Sneakeater

She started being a vegetarian (eventually moving on to veganism) in her early teens. So this is going to be the first meat she's had in, like, seventeen years. And it's serious meat to boot. So she's worried about how eating this meat might affect her, um, composure. Accordingly, she suggests we eat late and do the, um, intimate segment of the date before rather than after dinner. So I make the latest reservation possible at Wolfgang's (this is a weeknight). Nevertheless, as often happens, we sort of lose track of time during the, um, intimate segment of the date. By the time we realize what time it is, it's, like, five or ten minutes before our reservation -- and we don't want to be very late because they'd already extended us the courtesy of accepting an extremely late reservation from us, later than they normally like to seat anyone. So we rush over. We're in such a rush to get out that my date doesn't bother to put on any underwear, just throwing on a little black dress. We're late, and Wolfgang's (Luger's epigone that it is) has a reputation for waiter gruffness. So I'm kind of apprehensive about what kind of reception we're going to get as we stroll in seconds before the kitchen is supposed to be closing. Well, I'll tell you this. Waiters at Wolfgang's might normally be gruff. But if you want to get the most attentive, solicitous, nice service you could ever imagine, go there with (or as) a very beautiful young woman, wearing a little black dress with nothing underneath, who can say that this is the first time she's eating meat since she was a girl. They'll be eating out of your hand.

Queen of Sheeba?

I don't want to be presumptuous, but I hope that next time I'm in BA -- and given my horrible current work schedule, it probably won't be anytime soon -- we can all go out for steak to someplace you guys think is great.

I am a serious carnivore who has dated a lactose-intolerant (not that it matters because she also was a) vegan. We have had great success at DB Bistro Moderne (right by your hotel), where they have always been happy to put together a well-assembled steamed vegetable plate for my date while serving me whatever kinds of hyper-fatty meats I cared to order. Farther from your hotel, we have had the same experience at Perry Street and also 5 Ninth. (It's always a good idea to warn them in advance of your situation, at the time you make your reservation.) Someday I'll tell you all about our experience at Wolfgang's, after months of watching me gleefully eat meat made her realize she was denying herself too much pleasure.

I agree with you 100%, saltshaker. I would never recommend only the most expensive places to anyone. I agree with you about the importance of having less expensive, more characteristic experiences. All I'm saying is that there are places I'd put in the mix for someone to whom expense isn't a consideration that I wouldn't necessarily push to others. Remember the context in which I made my regrettable remarks: my misunderstanding that you were telling visitors to avoid Las Lilas ONLY on grounds of price. I.e., not that you were saying that one could do better on grounds of absolute quality, but only that they charge too much. If I understood you correctly to begin with -- and it was my fault that I didn't -- I'd never have said that stuff.

Why Lutece Is Important To Me I started eating in Lutece in the 80s, when I started being a lawyer and started having some discretionary income. The big thing then was the New American Cookery. Taking off of French Nouvelle Cuisine, it centered on unexpected combinations of ingredients (one of them often being a fruit). Original plating also became important. Dishes had to be intellectually stimulating and surprising, and unlike anything you'd seen before. So the first time I ate at Lutece, I couldn't see what the big deal was. There wasn't a single dish on the menu that was "different" from what I'd seen before. The food provided nothing to think about at all. I had to go a few times before I got it. This wasn't food to "think"'; this was food to eat. The ingredients were great. The preparation was faultless. Just about everything was the very best version of what it was that you could imagine. The roast chicken, for example, could send you into paroxysms of joy. And it was just roast chicken. Nothing tricked-up about it at all. I think this is notable because we're in another period now where everyone expects cuisine to be "interesting". But now, there's really nowhere like Lutece to counterbalance it. There are lower-level places that are simple -- Landmarc, the Blue Ribbons, even Blaue Gans. But (unless you count Brasserie LCB, which is somehow different) there isn't an ultra-haute place serving impeccably prepared traditional food. (Del Posto also is different -- not the least because of that "impeccably prepared".) (Maybe Daniel is closest. But it's different, too.) Lutece taught me a lot about different ways of appreciating cuisine. It was immeasurably important to what I laughingly refered to as my culinary development. And once I learned to appreciate it, I loved going there more than I can say.

Every time somebody revives this thread, I feel compelled to repeat Lutece.

I think it's what Nathan said: a lot of people don't even KNOW about the lunch "deal" at JG. I have a feeling it's because when the place first opened, Nougatine got a decent amount of publicity as the part of the restaurant that serves a cheaper lunch. There's never been that much publicity for the modestly-priced lunch at JG proper -- even though many of us would say it's probably the best dining value in New York City.

I think Nathan is absolutely right about this. You might even be surprised at how "famous" lunch at Nougatine is as a good deal -- even though, when you think about it for more than a minute, lunch at JG is a better deal.

That's undoubtedly true. But I STILL can't remember ever not being offered a refill at a "fine dining" restaurant. (Oh. Customer's perspective, obviously.)

You all remember that famous Folger's commercial with Andre Soltner?

Absolutely expected. I'd be shocked if it were ever even an issue. But it isn't. I can't remember ever not being offered a refill at a "fine" restaurant.

I don't want to belabor this, but only because I don't want to offend anyone: I live in New York. When someone visiting from Europe asks for restaurant recommendations, I give them a different list than I do to someone who lives here. Because I know that certain places that are a stretch for us locals are, because of favorable exchange rates, much more affordable to the visitors. In other words, when recommending restaurants to visiting Europeans, I pretty much take expense out of the equation, because I know they'll be spending "cheap" money. I'd recommend places to them that I'd have to caution my fellow locals cost a lot. I don't see myself as insulting myself, or my fellow New Yorkers, when I do that. If you guys in BA feel differently, I really apologize. I love your city and certainly don't want to insult you.

I think you should consider Sugiyama and Shimizu, if you don't want to go to Totto.

I'll bet they'd be gobsmacked if anyone tried to wear trainers in the dining room.

Interestingly, the guy at Bloomberg who isn't Alan Richman has recently discussed how the $78 three-course prix fixe at Gilt is a relative bargain: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...olumnist_usdine

Hey maybe we can all sit in the bar and watch.

According to Grub Street, the woman who ran D'ohr An has opened up an izakaya in that space. It's one of those credentialed-chefs-do-vernacular-cookery type places, which always makes me suspicious (it usually seems to translate into higher-prices-for-blander-food), but when you're shut out of Tia Pol next door . . . .

It's just funny that it's so obviously responsive, but nobody mentioned it till now. (Not to take anything away from your achievement, of course.)

Virgil's is a really good idea, actually.

It's the "traditions" that are precisely the most nefarious form of racism and sexism. It's easy to deal with the truly evil people operating on the basis of irrational hatred. What's harder to deal with are the perfectly nice people operating on the basis of unexamined assumptions -- which are just as harmful as the unmitigated evil.

I don't know what your budget is, but if it can go a bit high you might think about Bar Americain. I've had decent food at Osteria al Doge (unless I'm thinking of Tratorria del Teatro). The problem is, of course, that we're the exact wrong people to ask about this. PS -- Won't the raw fish at Esca (BY FAR the best place on your list) disturb your coworkers?

From what I read on Eater, Julia Moskin has come up with a review subject so pointless that it makes any disputes about Da Silvano v. Red Cat moot.

Actually, for some of us, a fifty/fifty split is closer to a proper Martini than the usual whiff-of-vermouth you get.

(Totto is my favorite, too. The only thing wrong with it is that it's so crowded, I can never eat there.)