waaza

two possibilities (maybe three ) 1: that word costco, not known in UK but I'm thinking 'cheap'?. Some cheap chicken breasts are pumped full of water/protein, and the protein isn't necessarily chicken!!! 2: did you use full fat yoghurt and marinade for about 24 hours? If not, could be the reason. Try placing the chicken on a wire mesh covered in Al foil, then cut holes in the foil to let the excess water drip through to a tray beneath, and increase the temperature of the oven to very hot. BTW, the red colour on tandoori chicken comes from the added dye, so no dye, no colour. Another tip, keep breasts whole, and if wanted bite-sized, carve afterwards. HTH cheers Waaza

I don't think the average punter would know what the proper food of a country really tastes like. Most Brits would not have visited India of China, and those countries they had visited were probably been served from the 'tourist menu'. This happens within India itself, how can a Keralite be expected to know what a real tandoori dish or rogan josh tastes like unless they had visited the relevant regions or be educated by others who 'know'? I don't live in a large town, and the nearest large city restaurants are 90 mins away, so I have not observed such places patronised with Asian people, except in the restaurant I mentioned in the East End of London. BTW, it is all too easy to expect all Indian people to be experts on Indian cuisine. I would not call myself an expert on English cuisine (whatever that might be) being more informed of ISC, Japanese, Peruvian and Moroccan cuisines. If I consider my Indian friends, there is a broad spectrum of culinary knowledge, as with all peoples. My guess is that the people you mention are quite young, so either they have not grown up submerged in Indian culinary traditions, or it is indeed a social thing, probably a bit of both. I cannot see how they could appreciate the mush served up in the name of Indian food. I know most of my Indian friends shun away from such establishments. BTW, while in a Bangalore mal, I saw a McD full of Bangaloreans, in my book it didn't mean 'McD is good food', just people exploring the unknown. In fact, most of the usual offerings had to be changed....does that say something? (and no, I have never had a McD, the smell is enough to make me want to chuck). Isn't it about time someone started marketing real Indian food ? (outside of the ISC). cheers Waaza

[ good points, Carlovski; best eatery in my town is an unpretentious pub, cooked to order stuff. Lets get one thing sorted here. 'Indian restaurants' are mostly run by non-Brits, mostly Bengali, Pakistani and Bangladeshi; this has been so since the sixties, and even before. So, enough of the British-Indian thing, the dishes were invented by non-Brits for Brits who knew nothing (and still ignorant) of real Indian cuisine (this goes for most of the Indian restaurant cooks too, unfortunately). What we have is a culture (?!?) born out of ignorance for the ignorant in the name of profit. Nothing so wrong in that, many businesses are built on this principle. But it is not British, please don't blame the Brits for this state of affairs (we're blamed (probably correctly) for so many other things), Indian restaurants in the UK (and I suspect in other coutries as well) are run by Asians. If they invented the 'British curry', then it is they who have to take the credit/debit. What really saddens me is that it is possible to sell/serve real Asian food profitably with little or no change to suit Western tastes. I have only experienced it once in the East End of London (no, not Brick Lane). Large dishes of food were cooked, and when it was gone, it was off the menu! cheers Waaza

I understand your sentiments, which are well put. Eating out is about food and friends/relations and meeting new people, but my comments were really about the food. I've had a quick look at the site cited, as much as is allowed, but I can't help but comment about the 'lack of business', though many forums suffer from this as well. Maybe our enjoyment of restaurant food is dependant, to some extent, on our enjoyment of the company. But even after a grand tour of all the Indian restaurants in Chester, UK, I could only award 4/10 for the best of them, though having sampled many Indian dishes in restaurants in India, some would attract as low a score. Why can't you have good company and good Indian food? Would this not be synergistic? cheers Waaza

I think you are under a misapprehension; many of us prefer to cook the real thing, takes the same time, and the results are much superior (IMHO). The real advantage of the real thing is that each dish uses just one kind of meat, which is married perfectly with flavours to produce a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts, rather than your 'any meat with any sauce' type, which always tastes the same (from the same restaurant, but different from any other restaurant, a sorry state of affairs, IMHO). So if you like 'restaurant curries' why not give your taste buds a real treat and make some pukka stuff? cheers Waaza

Namaste Gautam Is mausambi juice used in Indian dishes, or just as a lovely drink? cheers Waaza

it must be quite difficult for some authors/cooks to pitch their level of instruction. Do they assume everyone is a competent / incompetent, or try to arrive at a median level? What is extremely useful for one maybe very tedious for another. That’s why I like simpler recipes with notes (think of it as mainstream and tributaries) as you well know Ducks'. In fact, some of the best chefs wrote only scant notes just as an aide memoir, and I can change recipes to fall inline with my own thoughts about cooking science. After saying all this, though, techniques learnt should be applicable to most cuisines. cheers Waaza

Ader, I suggest you buy the book, then you will see the other recipes and hopefully forget about the 'curry sauce' approach; at best, it may save time, at worst, its generic gunk, IMHO. cheers Waaza

