jesskidden

He didn't say the "Berliner Kindl *Weisse*"- he meant, I take it, the pils from Berliner Kindl - http://www.berliner-kindl.de/ - "Berliner Kindl" being the name of the brewery- or, at least, the former name of the brewery- the parent company merged it with it's former rival, Schultheiss , so now it's the officially the Berliner-Kindl-Schultheiss-Brauerei. And, unfortunately, the Weisse is no longer exported to the US, so if you know of a supply, pick it up before someone else (like me <g>) finds it.

I would think temperature control is going to be a more difficult problem brewing in the apartment building you've described than aroma. I find that the actual "brewing" scents are quite nice- grain-y and sweet- and can think of a lot of normal food/cooking smells that are a lot more annoying (hey, I like cabbage and I like bacon, but I'll take smelling hops over having those aromas lingering in the stairway any day). And, with an airlock, fermenting wort gives off very little smell unless one is standing right over the fermenter. I recall explaining homebrewing to a co-worker many years ago and he said, "Man, but your house must smell like a brewery!" "YEAH!", I exclaimed. (Altho', when most people say "smell like a brewery", they actually mean smell like a bar- old beer and (formerly) stale cigarette smoke. Breweries smell *GOOD*!)

"What Beers Did I Drink ... Yesterday?" I don't know! (Well, I didn't last night). I had spent the day working in the yard, drinking Pilsner Urquell, so after a shower and getting ready to view some TV I decided on something stronger. Went through the "big bottle" shelf in the beer 'frig, thinking I had some of Ommegang's beers or some Belgians in there but could only find a Rare Vos ("too much alcohol", I decided) and lots of imperial stouts and other big beers. Then, WAY in the back, I pulled out a bottle without a label, w/(imitation) cork & wire closure. No reading glasses, so I couldn't even see if there was an insignia on the metal top or writing on the cork. "Well," I thought, "this seems like the perfect beer when nothing else seems to be right." Popped the cork, poured into a Chimay goblet (thinking it was a Belgian or US version of same). "Hmm...". No head at all. Served much to cold (back of 'frig, set at 45). No 'funky' flavors but lots of others going on ... what is this stuff?... reminds me of a DogfishHead product. I have some early release 90 Minute IPA in champagne bottles in the cellar but don't remember any upstairs. Searched the shelves this morning and finally found the label- Old School Barleywine. Wow, it aged quite nicely (saves for the lack of much carbonation)- certainly didn't "feel" like a 15% beer last night...

I don't think either one is "officially" exported from Australia to the US currently. VB is a product of Foster's and, for a time, was available in the US (as an "oil can" and in bottles IIRC) but I can't remember whether it was contract-brewed in Canada (like Fosters) or came from Aust. Can't say I've seen it recently but, then, I don't look for those sorts of beers. Castlemaine XXXX was, for a time, (late 80's - mid-90's ?) contract-brewed for the US market by Coors (it was mostly found at Outback Steakhouse) but I think that contract ended as well. Not a lot of beer imported from Australia to the US- the only ones I bother with are Cooper's. Many of their "industrial light lagers" (even those mis-named "bitter") seem to come and go in this market, other than Foster's (which, ironically, is much bigger in the US and Europe than in it's home country).

Sam Adams Utopias is only bottled every other year, and in relatively small quantities (in 2005 they did 8000 bottles). Last thing I read (someone quoted from a e-mail response from BBC), they plan on bottling the 2007 edition during the "Holiday Season". If you do find some 2005 on the shelf, it's usually going for well above the original suggested retail price.

In 1976, I drove a truck in the LA metro area for a living. Had an early morning delivery and tried the then-new (to me, at least) McDonald's Egg McMuffin meal, complete with styrofoam-like disc of "hash brown potatoes" and tasteless-but-too-hot-to-drink coffee. Last year, driving to the Finger Lakes from NJ in the early morning, I tried it again. I think once every 30 years is about right for this "food"- tho' I am somewhat distressed at the idea that I still may be alive in 2036 to have one in my mid-80's... ("Hey, this sandwich tastes just like the one I had in '06- in fact, it tastes like it may have been COOKED alongside the one I had then!") Give me a good Jersey diner breakfast special any day. Fresh cooked-to-order eggs, home fries, toast, coffee and juice- served on real plates and cups, with real silverware, unlimited coffee refills, sitting in a comfortable booth or stool, instead of a prison-like plastic seat. And probably cheaper, too.

