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Yes. While there is room for discussion about whether Jitlada is good, really good, or truly wonderful, it is in no way similar to greasy Chinese food for gringos. I've been going there for at least 5 years. Maybe you will join us when we do the e-gullet trip and try it out. Ruen Pair was yummy! I will go back for sure. I thought there were some real winners, especially the tom yum goong, the morning glory, the larb, and the spicy beef. And it was REALLY inexpensive. Thanks, Tad!

I had a really dissapointing meal at Valentino. I would not go back unless I was with someone who knew how to get the best out of them. Even the wine (the waiter's recommendation) was SO lowest-common-denomenator. (A tragedy considering the awesome wine list.) On the more positive, I second Mori Sushi (for the best experience sit at the sushi bar and do omakase), Amuse cafe for lunch--actually, Abbot Kinney has a lot of good places including Axe and Joe's. Chaya Venice used to be a fave, but a recent visit was less impressive. Still a nice room, good cocktails, and great happy hour sushi specials. Afternoon drinks at Shutters are lovely. Father's Office burger is a bleu cheese fest, which is only good if you like bleu cheese. The beer is very, very good, but the place is always packed. I can't comment on the other places mentioned. Enjoy! I hope the weather is good for you. January by the beach is often lovely! Edit: Forgot Takao on San Vicente. Very good sush, different style than Mori.

The Grove (remember, we used to have lots of orange groves all over this town) is a new commercial development immediately adjacent to the Farmer's Market which took over a lot of FM's parking lot space so it could install Nordstroms, Wood Ranch, FAO Schwartz, Gap, etc. It's the brainchild of Police Commissioner/developer Rick Caruso. Basically, it's the source of lots of gridlock and may eventually squeeze out the FM. Loteria Grill is a Mexican place. Good tacos, frescas, etc. Thanks! Pamaps Grill is really delicious! I will try Loteria next time I am there. The only good thing about the Grove is the Sur La Table. I think when they were first planning it, there was talk of taking over the Farmer's Market from the get go, but there was so much public outcry they backed off. Hooray!

I wish I could go, but I'll be out of town. Have a great time! Food Zealot, I am counting on you to post your usual excellent pictures so I can enjoy the feast vicariously!!!

Is this the Brazilian place? If so, I agree. The poultry butcher in the middle is excellent. Also, I think the french grocery and restaurant, Monsiuer Marcel, is a vast improvement over the little grocery that used to be there. I love the Farmer's Martket! The contrast with the Grove is so interesting--you can identify the Market regulars that have wandered out into the Grove my mistake by their totally confused expressions!

For coffee, I think Peet's is best. (I am from Berkeley, after all!) There is one on Main st in Santa Monica and one on Beverly Drive below Wilshire in Beverly Hills. La Dijonaisse at 8703 Washington Blvd in Culver city has the best croissants that I know of in LA.

To err is human, to forgive is divine. I guess my answer on second chances is, it depends, but probably my answer would be no. I can forgive a lukewarm soup or incorrect entree (within reason) a lot quicker than I can forgive rude or inattentive service. In your case, maybe the lamb was from a bad night in the kitchen, but the staff's reaction to it was the result of bad training by management. In my case, it was clear the owner/ chef had the philosophy that tourists were second class scum who would be served only when he had finished serving-and chatting with-all of his local customers. I saw no evidence of pride in delivering good service or creating good food the night I was there. I don't think it is too much to ask that a $6. green salad is not dressed 15 minutes beforehand and not put on a hot plate. Consistently-every salad, every night-not just for the customers you think will be returning. I wouldn't give either of these establishments another dime of my hard-earned money. There are so many good restaurants around the Bay Area, far more than I have the time to enjoy. I don't understand why I shouldn't just move on to the next one rather than give someone a second chance to disappoint me. This is my feeling exactly. A poor meal is bad enough, but the way it was handled by the staff was not cool. And the e-mail was the "nail in the coffin". They had numerous chances to get you on their good side, and they failed consistently. The bad night question is a hard one. If I go to a place for the first time and all the food is unimpressive or not good, it is very unlikely I will go back. If a trusted friend urges me, I'll consider it, but there are just so many choices... However, if just one of the items is sub par, and the staff handles it well, I am willing to overlook it. I'll try the place again. (Especially if it is a new place, or I can see that they are unusually busy.) I am curious, Chef Fowke, would you try that place again after the experience you had?

