fortedei

I want to ship 20 cases of French wine to Italy (don't ask!). It is for my (and my wife's) consumption over there. Has anyone had an experience with carriers who can take care of this. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Bravo! That was just great.

First of all, I am sorry if I "dishearten" you. I am not sure what "facts" of mine you are calling "incorrect". Over fifteen years your name traveled from a larger barrel to a smaller one. That is how it should have been. In the course of those fifteen years though the liquid was mixed with older vinegar that was left in the barrel. The barrels are never fully emptied. Each year each barrel has some vinegar poured off either for bottling depending on where that barrel is in the cycle or into smaller, older barrels for continued admixture and aging. A good description of the process is given by Pamela Sheldon Johns in her excellent book Balsamico! How am I confused? It is you who I think is confused. 36yo balsamic vinegar would not have been in "large barrels" during the war or at any other time. In addition, why is it so hard to believe that some balsamico would have been protected by the people who invested so much time into making it? Did the industry start up completely anew after the war? Show me some solid evidence of that and you might have a point. Besides at that time balsamico was a mostly local or regional tradition with mostly local or regional importance. It was really only late in the twentieth century that balsamico developed much of an audience outside of E-R. It's value would not likely have been great to outsiders bent on destruction, though undoubtedly plenty of good stuff was wasted or ruined. As for my comments that "disheartened" you, I was conceding some to your skepticism, but the more I think about it the less I feel I need to concede in that regard. What my son and I tasted that day out of the tiny barrel in the barrel rooms of the Acetaia del Cristo was a truly magnificent and special syrup even more than their other vinegars, which were also delicious. I have no reason to doubt that it was what they said it was. So unless you have some real "facts" to add instead of anecdotes about your friends inability to differentiate wines tasted blindly, I consider this element of the discussion for me closed. ← Two things: 1. Glad to hear that you still believe you and your son tasted a truly magnificent and special syrup that was 100 year old balsamico. Have you ever been to a non commercial acetaia... the late Franco Colombani's perhaps? 2. How did that first small barrel get to be what it is? I know how mine got there. I think you are challenged visually and mathematically with regard to aging, but we're not going to get anywhere discussing that. I haven't read Balsamico, but I have looked at some of Pamela Sheldon Johns' other books. She has a good imagination, but as for substance...?