This stuff doesn't get the underground "press" that Kosher Coke gets, so I've never bothered to search it out. But my wife (who's a Pepsi addict) noticed the bottle she bought the other day had a white cap and saw that it was Kosher, i.e., sugar , not HFCS. So, it was out there but probably going fast. (Had a "Best By" date of JUN 07- and was probably bought in Middlesex County, NJ).

A beer made with adjuncts! <g> Basically, an "adjunct" in brewing is a grain other than barley that's used to supply part of the fermentable sugars during brewing. In the US, these are usually corn (in various forms- syrup, flakes, grits, etc) and/or rice. They are used to "lighten" the beer, but, historically were first used because of difficulty with brewing all-malt beers with US native "6 row" barley. Today, their use is considered "cheapening" the process but, at times, brewer's rice cost MORE than barley (and corn, with all it's uses, is getting expensive, too). Most US "light lagers" from the pre-craft beer era are brewed with adjuncts, usually making up 20-40% of the grains. Brewers that use rice (think Budweiser)often stress it's superiority(in their view) over corn. Some brewers adjust the recipe based on current prices and might only say "selected grains" on the label (soybeans have been used at times, as well, as has sorghum). Technically speaking, oats and wheat are also "adjuncts" but, given the negative connotation that comes with "adjunct beer", beers that use them aren't seen as "lesser" beers and aren't lumped into that grouping.

Well, technically the Latrobe Brewery didn't close- it's parent company, InBev, simply sold the brand names ("Rolling Rock" and "Latrobe Brewing Company") to Anheuser-Busch and the physical brewing plant to City Brewing of Lacrosse WI (in the top 10, but mostly a mid-Western brewer with a LOT of production involved in non-beer beverages and contract brews). Rolling Rock, like just about every US beer before the craft brewing boom, was always an adjunct-beer and, for a time at least, listed both "rice" and "corn" on the label. I'm sure A-B can do a very good job duplicating the flavor of Rolling Rock but there are many "political" reasons to avoid the beer (I've been boycotting A-B, Miller and Coors for 3 decades or so now and I ain't thirsty). I sure hope pallets of A-B/RR sit in the beer distributorships of Western PA wasting away, going stale and skunky. City brews some "clone" beers from it's previous incarnation as the lead brewery of Heileman- City and Lacrosse, which are supposedly basically Old Style and Special Export. Too bad City can't bring out a "Latrobe Extra Pale Lager" or a "33 Extra Pale Lager" (yeah, I know, already a French/Vietnamese beer by that name...) but A-B has a lot of lawyers and they aren't afraid to use 'em...

Picked a few bottles up at the Freehold (NJ) Foodtown. No sign or separate display this year, just "yellow caps" mixed in amongst the HFCS stuff (but, all Coke products were on sale, so it was worth the search and bottle shuffling). Interesting article on Kosher Coke (tho' nothing new really- same old claim by Coca-Cola that it doesn't taste any different)- perhaps the most interesting thing is that it's in a UK paper (where, as noted, all Coke has sugar). Perhaps Big Brother Coke suppresses the story in the US media<g>. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2037084,00.html

Sadly and for whatever reason, not any more: "We no longer use oysters to brew this beer. " http://www.yardsbrewing.com/ales.html I'd wanted to try a real oyster stout for years, so I was happy when Love Stout appears (altho' the "oyster" was very elusive, I found). But, with so much else to drink, I only bought one sixpack (maybe it was only a 4 pack?) and now it's gone...

Hmmm... As someone with a touch of agoraphobia, I usually pass on these shows - one of the last ones I went to was outdoors, so I should have been alright other than the fact that "waiting on line" is a main feature of these things. But it was a hot muggy day, so being surrounded by a bunch of almost grown-up former frat guys on a "boy's day out" that featured a lot of cigar smoking (and, since being in a queue, one can't simply walk away to avoid the stench) I said 'Never Again' and I've pretty much given up on them. I toyed with going to this Philly show but balked at the price- $40, plus $10 for parking AND they were charging $10 for a non-drinking, "Designated Driver" ticket (altho', apparently it was easy for these "non-drinkers" to get served, at 1/4 the price). My suspicions were confirmed, as noted in these two long threads: http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read/950612 http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read/952648 Perhaps, being a volunteer is the way to go at these things, since you're unambiguously positive review sure doesn't agree with most of them.