I like Sona! You should check it out. The thing I like about it is that the chef is going his own thing. Very personal. Do the 9 course menu if you can, but skip the wine pairing. Can't comment on Bastide as I've not been. (It's on the list...) If you liked AOC, you might check out Lucques. Same chef & proprieter. I'd stay away from the family dinner (monday, I think). Go to Sona if you want subtle, unusual, cal-french (in the best sense), Lucques is cal-med comfort food--great short ribs! Mongo, in terms of fine dining, I think the New Yorkers have something to be snobby about. I lived there for 8 years and have been here for 5, and I just find that most LA places emphasize scene/celebs over food. There are some exceptions, of course, but NYC is really filled with so many great places. In terms of Chinese, though, you are right. Asain in general is MUCH better here!

Chef Fowke, I am sorry to hear about your unpleasant evening. I think the restaurant was completely to blame, in particular your server. Sending the busboy to tell the chef there was a probleminstead of handling it himself, then choosing to bill you for the full meal, was not good service. But as you said, the systemic nature of the problem was made clear by the poor response to your e-mail. Did you pay with a card? I would suggest replying to the e-mail with a request for a refund onto the card. If they said you should not have paid, they should stand by the statement. By the way, I don't think $22 for lamb is cheap. We have a local Indian place that does a great tandoori lamb rack for about 15 bucks--that's cheap. But even that would not be a bargain if it sucked! I do agree that sometimes it is not worth the fight. The aggravation of getting the manager, complaining, waiting around--sometimes it is not worth it. I think I would have done the same thing you did. And thanks for the warning--I am one potential customer who will avoid the place now.

I will dissent here--I like the Border Grill. The food is fresh and good, and it is fun. The best way to go is for lunch or an afternoon snack. (No waits!) Sit at the bar, grink a margarita, and get the soft tacos and whatever appetizer special they have. Yum! Then you can save dinner for a more distinguished spot. (Be warned that the portions on the entrees are huge--stick with apps or just share.) How about La Serenata di Garibaldi right across the street? I used to go there a lot--the food is Mexico City style, not a scene at all. Where will you be eating in Venice???

YUMM!! I am so excited! Great lists, FZ. On the places, I have to say that I thought Saladang was not so good. I've only been once, but I found it to be too americanized, kind of like Tommy Tang's. Sanamluang is not a big fave for me, either, as it needs a serious cleaning and they have no beer. (I would go to either if there was arm twisting, though.) Of the others, Jitlada is the only one I've been too--can't wait to try the others. Can we add green curry, pad see ew (Sorry for the bad spelling) and maybe a shrimp salad? Also, when we go to Jitlada we have to have the panang curry prawns--called Thai lobster on the menu. Sooo good. For dates, I really don't think I can do it before January--maybe the 4th, more likely the 8th. How many of these places should we go to? Should we try to do every Sunday evening? Or every other? Erin B, we'd love to have you along!