As I said earlier, I don't doubt your skepticism. You have good reasons for it, however, some of your logic is faulty. WWII was certainly traumatic to the area with plenty of losses as it was elsewhere in Europe including the famous wine regions of France. Nevertheless, even there valuable wines were protected and preserved. Why not in Modena as well? I did not walk in off the street to the Acetaia, one of top repute. I was introduced to it by a very well-connected friend, who has written a very good book on Balsamico in which this particular Acetaia was featured. Especially given the quality of what I had (and yes, Robyn, it really was that much better), I have no reason to doubt that what they gave me was what it was purported to be. To the poster who said that balsamici tradizionale from Modena are labeled as either 12 or 25+ (extra-vecchio) technically that is true, however, that does not mean that there aren't special bottlings of the vinegar with greater age and weight to them. Perhaps some of the age labeling is hyperbole, but if tasted side by side in a blind fashion one can definitely taste and feel the difference. Perhaps you, Fortedei, are taking the 100yo designation too literally and assuming that the nectar is all 100yo and therefore would be almost completely dissipated. It is still a product of the solera type system that is used for balsamici, so that the oldest vinegar within the cask is at least 100 years old, but that the bulk of the fluid comes from other younger vintages that have been added over the years. Regardless the vinegar asa whole is still considerably more aged than other balsamici. I said that I did not have the opportunity to buy this stuff at Acetaia del Cristo in Modena as they were out of bottled stock. It is rare stuff, but it is available for sale - at The Rare Wine Company. For anyone who remains skeptical I suggest you buy some and taste it side by side with 12 or 25 y/o balsamici tradizionale. ← Unfortunately, some of your facts are incorrect. Also, it is disheartening to see that you are now saying that the quality of what you had was excellent (as I said before, no problem with that, that’s all good) rather than your first statement that you had 100 year old balsamico. Now you talk about labels containing hyperbole and the “vinegar as a whole is still considerably more aged than other balsamici.” As for facts…I saw the process through a 15 year period. My name was on the barrel during the first year and was on a different barrel at the end of 15. I think you are very confused about what the solera system is all about. With regard to your comment about the war. Perhaps some balsamico was protected and preserved. Doubtful, but possible. If you’ve ever read Italian books about the effect of the war in Emilia, you know that the scope of the war was very different from that in and around Bordeaux. In 1942, were large barrels, filled with (at that time) 36 year old balsamico, unscatched? Perhaps… but then again perhaps there were no large barrels of 36 year old balsamico in 1942. Here is a story to think about. A close friend of mine invited two of his friends (very well known academics) to dinner at my house. One of these people is Italian, who lives in Rome, the other American. Both fancy themselves as oenophiles and pay a great deal of attention to what they eat and drink. They have spent inordinate amounts of time at table, in France, Italy of course, and in the U.S. They know a lot of vintners and lots of famous restaurateurs. They’ve drunk great quantites of the best bottles of France, Italy, the U.S. and Australia (and it seems as if they have total recall because they can recite the litany of most of what they’ve had). This time when we had them over, I though we’d serve the wines blind. They were very enthusiastic when I proposed this. The first wine was poured and they discussed its merits ad infinitum. I asked them two simple questions: where was the wine from and what was the predominant grape. After considerable discussion and much amusement for the rest of us at the table, they decided that it was syrah, from the Rhone and probably a Cote Rotie from Guigal ( I’m making this last part up because I really don’t remember exactly what they said, but it makes my point). The wine was a Barolo. The response was “oh, right, yes of course, I should have noticed that by the tannins, clearly a Barolo, blah, blah, blah). We did it again for another wine, this time using a Jaboulet Hermitage. Their guess was a Burgundy. Can’t get the grape, in one case couldn’t get the country. I’ve seen this over and over again with professional tasters. Bevi il vino, non l’etichette, but if the label says this is what it is, that is what it should be. People count on it whether it is wine or balsamico.

Okay, we'll start a balsamico topic. At the bottom of this post is what I posted on the other thread. I would add to this thought that no one, Docsconz, is questioning if you liked the balsamico that you had; obviously you did and that is all good. I was raising the issue of the statement you made: "Wendy, did you happen to note which Acetaia the 100yo balsamico was from? When my son and I were given some 100y/o balsamico to taste at Acetaia del Cristo, it was one of the highlights of our trip - truly wonderful stuff." As outlined below (once again), I'm very skeptical about the existence of 100 year old balsamico. When someone says that they've had a "100 year old balsamico" and asks which was the acetaia that another person had their "100 year old balsamico" (with a photo shown of the "100 year old balsamico"), it doesn't ring true. It still doesn't ring true and again that doesn't in any way mean that the people (Docsconz and Wendy) haven't very much enjoyed whatever they had. It just means that if we're going to put "factual" statements on here (as opposed to our impressions, preferences, likes, dislikes etc, which are subjective, but valid), there should be some effort made to make sure the "facts" are accurate. Below is what I originally wrote. "Doesn't it strike people (perhaps not) that there is one heck of a lot of 100 year old balsamico around. How is that possible? Let's see... there had to be immense barrels of the initial batch because over 100 years the liquid would have to have evaporated substantially, if not totally. Then you have the question as to who would have had the foresight in 1906 to keep balsamico that long. In 1926, did all those people who were making balsamico say to themselves "aha, if we keep this for another 80 years, Americans will develope a taste for it, even though they don't know what balsamico is, and they will pay big bucks for even tiny drops of it? What happened to the 100 year old balsamico in its 36th. year, 1942, when the area was in German hands? Did it remain in the acetaie untouched? If you talk to the most reputable and famous restaurant owners in a 50 km. radius of Modena, you will hear the laughter when you talk about 100 year old balsamico. If it existed (and no one can prove it one way or the other) they would have had a chance to buy it and would have done so. It's a bit like the 200 plus year old Bordeaux that President Jefferson purportedly had bottled (with his initials on the bottle). Or, to take a topic closer to our hearts... Alba truffles in early September. As the Swiss Chef said so well about truffles in general... the best place to get them is Moncalvo, because too much of what is sold in Alba comes from other places. I would add that many of those places don't happen to be in Italy."