Seems like Rheingold has been "reborn" several times by several different "entrepreneurs". While the idea probably sounds like a "sure thing" to someone outside of the brewing industry, ("Gee, look at all these wacky new beers on the market. They must be selling like hotcakes but I don't recognize any of these names. I bet an OLD famous brand would really take off!"), very few have survived and thrived. It's been tried a number of times- currently Narragansett in NE, Champagne Velvet in IN, Reading in PA, Weidenmeyer in NJ, Huerich in DC (the beer’s since been renamed “Foggy Bottom”), etc. Failed attempts in NH with Frank Jones, Ortlieb’s in PA, Sheridan in MT (IIRC), etc. Maybe North Coast's Acme line is the exception but I don't really think Acme is being marketed to or bought by old Acme beer drinkers. The new Narrangansett's supposedly doing OK in New England but time will tell. It seems to me that most of the old regional brewers lost their market and their loyal fans to the Big 5 (eventually the Big 3) long ago and that's a big part of WHY they went under in the first place. And most beer drinkers (both BMC-ers and the new micro fans) STILL love to redicule the little local and regionals, whether they still exist or not. If you make a good, all malt pre-Prohibition "new" version of a beer, you'll certainly get a response of "that ain't what XXXXXX beer used to taste like!" from the old-timers (who've been drinking Miller Lite for the past two decades anyway). Make a typical "American industrial light lager" and...well, what's the point? (Besides learning that A-B has better advertising than some start-up outfit.) And that seems to be what this coming new version from Drinks America (marketer of Trump Vodka!) of Rheingold http://www.drinksamericas.com/brands/rhein.htm seems to be- less calories than Corona? Oh, boy.... A lot of the Rheingold promo material is not just "nostalgia" based, but nostalgia for the Miss Rheingold Contest, not even the beer itself. Take a look at the book "Great American Beers- 12 Brands That Became Icons"- the Rheingold chapter is mostly about the contest. Now I'm in the minority of most of craft beer drinkers in that I still do miss *some* of those old beers- Rheingold on tap (rare in it's adopted home state of NJ by the 70's when I started getting into beer) WAS a lot richer and creamier than Bud (hey, I liked Schaefer draft, too <g>- 25 cents a glass- put down a dollar and you could get 2 glasses, play three games of pinball and still leave a quarter tip). I remember walking into an "old man's bar" near Rutgers University in the early 70's, getting a lot of stares (long hair and all that...) but ignored them when I saw three tap handles- all Rheingold!- and broke out into a big grin. I could take or leave the bottles (well, the Chug-a-Mug was fun package) tho' I still have nostalgic feelings for Rheingold out of New Bedford MA that we bought in 16 oz. deposit bottles that came in plastic bag 6 packs, that we'd keep cool in the bay as we built a cabin in Maine one summer. And the Rheingold brewed McSorley's was a real nice rare find on draft and was one of the best US ales when they finally started bottling it again in the 70's. (The current version owned by Pabst is nothing like the "real" thing.)

Brooklyn's Black "Chocolate" Stout is named after the chocolate-like flavor & color it develops from the combination of malts used (one of which is called "Chocolate Malt", roasted to color of chocolate). I suppose you have to add it to the other stout types like: Oyster Stouts (some do, some don't contain oysters) Milk/Cream/Sweet Stouts (some do, some don't contain lactose)

Miller 'ruined' Lowenbrau by contract brewing it in Texas (and other Miller facilities), which began back in the 70's. The contract was voluntarily undertaken by the Lowenbrau Brewery (no reports of a gun to their heads or anything) and some say it was done because Lowenbrau wanted to brew an adjunct version of their beer for export but couldn't get the law changed in Germany. Altho' it was, even then, pretty much a standard "industrial light lager". The short-lived Canadian Lowenbrau seemed to be an interim product and came AFTER the Miller contract ended a few years ago now(Both Labatt and Lowenbrau are InBev brands and are imported by Labatt USA, another Inbev company). IIRC, Lowenbrau's now owned by crosstown rival Spaten (in turn, owned by InBev) so Lowenbrau is now just another of the dozens of brands in the InBev portfolio and is not one of their "global brands" (Stella Atois and Becks are their main Euro-pils), so it's probably on the back burner. One would imagine, any decision on Lowenbrau Dark is made in their corporate offices, not by reviewing 20 year old sales data from Miller. Not that I think Miller's product are good or am sticking up for them- just want to get the blame distributed correctly to all the guilty parties on this one <g>.