What great rec's from hollywood! I will second the Norton-Simon with enthusiasm. Very good modern art and a lovely garden. The Huntington is nice, too, if you are into more traditional stuff (William Morris right now), and the botanical gardens are also very nice. If you go to Moca, also go the Geffen center, which is nearby, as Hollywood mentions. I know nothing about the current show, GREGOR SCHNEIDER, DEAD HOUSE UR, but they often have cutting edge stuff. The UCLA Hammer Museam in Brentwood is surprisingly good for contemporary. The current show is Lee Bontecou. For more art, I like Bergamot Station. Lots of small galleries in a converted Santa Monica industrial park. Some crap, but some good stuff, too. Another fun thing is Chung King Road. This is a small alley in China Town that has been taken over by hipsters, artists (maybe!), wannabees, and DJ's. There are a few shops and galleries on the street, and they have a collective "open-house" one Saturday a month. (Sorry I have no idea which one. You can contact this gallery if you are interested.) The scene is kind of silly, but it is also fun and full of energy. Go for dinner in Chinatown afterward. (I like Yang Chow, though I have the feeling it would be spurned by more in-the-know e-Gulleters.) Speaking of Chinese food, you MUST go to Tai Hung Lao, where we had the e-gullet dumpling lunch. I can't even tell you how good it was. The place is in Arcadia, just east of Pasadena. Here is the thread, complete with pictures and the address. I haven't eaten out much in Pasadena, so I'm not much help there, but I'll regail you with my uninformed opinions, nonetheless. I would avoid Saladang (too westernized and flavorless) and Mi Piace (popular Italian place, not bad, but not so great either.) I really liked the Yujean Kang's on Melrose--I miss it since it closed. I've not been to the Pasadena branch, but by all accounts it is very good. It is sophisticated Chinese. I would guess that the room is very nice, based on the Melrose branch. You should go to Zankou chicken, too!!! Get the roasted chicken with garlic sauce (house specialty). Terrible atmosphere, but SOOO yummy. 1296 E. Colorado Blvd. (Hill Ave.) Pasadena (626) 405-1502 Akbar, a hole-in-the-wall type Indian place, has a branch in Pasadena (44 N. Fair Oaks Ave. (Union St.) (626) 577-9916. The Venice and SM places are both top-notch. I have heard that there are some very good Armenian places in Glendale, but I don't have specifics. Glendale borders Pasadena to the west. For Thai, my fave is Jitlada. (It is in Hollywood. Not super far fom Pasadena.) Or better yet, go to the Wat Thai Temple in North Hollywood. It is between Pasadena and the Getty. The address is 8225 Coldwater Canyon. It is a big food fair held every weekend. Thai home-cooks and restaurant cooks alike set up booths and make some great stuff. Some is fabulous (especially sticky rice with mango, though don't know if it is in season) and some stuff is a little funky, but it is an amazing experience. I think is is all Saturdays and Sundays, but you might double check. # is 818-780-4200. On 2117, I think it is pretty good. We had an e-gullet dinner there last year. While some of the dishes were excellent, some were not so memorable. However, it is a very good value for the high/haute level of the food. Chinoise on Main, Matsuhisa, and Sona are all places that do an excellent job of Asian/Euro crossover. I have heard Bistro 21 on La Cienega and Cafe Blanc in Beverly hills are both excellent Japanese/Euro fusion places, but I have tried neither. What about sushi??? There are some good places on Ventura (easy access between Pasadena and the Getty). Also outstanding is Sushi Mori in West LA, near 2117. Edit: added some urls.

It's because cows taste good. People would be happy to believe that eating nothing but cheesecake would cause weight loss, because cheesecake tastes better than the diet alternatives. If raw food actually tasted better than cooked food, there would be more than a couple of places offering it. If say nuts made better tasting cheese than milk does, or coconuts made better noodles than semolina, people would be discussing how great their pasta tastes now that they are using coconuts instead of wheat, but they aren't - because it doesn't. Melkor, you really can't make that claim till you've tried the stuff. IMO, the coconut noodles are good enough, and subtly different enough from wheat noodles, to warrant my interest. I'd buy them at the market if I could, not for health reasons, but just because I like them, and they'd make a nice change from the norm. Roxanne may have a philosophy that people like or dislike, but I think the more interesting thing (especially for e-Gullet's purposes) is that she is an innovator. Someone has to come up with new ideas--after all, they come from somewhere. Someone had to figure out how to make pasta from semolina, or how to use yeast to leaven bread, or how to make booze. (Not that coconut noodles are on par with those achievements, but they still taste good.) I do agree with you, however, that it would be easier to convince people that cheescake is a viable diet food, than to get them to go for the whole raw food thing. I think it is too complex, too foreign, and too difficult for most people to buy into. Personally, I find it easier to believe that a Roxanne's style raw-food diet is better for me than atkins, based on feeling damned good after I ate the food. (Again, that aspect of it is less interesting to me than the flavor/food aspect.) Interstingly, Roxanne gets a lot of flack from the raw extremists for serving wine, but she is just too much of a foodie to give it up. That was my take, anyway, after reading her preamble to the wine list. (The article can be found on the Roxanne's Website. You have to look under menus, then wines.)