it is very thick but once it hits the parm it soaks in!! it was unbelivable! we brought back 30 year old stuff and serve it the same way ← Wendy, did you happen to note which Acetaia the 100yo balsamico was from? When my son and I were given some 100y/o balsamico to taste at Acetaia del Cristo, it was one of the highlights of our trip - truly wonderful stuff. ← Doesn't it strike people (perhaps not) that there is one heck of a lot of 100 year old balsamico around. How is that possible? Let's see... there had to be immense barrels of the initial batch because over 100 years the liquid would have to have evaporated substantially, if not totally. Then you have the question as to who would have had the foresight in 1906 to keep balsamico that long. In 1926, did all those people who were making balsamico say to themselves "aha, if we keep this for another 80 years, Americans will develope a taste for it, even though they don't know what balsamico is, and they will pay big bucks for even tiny drops of it? What happened to the 100 year old balsamico in its 36th. year, 1942, when the area was in German hands? Did it remain in the acetaie untouched? If you talk to the most reputable and famous restaurant owners in a 50 km. radius of Modena, you will hear the laughter when you talk about 100 year old balsamico. If it existed (and no one can prove it one way or the other) they would have had a chance to buy it and would have done so. It's a bit like the 200 plus year old Bordeaux that President Jefferson purportedly had bottled (with his initials on the bottle). Or, to take a topic closer to our hearts... Alba truffles in early September. As the Swiss Chef said so well about truffles in general... the best place to get them is Moncalvo, because too much of what is sold in Alba comes from other places. I would add that many of those places don't happen to be in Italy.

Thanks. Now I understand. The kale we get in Tuscany is dinosaur kale. Cavolo nero, by the way, just means kale in my part of Tuscany.

yeap, basically the Tuscan Kale (Cavollo Nero) costs about $3.99 a bunch, the regular kale was on sale, 2 bunches for $2.99 AND it was in a much better condition than the pricier one (looked fresher, the leaves nice and perky...). So I went with regular kale. ← I don't understand. What is the difference between the "regular kale" and the "Tuscan kale"?

Just out of curiosity... when you say "She asks for Cavollo Negro of course, but the regular organic kale was on sale at Whole Foods and looked in a much better shape than it's much more pricy Cavollo cousin", what exactly is the pricy Cavollo cousin (sic) that you are referring to?

Canticcini? What is that?

Ciao Fortedei. What's your take on why the restaurant/hotel business is so off? Just curious what you think, I don't think its just economic reasons. ← Again, I was referring to "high end" restaurants and hotels... high end meaning expensive. From what I've in the past five and a half months in Italy and heard anecdotally from friends of mine who are in that group of restaurants, there are fewer and fewer Italians willing to spend 150 plus euros per person on a meal EXCEPT for important business occasions (where bella figura is key) or special family occasions (if I may disagree with you a bit... I think a lot of it has to do with business conditions in Italy which are not good). Much of the business in these places is from foreigners and at the margin there were fewer of them this year than last, not only Americans, but the Germans and British as well. From what I've heard, the hotel business in keys resorts was off not just a little this year, but very substantially. It was very noticeable in the town I live in, both in THE restaurant (the only really expensive one in town) and in the hotel traffic of the four very upscale hotels.