I had a Molson "ice" the other day. ugh ← "Ice!" I forgot the "Ice" fad. IIRC, it came from Canada (home of all frozen things <g>) and, well, it WAS based, however loosely, on the valid "Eisbock" technique of Germany. The part I liked about was when A-B came out with some, they added water BACK to the beers after the ice was removed, to bring the alcohol level back down. Huh? ← It was my understanding from reading The Brewmaster's Table that megabrewed "ice beers" were just a marketing gimmick... Since macro ice beers don't have any more alcohol content than a normal macrobrew, I don't think they freeze the beer which is the critical step in making an eisbier. ← Well, one brewer's "gimmick" is another brewer's most successful new brand. <g> I'd guess it can be both. Oliver doesn't imply that the macrobrewers that were selling Ice beers *weren't" really freezing and removing some ice, only that the resulting beers ("inspired" by eisbock, even according to the book) were in no way true to style nor did they taste much different than the "regular" beers from their breweries. Here's Labatt's version of their Ice Beer: "Labatt Ice, introduced in 1993, was the world’s first Ice Brewed™ beer and the most successful new brand introduction in Canadian brewing history. Labatt Ice is a fully fermented liquid, chilled to approximately -4°C until ice crystals are formed and removed." (And, in this case, the beer does have more alcohol- 5.6% vs. 5% for regular Labatt.) A-B still markets Bud Ice, Bud Light Ice, Natural Ice and Busch Ice and that's the company I recall stating that they then added water BACK to the brew, to bring it back down to a more normal ABV, tho' they're still higher than the regular beer (5.5-5.9% vs. 4.6-5%- according to the Beer Advocate stats), quite a bit more in the case of the Busch beers but nothing like 12% of Aventinus or Kulmbacher's 9.2%. I've never read anything to suggest that the macros aren't really freezing their ice beers and the Feds aren't always happy with misleading statements on beer labels and they're in the breweries and they check.

I had a Molson "ice" the other day. ugh ← "Ice!" I forgot the "Ice" fad. IIRC, it came from Canada (home of all frozen things <g>) and, well, it WAS based, however loosely, on the valid "Eisbock" technique of Germany. The part I liked about was when A-B came out with some, they added water BACK to the beers after the ice was removed, to bring the alcohol level back down. Huh? Never had the Miller and don't get the Leinkugel in NJ (yet- but it's coming- I see their Lemon flavored stuff now.) I'm not saying that all the "fad" styles were ONLY fads, with no redeeming value. One of my favorite fads (pre-micro era) was when Genesee Cream Ale took off in the Northeast and we started getting a number of out of the area Cream Ales (Blatz and Little Kings), some older ales were "reborn" -Utica Club, Red Cap, Neuweiler Cream Ale, Tiger Head Ale, McSorley's (Cream) Ale (which hadn't been bottled in many years at that point) and some other breweries dipped their feet into the hybrid waters (Falstaff had a Ballantine Cream Ale for a time, Schaefer came out with one, etc.). And the best part- many were a lot better than the inspiration (Genesee CA) at least for "ale" drinkers who wanted hops.

Well, the mega breweries are always quick to jump on any gimmick in such a competitive industry where 1/10 of 1% of market share is worth fighting for. The "organic" thing seems to be at least aimed at an existing sub-segment of the market. It's no more annoying than the "flavored beer", "malternative" "real draft", "light/lite", "dry", "bran", "low carb", "low alcohol", "red", "sorghum", "imitation Mexican" fads of the past few decades, several of which ("real draft" for one) have come and gone several times. Heck, some of them have even attempted to brew good beer at one time or another (results and acceptance have varied).

Well, Miller is the current owner/marketer/brewer of the Steel Reserve, Mickey's Big Mouth and Olde English 800 lines (the latter, a longtime product of Blitz-Weinhard*), so they got the alcohol part down <g>. Altho', I thought Full Sail only make *some* of the Weinhard brands on a contract basis for SABMiller (perhaps so they can still use the "brewed in Pacific Northwest" tag line)? It's a real sin that the 3 old breweries in the PNW- B-W, Rainier and Olympia are gone after that late 90's round of mergermania, seems like a such a hotbed of brewing would have allowed some micro or collective of micros to purchase and maintain those old plants, even if it meant not running to capacity. * Speaking Olde English 800 (which began, oddly enough, as Olde English 600- where'd the other 200 come from?), I was reading the first edition of MJ Pocket Guide to Beer the other day (1982) and OE800 was the strongest beer brewed in the US at the time, at 7.5% abv (altho', Ballantine India Pale Ale matched it). 7 and 1/2? Ain't that a "session beer" in this modern beer age?

