boagman

Key words there: "...I don't think..." You are *welcome* to your opinion, but we disagree, as I've stated several posts up. You seem to have trouble just disagreeing and letting it go at that...no, you have to throw in "It's two bucks. Get over it." and little baiting barbs like that. If *you* want to tip at that scale, that's fine. My problem with the entire situation is that I wasn't consulted on the tip, and when it was adjusted accordingly to the service rendered, it was questioned. Yes: I have a problem with that. You don't? Goodie for you. Move on, then. Nothing to see here.

And no, we didn't. We paid the bill in full, and didn't feel obligated to fulfill the entire gratuity. G-r-a-t-u-i-t-y. "A gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip." It's not *mandatory* by its definition. It's also *entirely* at the discretion of the giver. It's a *gift*, and one we didn't ignore. And it's not just about the money...in fact, it basically *isn't* about the money at all. Your ability to miss the forest for the trees baffles me.

Okay, now *that's* something that I can get behind! Perhaps I should have done just that, but neither did I want to convey to said manager that I was angry/upset with the service, either. It just plain wasn't worth what we were being charged, and I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that letting her know she was getting $145 instead of the full $145.87 was the best way to handle it. I do plan on talking to a manager regarding this issue, because I've been told that the online menu is current, and the menu clearly states that the tacked-on gratuity should have been 15%. I'll clear up this part of the issue early next week, I'm sure.

The view from the cheap seats really must be something, eh?

And here's where we disagree. While I don't expect four-star, white glove service for 20%, I do expect to be asked if I need anything else, like, say, another revenue-inducing drink. And that's at the least. If all I need is the food I order to *not* be spilled into my lap, well then, they can get a trained monkey to bring it to me. At least I'd be semi-entertained by a trained monkey. I never tip less than $1, even if it's well above 20%. So those dipweeds who start parsing their $2.99 breakfast special? That's not who I am, either...chances are, that's just a $5 deal out the door. Even so, greasy spoon or not, I don't care whether my waitress is named Flo, chews her gum like a cow chews cud, etc. If they want to be compensated well for their service, then the level of service had better be commensurate with that expectation. If the $2.99 breakfast special gets dropped unceremoniously in front of me and my glass is empty without being addressed? I notice, and yeah: I adjust the tip. It's hard *not* to get $5 out of me on a special like that, but it *can be done*. I do not now, nor will I ever, believe that "good" service ignores empty glasses and baskets on the table. On the pragmatic side of the restaurant management, if I found out that my server *wasn't* trying to sell more drinks to a large party of diners, she'd be on the business end of a serious derriere-chewing, if not out looking for a new job.

Allow me to *set* you straight: we did not get "good" service. I would have *recognized* that, had it happened. No, the service we received was merely "functional". I guess I'm just running roughshod over the service industry by thinking that a server should ask if we wanted more margaritas, sangria, etc., rather than just having the empty glasses removed. I guess that seeing empty baskets of tortilla chips is too difficult a clue that, gee golly!, maybe they should refill them. We ordered the food, it came, it didn't make us sick (that I know of). We served ourselves our own beverages in ridiculously small glasses, because we weren't getting more beverages that would have made the restaurant more money, and increased the server's tip. I'm afraid of your attitude, that anyone who schleps food in any joint, *however* they choose to do it, should thereby be entitled to whatever they decide their own service is worth, and that those who don't comply are thereby cheap, or curmudgeonly. Will I be assimilated? Is resistance futile? Is it so hard to imagine that others at the table weren't all that impressed by the service, either? At 19% for doing not a whole heckuva lot, I think she made out quite well, the more I think about it. I wish I could do so well for such work in my own occupation, which, believe it or not, is *also* very service-oriented. You'd have a point had we left 10%, and perhaps even at 15%, but at 19%, *KEEPING THE LEVEL OF SERVICE IN MIND*, I'm inclined to disagree, strongly. I think that's actually more than she should have received. To have asked for more, in my opinion, was out of line.

I guess I can live with this. I didn't stiff her, and in my opinion, as a table, *we* didn't stiff her. I'll agree that, somewhere down the line, one or two of my compatriots didn't ante up, and that's wrong...on them. I'm still going to find out about the fine print. That's one of my Things To Do in the coming days, since 20% is the highest autograt I've ever run across, and that was part of the original beef. Oh, and I have never, and *would never* skip out on a bill, nor skint the server, unless said server was honestly *begging* for no tip via an absolutely crappy attitude... If I can't *afford* to eat out, I just stinking don't. I do feel just fine adjusting the tip commensurate with the level of service, though, and if things are bad, I say something to someone in charge. As a matter of being even-handed, when things are good, I *must* say something as well to someone in charge. If all I do is moan, and never praise, then that makes me a jerk. In fact, just this week, I called to speak to a manager to let him know about the superior level of quality I received from one of his servers on Sunday. Called him at an off hour, so as not to interrupt a major service. I tipped the server about 50%. But it didn't include the sales tax!