Here's a turkey technique: My Grandmother used to make my Grandfather pull all the tendons out of the turkey legs with a pair of channel locks. Has anyone ever tried this? I do it when I have a monstrously large turkey--I don't notice a tendon problem on smaller birds. It allows you to carve the leg into nice, neat slices. Crazy Canadians!!!! One word: Brining One word: Pointless. This surprises me! I have had very good results from brining--I really notice a big difference. Meat is jucier, and the brining seems to build a few minutes of leeway into the cooking time. (ei, if you roast it for a few minutes too long, the meat is still okay.) I don't bother with turning the bird over. Every time I have tried that it just shreds the skin on the breast. You are not planning to deep fry a stuffed bird, are you? I think that would be a very bad idea. The oil needs to circulate in the cavity to cook the bird. Has anyone done this? Did you read the safety thread? I'd hate to hear about exploding turkeys later!!! That being said, deep frying does produce a very juicy turkey. Juicier than any roasted bird I've had.

Great post, adrober! Congratulations on your brave forray into the word of risotto making. It's good, isn't it? If you have any of Marcella Hazan's books, her risotto recipes are tops. (Not that Alice's aren't wonderful.) My favorite is artichoke risotto. Also very good: radicchio risotto, red wine risotto, and milanese, with saffron. MMMM

Stone- I am so glad you took the leap--and even more glad that you liked the meal so much! I agree with your observations about the strength of the non-meat (and not trying to be meat) approach--after all, vegetables are good! Especially the unusual stuff like the baby coriander. And also that the food is actually quite rich because of all the nut products. I was stuffed after my meal there. Those coconut noodles are so good. They have the chewy substantial quality of noodles, but they are also very tender and have a special somthing that is hard to describe. I would eat them any chance I got. I guess they are one item that I would like to learn to make, or would like to buy and have on a regular basis. Thanks for the post and for the good pix--I think they really help explain what the food is all about.

We have done deep fried turkeys 3 or 4 times and have lived to tell the tale. We got the "kit" for 60 bucks from Home Depot and it works great. For gravy, I do exactly as Alex does, with the addition of some carrots, onions, and celery the the roasting pan. Another thing to consider: You could do a practice run. We did this the first time we fried a turkey. Then you have a whole turkey carcass with which to make your stock, plus extra leftovers for the freezer! (You want to pick small turkeys for the deep frying, so this is not as crazy as it sounds.)

Mmmmmeatball sandwich....

Cafe Greco was my favorite when I lived up there, but that was many moons ago...

Wow! Another fabulous post, jeffj. Many thanks!!! A question: How did you like the Inskillin Ice Wine? I have seen it aound and read about it, but I've never tried it. Another question: Your posts are so detailed--do the pictures help you remember everything? I assume you take lots of notes, as well. Any pointers would be apprecitaed--I will generally remember on or two favorite dishes well, and the rest gets all blurry! Last question: How would you compare this meal with your recent meal at the French Laundry? Thanks!

Well done on the groceries! That haul would have set me back at least 3 times that much at my local yuppy mart. I second snow angel's beans idea. I cooked up a batch this week and have enjoyed having them on hand. I was thinking white beans with sage or rosemary could be a nice side for the veal breast. A chilli-like bean soup with some tomatoes and some of the leftover meat is very tasty if you have some good cili powder or canned chipotles on hand. Plus you can serve it with cornbread. Lots of soup. You can really stretch the meats/leftovers that way, and quickbreads like biscuits are a nice accompaniment. Are you a baker? Bread baking is someting I would delve into if I had more time than $, same with fresh pasta. (This is assuming you have time...) Another thought--herbs in the store can be so expensive, but seeds are almost free. Maybe flower pots on a sunny window sill could provide some fresh herds? I've done italian parsley, basil, chives, and cilantro from seeds with good results. Hope thing start looking up soon!

I would prefer the 14th, but the other dates work for me. Wherever the group wants to go is fine by me. I've only been to Woo Lae Oak (both branches) in LA, so I'll be glad to try a more authentic place.

Mina's place in the St Francis is supposed to open sometime soon. Details on the Wine Spectator Site..

Braised with baby artichokes and white wine and lemon juice? When I was a kid one of my favorite snacks was cold baked potato sliced and spread with grainy mustard. MMM

Happy Birthday essvee! And thanks for the marvelous post!