The Gambero Rosso came out yesterday. All the usual suspects. In order:Gambero Rosso,Vissani,La Pergola, Pescatore, Calandre, Cracco Peck, Don Alfonso, Pinchiorri, Saracino, Laite, Madonnina del Pescatore, Perbellini, Antonello Colonna. Good list for foreigners to go to. The Tre Gamberi list is fantastic. Good list for Italians to go to. The hotel and restaurant business is facing tough times in Italy. Many restaurateurs are complaining (bitterly). Quite easy to get a table at what were in the past "difficult reservations." Business at upscale hotels was very poor this past year. Interesting times!

Don't know the amount, but it will wind up, back and forth, a good percentage of your meal. Piemonte is very deceptive. Everything looks close on the map, but the windy roads prove deceptive regarding distance. Why are you going to Cesare when there are so many other better places to eat? Eating at Da Renzo twice, in my opinion, is far better than eating there once and once at Cesare.

You can always get to Da Renzo or Cesare or any other place by taxi from Alba, and it is probably possible to get the taxi to come back(or have the restaurant call you one), but it will cost you very dearly. Your car is by far the best way to get around. If I were you, I would use Alba as the base and take day trips by car to visit e.g. Barolo or La Morra (with the great Sol LeWitt capella in the Ceretto vineyard; a must see). Alba is a wonderful walking town and it happens to be centered nicely to the areas around it where you might like to go

For the salad of peppers, capers and tomatoes, are the peppers grilled first, or just raw? That sounds really good right now, because peppers and tomatoes are in season (but not porcini or peas). thanks, trillium ← the peppers are grilled first

we use it with grilled porcini; in a frittata; with peas; in a salad of peppers, capers and tomatoes

Mentuccia instead of origano? Boy, we must be from very different parts of Toscana, if you believe you can substitute mentuccia for origano in any recipe.

You can't get scampi, cannoce etc., not vongole verace (or vongole arselle), for one simple reason. The much colder water of the Atlantic is very different from the warmer waters of the Mediterranean and Adriatic. Therefore, the seafood is different. That's the explanation.

tomato salad at Christmas?

Sorry, but I think Silvano Bugialli version is his version (by the way he is unknown in Italy), I have always heard of fried eggplants, maybe to unmold gives a better presentation. Both Italians and Spaniards use meat and chocolate: what about cinghiale (or rabbit or game) in dolce e forte ← A few things. Silvano Bugialli might be unknown in Italy. In fact, who is Silvano Bugialli? Guliano Bugialli, however, is very well known, particularly in his native Tuscany, but perhaps not in the south. The other thing about Bugialli, is that he has spent an inordinate amount of time, doing original research, something that is very seldom done in the food world. When he talks about the history of the dish, this is not being made up. It is based on research done in libraries (and on the ground). nothing has been made up. His knowledge about the historical aspect of Italian cuisine is among the very best in Italy. He also happens to be a great cooking teacher (having started giving lessons in Florence when there were no other cooking schools in Italy for foreigners) and a wonderful person.

when are you going?

Cauliflower is usually called cavolfiore in Sicily. It can also be called broccolo' (and I'm sure other names in local dialects ). Pasta chi vruccoli is made with cauliflower.

The size of clams has nothing to do with flavor and it is a misnomer to make a blanket statement like that. Sometimes arselle have more flavor than vongole verace, sometimes the verace do. It depends on where they are fished (or in the case of arselle, where they are dug out of the sand), the day they are fished, the tides, myriad different things. One only has to go to Bagno _ in Forte, and have spaghetti con le arselle or spaghetti con vongole verace, to see how things change day to day.

Another wonderful review (and great photo of the shack) in this month's Viaggi E Sappori.

Hathor: I tried the direct link from my post above--it works from here. But here is the actual URL: http://chef_in_italy.livejournal.com/ ← I've tried the link a few different ways, including copy and paste, and I get an error that says Invalid URL. Must be because I'm in Italy!! Our group was much younger...mostly in their early 20's...but I still beat them up the stairs. Most days! ← No problem getting on the link from Toscana