What kind of service did I expect? Well, I *guess* I expected to be offered another pricey beverage when my first one was done. I know...dopey me! I mean, heaven forbid! I guess I thought that more tortilla chips should have been brought when they saw that the first baskets were empty. How stupid I feel now. Could I have tipped more? Sure, I could have. I mean, heck, why shouldn't I just head down to the ATM and get out more cash so that I can just tip out at 80%? That seems fair...I WAS ALREADY TIPPING AT 40-50%! I had already thrown in extra cash for it! The establishment was strongarming us for 20%, and at 19%, being that a gratuity is still supposed to be *my* decision, I felt justified in giving that. I've also been known to short Wendy's the occasional two cents when buying a combo meal. Oh, the *shame*! And as a matter of fact, overtipping bothers me. Being *forced* to overtip further annoys, and being presented with an attitude of entitlement to said overtip chafes. I don't have a problem tipping at the bar...but if I'm getting table service, and I have to trot off to the bar to get my beverages, yeah: I'm gonna have a bit of a problem with that! In most cases, tipping on the tax isn't a big issue. When it's being forced down my throat, however, it's just *one more thing* that serves to needle. I've never felt obligated to tip on tax. It has absolutely *nothing* to do with food, beverage, or service rendered. The establishment merely collects it and passes it on to good old Uncle Sam. Usually, though, it's up to me to determine whether I'm going to tip on the tax or not. Not here! Nosiree! In the end, had the service warranted it, I'd have been rallying the troops for more cash to cover the entire 20%, and then some. It didn't, and I didn't. I wasn't embarrassed to give her what I did, and was rather appalled that she'd say anything at all. It's one of those "rubber meets the road" moments, and had it been pressed, she'd have been unhappy with the results. Again: it has to be *earned*, not merely *charged*. Or, in the restaurant world, is there no difference anymore?

And yet, even this morning, he's feeling less and less so. So, by your way of defining things, if I'm a server in *any* sit-down restaurant in the US, I should automatically get to decide my own pay level? I mean, wow...why stop at 20%? Shoot, 25% sounds good, but you know what? 50% sounds even better! Wait, wait, wait...100%! That'll even appease all the OCD people out there! Just double the bill! I guess I'm one of the Oppressors Of Waitstaff Forged In The Depths Of Hell By The Devil Himself. What's sad is that I had to (as always) rustle up more cash from people after the initial collection, as there's always a shortfall in groups. Once I did this, and put in even *more* from myself (I ended up paying about $14 or $15 for my own $9.95 meal...by my estimates, that's minimum 40%, folks), our cash pile came to $145 out of $145.87, which I considered plenty, considering that they were strong-arming us for the tip, which, given the level of service provided, seemed excessive. So yes, go ahead and vilify me. I'm fine with that. I've been on the opposite side of the equation, but the sense of entitlement that's becoming more and more apparent from dining establishments is, at the very least, starting to become a sore spot. If that makes me a cheap bastard, then a cheap bastard I'll be! Considering that I hang out with several people (though they weren't there last night) that are very appreciative of the way I compensate servers (considering that they served for good, long times themselves), I won't be losing any sleep over it. I still think that the automatic gratuity, at the very least in this particular case, was unwarranted, too large, and that she was well-compensated by us. I guess *I* need to draw the line, since all servers everywhere will never be satisfied.

Because of the very nature of the term: "gratuity". It's a gratitude *to the server(s)* for their work and pains. And dear heaven above...you want to balk about tips being *taxed*? Um, earnings in the United States are taxed. Get used to this. It's in *every* profession. Jiminy. If the restaurant is keeping all or some of the gratuity for themselves, then that's a major issue...but not for *me*! If that were the case, and management was stealing from me, I'd walk out, *and* call a lawyer! I will never, *ever* conclude that the gratuity is compulsory, and I've been on both sides of the equation.

