but I don't consider it an artisinal product. It could be "organic" or "heirloom" or "grower", but, to me, not artisinal. Cheese can be artisianal. Balsamic vinegar, wine, olive oil, etc. (Actually I think the previous discussion was about "artisinal" fish, which is simply preposterous.)

Having made the leap from wooden clogs (bad back, shooting pains in the calves) to Naots (much better) and having worn those out, I'm looking for a new pair of shoes. Anyone wear Bragard? I like their other stuff. I like my Naots but find their appearence a little clunky. I do spend some time out of the back now so appearence is a little relevant (though i'm not about to switch to Jean-Georges fave -- Prada). I guess this isn't really a "General Food Topic" but I figure there are enough people here who might have some insight.

Pork Belly (fresh bacon) should be cooked long and slow. I've brown braised it in milk (then reduced the milk and used it in the sauce) and straight brown braised it in stock. Larent Gras at Fifth Floor claims to cook his (pork) belly "sur vide" (in plastic) for at least 12 hours!

Whether or not this guy is as big as Rocco Dispirito or not is irrelevant. Whether or not you like his food or not is irrelevant. I've never eaten there, I don't know the guy. I even missed the original Bid two-star review. All that matters is that Asimov brought his name into the review, and then didn't clarify whether or not he was responsible for the current cuisine. By mentionaing the (former) chef by name, Asimov is taking responsibility for being clear. Since I have no prior knowledge, Asimov gave me a piece of information and then left it dangle. Bad journalism, period.

Does anyone know the difference between Maine and Santa Barbara urchin? Most of the stuff in NY is Maine, I think. I also think most of the wood box stuff tends to be from Maine. What do the best sushi places get? (I think Bernardin uses Santa Barbara.) I've heard that the SB stuff is better (hard to take from an East Coast fish lover) but have yet to try. Also, I call that taste in some Uni and lobster "iodine-y", but I don't know its actual cause.

Thermae in Bangkok. Fortunately, my only visit was towards dawn on my birthday and I have little recollection. The bar is notorious for being one of the few that (mysteriously) remained open druing periods of martial law and curfew in the early 90's.