Yeah, I was part of that mess of a thread and, in my best "Sgt. Friday- just the facts, ma'am" tried to get past the rumors and misinformation and went to the source- Dr. Brown is owned by Canada Dry which in turn is now owned by the huge multinational Cadbury-Schweppes- which is also the Dr. Pepper/7 Up owner. http://www.cadburyschweppes.com/EN/Brands/ So, with a stable of brands like that, Dr. Brown is way down on their list of priorities (you'll be hard pressed to even find a mention of the brand in all the clicking around you can do there). Basically, any supermarket that carries any of the Dr. Brown sodas CAN order Cel-Ray, but, it's not a big seller, so they tend to drop it. And, in my experience, when a product disappears from the shelves, many retailers are quick to say "We can't get it" or "they don't make it anymore", since that's, well, easier. As GG says, Wegman's in NJ seems to have the best selection of Dr. Brown's and, in my experience (Manalapan and Princeton stores) they ALWAYS have Cel-Ray in stock in their large Kosher section (tucked into a corner along with other "Ethnic" foods), not in their general soda pop aisles.

You know, when I read about her book and the negative reaction it was getting from some especially rabid microbrewing fans, I *hoped* it would be a good book that shattered some of the myths about American beer that've become di rigeur. I first got into beer and brewing history in the 1970's and found that while mis-information and word of mouth rumors/urban legends were plentiful, factual information was hard to come by. Now, with dozens of books in prints (some good, some sloppy) it's amazing to me that this new generation of beer drinkers have their own myths (...if I read somebody say that "... Budweiser is made with rice and should be considered saki..." one more time I might just DRINK my first Bud in 30 years...). But, I agree, Ogle's book is just as narrow minded in some respects. A variation of the expression "History is written by the winners" kept going through my mind as I read it, since she certainly concentrated on the handful of brewers who survived in the US from the mid-1800's until the 1970-80's "beer wars", regardless of the size or influence of that brewery at any given time. Miller, for one, was a very small player for much of that time (up until Philip Morris' purchase of them), yet it is featured in the book. On the other hand, once huge brewers like Ehret (#1 in 1870's, when A-B didn't even make the top 20), Falstaff, Heileman, Ballantine (#4 in 1870, #3 in the 1950's) were ignored, seemingly because they did "fit" into the neat history of US brewing she decided upon. In Ballantine's case, she mentioned the brewery only in passing to ridicule a 1950's ad she thought "goofy" because the drinkers of the ale were obviously upper middle class, ignoring both Ballantine's stated desire to appeal to an upscale market AND the fact that just about every other beer print ad (indeed, every consumer product in any LOOK LIFE or POST magazine of the era) featured the same "upscale" characters. I do think she did a good job with explanation the evolution of adjunct brewing in the US, but I think she bought the concept that "brewers were forced to market lighter and lighter beers due to consumer demand" without much debate. (Her descriptions of US beers that didn't fit that standard- beers that she and no one living ever tasted- are almost hilarious). It's an interesting "chicken-or-egg" question, and one that can't really be factually decided. Her coverage on the rise of Anchor and then the microbrewery movement was pretty complete, tho', it too, is mostly a "winners" story and she again ridicules any beers or breweries that didn't make it- as if US consumerism and capitalism isn't complex but simply that the best product always wins, and the losers must have lost only because of a bad beer. (She mentions that one of the first micros in the East, Newman's in Albany, and dismisses the beer as having had a shelf life of "about a week" - WITHOUT mentioning the fact that Newman's beer was a natural draft-only product, packaged in plastic "cube-a-tainers"). She stresses that she is a "historian" but seems to accept any written source as gospel, without question. I particularly like this quote about post-Prohibition beer: "When some Los Angeles residents became ill after drinking bottled beer, the county Health Dept. seized and quarantined the suspect products. Test revealed that much of the brew had been bottled right out of the keg, without being pasteurized or treated with preservatives." Wha? I suppose I should not have expected much as soon as I read the dust jacket flap calling it "...the first ever history of American beer...". HUH? Um, didn't the publisher even read their author's own bibliography? And, I'd say the book is more a general history of the large US breweries, rather than "beer" itself. An interesting interview with the author can be found here: http://www.beerbasics.com/Ogle.htm