Yeah...you've obviously had a pretty hard night at work, so I'm going to let you breathe for a bit. "Harried waitperson", eh? We were, literally, the *only table* in the room. Now, there were other rooms in the place, so yes: it's entirely possible that she had more tables than just us, but that isn't how it looked. Could I be wrong? Yes, but "harried" isn't a term I'd have used to describe her, or her situation. This restaurant was *not crowded*, even on a Friday night. About the policy, it's listed on the online menu that I just checked as "Tables of 6 or more 15% gratuity." I admit that it may have been different on the paper menus tonight, but I didn't pay that close attention, unfortunately. For "adequate" service (which I'd merely call "functional"), I'd usually tip at around 15%, honestly. My normal number starts at 20%, and for the love of Pete, it's not hard to achieve the 20% or to even get slightly higher than that...but you do have to at least try to do things like find out if people want another drink after they've finished their first. I'm pouring my own stinking water...do I need to tally-ho to the bar for my paid beverages as well, and then tip them for the privilege of drinking there? Great service can actually be tipped at 30%, if they earn it. And that's pretty much the key: earning it. You seem to be confusing a couple of things, here: I shouldn't *have* to "tug on the shirt" of the server for a refill...that's kind of their *job*, you see. If they'd think about things a bit and perhaps bring larger water glasses, then they might not have to unceremoniously drop condensation-laden pitchers of the stuff on the table and scoot off to who-knows-where. You can't have it both ways: the tip reflects service(s) rendered, and a place not-so-slightly "forcing" a certain percentage on me doesn't mean that they're automatically free to serve me at their leisure, in whatever form they've decided, simply because, as customers, serving us is an "inconvenience". There is, built into the cost on the menu, the cost of service, is there not? I'm not above (and have done so in the past) tacking on an extra tip over and above the percentage tacked on if the service warrants it (and yes: it's practically a necessity on holidays), but to infer that my withholding eighty-seven cents from this server on a tip of $23.44 is some kind of unfair play, well...that's just not the case. Especially in light of the amount of service rendered, the fact that she *still* got 19%, *and* the fact that the tip was calculated on the subtotal *and* the sales tax. Don't think I missed that little doozy. The questions I've raised in the original post stand.

Okay, so I'm out tonight with a decent number of friends at a casual Mexican restaurant in downtown Detroit. It's a decent, low-scale, family-style restaurant, and the average per person charge is around $10-12. Add on a couple of drinks (both alcoholic and non) here or there, the added-on sour cream or so, someone getting meat on one of their entrees that normally wouldn't have, and you come to a grand total of $121.56, tax included. Then, there it is: 20% tacked on to the very end of it for a grand total of $145.87. After obtaining funds from everyone at the table and being short the requisite few bucks, we take the collected funds of $145 to the server. Now, keep in mind that we've been extremely low-maintainence...we're fine with the pitchers of water that are brought, we're not requesting more tortilla chips, no one sent their meals back for any reason, which, considering the size of the group, was pretty darned good. We're not exactly taxing our server. When I take the $145 to the server, she says, "...and eighty-seven cents?..." rather expectantly, as if she's somehow *owed* this amount. Keeping my composure, I explain, "Well, since the tip has already been included without our being consulted, I think we're just going to let that eighty-seven cents go." I mean, cheese and crackers, people...an automatic 20% added *and* the gall to moan when eighty-seven cents of it isn't there? I have to admit that, considering the service shortcuts taken (the self-serve pitchers of water, the non-refilled tortilla chips, not asking if we were interested in more beverages, etc.), I was pretty taken aback. First, I have *never seen* a 20% automatic gratutity...the highest I've seen was 18%, and usually it's 15-18% for tables of six or more. Second, doesn't this amount still need to be *earned* by said server? Third, is it generally understood that this amount is NOT OWED to the place, or server? That it is, in fact, *optional* if the customer so chooses? Honestly, the place probably would have been better off not tacking it on in the first place, but still: that was probably the closest I've ever come to retorting, "Oh...are you saying that you're *owed* a tip of $23.44? Would you care to *test* that little theory of yours? Because your tip is going down by the minute..." I wouldn't do that, but doggone it...there are times I'm tempted, and this was one of them. Service was basically functional, but certainly not anything to write home about, and at no time did they have to, nor choose to, go out of their way for us.

I honestly can, but only in mournful retrospect. I truly *hate* Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI, and I only went there for one year. I hate it now, and I hated it while I attended there, back in 1990-91. And yes, that included the food, but how little I knew then. I transferred my next year to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL the following year, which I *loved*. However, I did learn at least one thing: sometimes you don't know what you've got until it's gone. The food program at Moody was just downright *awful* when compared/contrasted with that of Calvin. I was ungrateful for Calvin's food while I was there because I'd been spoiled all my life by my mom's great cooking, and Calvin's came up short when compared to that. Big shock there, eh? Going to Moody was still worth the lousy food (and I understand that they've made *great* strides of improvement to the food...since I left, of course), but comparing Moody's food service to Calvin's was just like comparing Calvin's food to my mom's...there just wasn't any comparison. Calvin actually had *great* food service. So yeah: decent college food is out there, or at least it was when I was going to school. On a side note, the *best* mass-produced/"institutional" food I've ever had in my life was at a camp in Wyoming, and the food there was done by a wonderful couple who just so *happened* to be retired bakery owners. I was only in junior high at the time, but holy stinking cow...I knew wonderful food when I tasted it. Never, *ever* have had better "institutional" breakfasts, lunches, or dinners. Yeah, it may have been smaller in scale than a college, but the principle remains the same.

For some excellent BBQ in the Detroit city limits, Slows would be the ideal choice for you. An advance warning: service can be, and often is, pretty lousy, but the food (at least for me and those I know) is consistently high quality. The pulled pork is fantastic! The split pea/okra fritter appetizer is also highly regarded by us, and when I've had the catfish with its remoulade, I've liked it quite well. Again, though, if service is really important to you (and when you're on the road, I can see how it might be), you might be better served to pass it by for another time when you have a bit more time to spare. Zingerman's Roadhouse may be good, but I still say that its eye-popping prices aren't justified by the fare. Oh, and if by "good ethnic of any kind", that includes Middle Eastern food, you cannot go wrong stopping at any of the myriad places in Dearborn.

Dear *heaven*...SOFT SERVE?!?!?!? I mean, for heaven's sake, why bother making soft serve into a milkshake? Even more, if they're using anything lower-fat than, say 2%, they just don't know how to make a milkshake. Good grief...soft serve. Were they raised by morons or something? That's not a milkshake, that's an atrocity! Hand-dipped. Otherwise, why bother? A correctly-made milkshake will collapse the straw it's being attempted to be drawn from when initially served. Spoon is included, and as the temperature rises slightly, the straw becomes part of the process, and the spoon far less significant, if necessary at all. I am nothing less than offended that there's a high-end hamburger place *anywhere* that would even consider making a milkshake using soft serve. That's...just wrong.

I take it that, with this particular irritation, you're referring to when you dine alone as well? Because honestly: if you're at a four-top, and the apps come up and out, and three out of the four customers are at the table, I gotta tell ya: the apps should be served. The server may think that you're in the bathroom, or heck, even that you're out for a smoke, but I don't think it's out of bounds to continue the service for others while you're gone. Now, if you're just by yourself, I can see what you're saying.

The problem with the Roadhouse is that it's priced like a special occasion restaurant, but has the ambience and food and niche of being neighborhood restaurant. The food quality and preparation is top notch, though - I have no doubt that their $26-$30 specials are going to be great, but if I'm paying that much for dinner, I'm going somewhere else. The burgers and sandwiches are pretty reasonable, as is the daily blue plate special. So we manage to treat it as our neighborhood restaurant by choosing carefully and just ignoring huge swaths of the menu. ← But then, it's a hard place to recommend to friends, as it's neither one, nor the other. On the whole, Zingerman's is pricey, but from what I understand, some of that priciness is justified due to quality standards that are the highest. I can understand this. But as you say...when their "specials" are in the high-$20-to-low-$30 range, there had better be some very, very, *very* significant ambience, service, et al to go along with that. The price of *quality* can be justified only so much...there comes a point where it's just plain disingenuous. Be one, or be the other, but don't try to be both, and fail.

Good call on FLG being closed on Sundays, Alex. I hadn't even taken that into consideration. Thanks for providing the link to DJBs that I neglected to...if that's not the best place for my money in Novi, I don't know what would be. One of these days I'm going to head out to A-Squared and give Zingerman's a whirl. I've never been there, and really don't have a good excuse anymore: a friend of mine at my Bible study works there, and can provide me a discount, so I need to see if their corned beef on rye with Russian dressing and cole slaw is, in fact, better than Stage's. If only the Roadhouse wasn't so blinking expensive...

If Novi's too far (a shame, as Diamond Jim Brady's would be a quick-as-a-wink recommendation from me), how about Five Lakes Grill in downtown Milford? Brian Polcyn's place has gotten consistently great word-of-mouth for years, and his charcuterie is an absolute specialty. Not too far from Brighton, either. Hope that helps. Seriously, though: Diamond Jim Brady's is awesome, and worth the, what, 20 minute drive on I-696? It does, of course, depend on where you are in Brighton, too, but considering that it's *right* off of the Novi Road exit, you can't ask for a much easier-to-access place than that, with Mary Brady doing what she does best in the kitchen. I *really* love DJB's.