Dunno why, but any beer with 'Golden' in it always gets my taste buds purring long before tasting. ← Even this one? http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/On_Hiatus_...er/43/index.htm I don't know, I'm sorta getting burned out on the cute/goofy brand names, complete with cartoon characters, that a lot of the micros here in the US give their beers ( tho' in this case, I think DFH was using it ironically to further the concept of the "true pilsner without advertising"). Do these people really think a dog on the label or wacky name is going to get me to buy the beer, with no other knowledge of it? I've got to say that I sometimes buy these beers IN SPITE of the name.

Try one of the large "Asian" food markets that dot the state. They often have an entire aisle of cheap, no nonsense Chinese and Indian cookware, both stainless and aluminum (and, for woks- steel). I miss Odd Job, too. Sure they carried a lot of junk (especially near the end, when they were carrying a lot of dollar store stuff, with pre-printed Odd Job price tags on it, so you know it was made to sell cheap). But, they carried a lot of true odd lot stuff, name brands, often with national retailers' price stickers still attached. Big Lots (not too many in NJ, tho') isn't too bad- better than the dollar stores and that Amazing Savings outfit that bought Odd Job and eventually went bankrupt itself.

Lodge, one of the (if not "THE" ) last US manufacturers of cast iron cookware (and they have a huge selection of styles, and great prices - as long as you're not paying shipping) has recently added some enameled items. A strange selection of styles to start with (other than the dutch ovens- but those "Apple" things? ) and, oddly, for such a traditional company, a rather stylish handle on the lids. (Notice they mention using "Imported from France" enamel ). So, if you're not crazy about the price for the Le Crueset but would rather not buy the knock-off Chinese-made (by kids) stuff, there still is a Made-in-the-US alternative- a very rare thing these days. (Amazon prices on Lodge are much better than their list price- and you qualify for free shipping, too, on most items). http://www.lodgemfg.com/ Click on both "Enamel Ware" and "Color". I once drove to Flemington to buy a set of Le Crueset but just couldn't part with that kind of cash (and that was 20+ years ago and I had a good paying job). Wound up buying a German made set of enamelware (over steel)- Asta from Fissler- I really liked the stuff, but eventually the white interior turned yellow and was full of scratches. Never chipped, tho', since they had a nice stainless steel band around the lip AND you could use the lids as pans, as well. (But, you had to get a metric set of Allen wrenches to re-tighten the handles occassionally). Replaced it with US made- Magnalite (similar to Calphalon), but I'm not really all that crazy about anonidized aluminum for some things. Now have a combination of Lodge, Le Crueset, Magnalite, Asta & Calphalon- "Hmmm...which pan/pot should I use for this dish... "

Those mugs are based on the original design of the Victor Company, which made heavy insulators found on telephone poles and, IIRC, was commissioned during WWII to design and make a heavy mug for use by the US Navy. The classic Victor mug is stamped on the bottom "VICTOR". There was a very good article on the Victor Company in, I think, a back issue of the diner afficiando magazine, Roadside, but I can't find much on the internet (save for a LOT of links to antique dealers and eBay sellers)- not the original story and not even whether or not the original company is still in business in Victor, NY (Wikipedia's source says "yes", others "no") -they did stop making the mugs years ago due to cheap imports flooding the market. The article mentioned above discusses how the two women who hand-made the handles were able to tell who's design the Chinese knock-offs were taken from. I've slowly gotten a small collection going of a dozen or so Victors, and US and imported knock-offs. (Most of the actual Victors are smaller than the imitations- 6 oz. vs. 8 and 10 oz'ers). Some of the nicer US made mugs sold with diner logos, etc., are from Westford China. (Many of the imports, I've noticed, don't hold up in the dishwasher and the logo eventually fade off.) http://www.westfordchina.com/product-preview.htm but, of course, they don't sell retail. Lots of diners sell them, as do a number of colleges, coffee shops and roasters and such diverse outfits as The Thoreau Society, the Stax Records Museum, Fender Guitars, NPR's Car Guys, etc. A fun little hobby, but, with the weight of a mug, the postage will often cost as much as the mug (which tend to be in the $5-10 range). They also are quite unbreakable- so far....