Hey, now, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, here. I have had some absolutely *fantastic* bread in my time from places great and small, expensive and inexpensive, and sometimes it *is* very much worth it. A bread artisan isn't the easiest thing to come across, IMHO. A bread course isn't uncommon in certain places I've been, and usually when it's a course, it's something to behold. Had some restaurants that I've been to "not bothered" with bread, they wouldn't have made the same impression that they did. Let's not be "down" on fresh, house-made bread any more than we'd be "down" on fresh, house-made pasta, shall we? Call a spade a spade.

Simple solution, right on the menu: "bread basket served upon request (additional charge of $X may be levied)." Is it tacky? Yes, perhaps. It's a *heck* of a lot less tacky than charging $6 for junky, stale bread. No one likes being charged for something that's seen normally as "free". It looks twice as bad when the bread isn't fresh, and/or good. It's downright deplorable when it's SIX FREAKING DOLLARS FOR JUNK. I understand a restaurant's need to make a profit, but one can't make a profit using such tactics, and then claim "Rising costs! Rising costs! The sky is falling! We'll never make it!" It's not been a problem here in the Detroit area...yet. Or, at the very least, I haven't seen it happen here when I've been out. Then again, I don't go in to every place expecting a bread basket...as UE alluded to, few are even worth the trouble. To me, bread should be a stop-gap measure in keeping my stomach from growling due to extreme emptiness, or, if it's really something exceptional, a course unto itself. But it had *better* be something to behold if I'm being "charged". I especially enjoyed the line from the previous poster about being charged extra for a meal being warm due to rising energy costs. This bread thing sounds like it's not far away from that particular kingdom, and if I even *start* to detect that I'm being nickle-and-dimed by a restaurant, I'll vote with my wallet...by keeping it closed.

Yes, Z, how were the peas?! Did you try them peas? ← I went over the menu about five dozen times before deciding on the Arctic Char, Mustard Greens and Lentils.......so none of 'dem peas for me. It was a tough, tough choice, but a very good one. Having such limited capacity for food now DOES have its drawbacks......BUT leftover char and greens makes a pretty great late night snack. ← Oh come *on*, man! "All we are saying is give peas a chance!"

It's a fair statement, but being equally fair to the establishments that have "gotten lazy" over the years, the vast, *vast* majority of those dining out won't base their destination on what amounts to a glorified side dish. Yes, they're an American institution (though hardly exclusive to America), but when people are deciding on a place to go to eat, their choices are usually defined by entree, and not by sides. Rare's the day when I get a strong enough hankering to drive out of my way for a batch of fries. In fact, it's never happened before. A great burger, though? Yeah, I'll drive for that. While sides are important, and I *definitely* understand where you're coming from (I often don't get fries anymore from some of the finest burger destinations here in Detroit), I understand the other side of the coin, too. All things being equal, I find that in my own mind, the quality of the entree is more important than that of any side that might come with it, a la carte or otherwise. Not hankering for ho-hum fries is also probably one of the few things that helps keep my belt buckled where it is.

Wow...the former Ny's storefront is now a pasta place? Or are you referring to the place that was/is next door to the former Ny's? Either way, the damage of losing Pany to Switzerland was already done, unfortunately. Whatever the space is now, it'll never be what it once was. On a *very* pleasant note about a Novi eatery, Diamond Jim Brady's Bistro (www.djbistro.com) near Steve and Rocky's is *far* superior to Steve and Rocky's in just about every conceivable way. DJB's is probably my favorite place to eat in Novi, hands-down. Mary Brady is an absolute talent, and the things she does with food at the prices she charges will make you feel like you're robbing the place. Wonderful stuff. I have *never* had a bad meal there, period. Try the specials. Really.

I really enjoyed the Big One that I had. Both my brother and myself did, noting later in the game that we were really glad that we took the time before the game to stop there. That being said, while I thought it was really good, "best burger I've ever eaten" is something that I wouldn't bestow upon this very tasty burger. It's good, but it's not *that* good. In fact, Redcoat and Miller's both trump it, IMHO. Now, that's some pretty healthy company to be mentioned in the midst of, but while Rodney's food is good, it's not "best ever" material to me. "Best available around the Big House?" I can do that! "Best in Ann Arbor?" That could very well be! "Best I've ever eaten?" Sorry. Can't go down that road with you. Again, though, thanks for recommending it to me! We really liked it!