.. about volume reduction, when reducing the water content of the gravy, when boiling (or a rather fast simmer is better) the bubbles (of steam) are quite large to begin with. As the bubbles burst, droplets of gravy are carried into the surrounding atmosphere with loss of flavour, but mostly quantitatively meaning all the flavours components are lost to the same extent. If just assisted evapouration is used at lower temperatures, different flavour compounds will be lost at different rates, and this could change the overall flavour of the dish !! When the bubbles become smaller (and are produced more quickly) this is the ponit when the water and oil/fat combine in a kind of emulsion, and is the point at which you should stop heating. The gravy formed in this way will contain water and oil/fat and be the most flavoursome and have a good mouthfeel. This is when I would add salt if needed, not before. I would say the method is straight forward, maybe a few techniques need to be practiced and a bit of experience needs to be 'tucked under the apron'. However, these techniques are transferable to other dishes/cuisines, and not confined to Indian cooking. Apart from really specialised techniques in other cuisines, I believe Indian food preparation methods cover most of what is needed for most dishes/cuisines, and some are peculiar to Indian food prep. only. That is why I would put it up there with French and Japanese cuisines. Learn how to cook Indian dishes, and most other dishes are covered as well. The recipe is very detailed for the reason given above, and I believe a good reason. I am very familiar with writing analytical chemistry methods (could ya tell?) but they don't contain the rational behind the method. I think this is a missed opportunity to educate. Thats why the notes are extensive, though other recipes may include very similar notes, so once learnt and experienced, the notes are not so important, hence my comment about Escoffier (et al). However, when showing staff how to perform certain analytical methods, there is a period when the techniques are learnt, this is known as tech (nical) transfer, and is a check to prove proper proceeds are carried out. In most recipe books, all you get is a recipe, but without explanation, often without a picture or two which may have clarified things. How is the in/experienced cook supposed to know what the finished product should taste/look like? Not for the beginner? well maybe not, although very good for learning and practicing and understanding. These multi-phasic recipes are complicated at first sight, but can be broken down into more managable chunks: marination, frying (bhunoing) browning, stewing, reduction. All easy, even the bhunoing with a little practice, it is only an oil extraction method, with tempering with water to reduce the chances of burning, (like all near-burning techniques ) And the recipe is more involved than 'bung it in a pan and heat'. But you get out what you put in, and some: synergy. Its what separates the chefs from the cooks cheers and a happy new year to everyone Waaza

Hi ChryZ, Looks OK. Maybe you feel the gravy should have more liquid? This is one area where the result depends on the cook. This vindaloo recipe is essentailly a stew, that is, the meat is cooked on low (simmering) heat covered with water-based liquid until tender. If served like this, with plenty of water, as in other stew recipes, the flavour would be lacking somewhat, as it is intended to serve as a rich gravy rather than as a thin stew. So, the quantity of liquid has to be reduced. This can be accomplished, obviously, by taking the lid off the pan and maybe increasing the heat a little. If you do this, the meat may get a little tougher as it shrinks and squeezes out more water from its tissues. If you need to reduce the volume of the gravy, I would suggest you remove the meat first, then raise the temperature of the pan so you can boil off the water to requirement. Note, however, that you could lose quite a bit of flavour if boiled too rapidly. The flavour chemicals from the spices and other ingredients are volatile (or we wouldn't be able to smell them!). When heated at elevated temperature, these volatiles will be lost, and their rate of loss will be related to the temperature * see below. So, if you think the meat has cooked, remove it from the pan (may be to a serving dish), then reduce the volume of the gravy, and spoon over the meat. The instructions including the notes are lengthy, but I did it mostly for Grub, who I thought justified the effort and who turned out an excellent result. If you understand all the notes and look only at the recipe, it is quite simple, although some of the techniques may have to be practiced. If one looks at Escoffier's recipes, they are not much more than aide-memoires, for he knew how to cook. Most of my notes are applicable to most Indian dishes, and many are pan-cuisine. * I have been discussing the issue of flavour distribution/loss with a professor of environmental studies in Canada (he is the world's leading authority on fugacity). Look here at one of my weblogs for more info is needed. HTH cheers Waaza

I am sure you are correct about different cookers, pots, ambient temperatures, etc. These are some of the variables we seem less inclined to control in a domestic situation, but which, I feel, will be seen to be very important in professional kitchens as we learn more about the cooking processes. Your comment about ingredients from different countries is another excellent point. On a recent trip to India, I noticed significant differences in meat (Indian being generally tougher) vegetables (although some could have been out of season) and dairy products (generally Indian dahi and cream seemed very sour to my western taste buds). Onions in India were reddy/pink but other wise very similar to ones I choose in the UK, garlic and ginger were less plump. All this adds up to a situation where an Indian dish cooked with western ingredients would be sweeter than the desi equivalent. This, together with the longer cooking times necessary for Indian meat and the differences start to add up, if vegetable oil was used instead of desi ghee, with all the other differences I wonder if the western cooked dish would be recognised on the Indian sub-continent. Does it make much of a difference which ingredients are used? I'd say so. My western attemps are often just the sum of the parts, whereas Indian-made dishes seemed to be more than the sum of the parts, all seemed to fit together. An example is using cassia leaves instead of the often misused bay leaf for flavouring rice, for example. The cassia leaf marries seemlessly with basmati rice, the bay leaf fights it a little, IMHO. cheers Waaza

you bring up many interesting points, 'it's 5 pm' your liking for the longer cooked-deeper flavour dishes may be a preference born in childhood, 'no-one makes it like mom' sort of thing. Its very understandable to have parent's cooking be the benchmark. However, as you have discussed, other cooks/authors see life and cooking differently, those that have actually cooked their own recipes, that is. Tis apparent not all of them have! Your liking for things to have a long cooking time allows the full development of flavours, not possible with shortened versions. However, one reason you may be adding twice the flavourings could be due to losses incurred from the prolonged cooking times. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose. I've been working on calculating the losses likely, with some surprising results, to be blogged as soon as I can. One reason I think cooks shorten times is what's seen on TV, there, because of time constraints, onions are never properly cooked, and the whole mess goes into the oven only lightly cooked. Never have I seen anyone mention about the importance of prolonged cooking of onions/garlic/ginger/chilli/tomatoes. I think we are due that soon. cheers Waaza

regarding the onions, the reaction is really in two steps, the enzymes react (or help produce) the pungency, and the water hydrolyses the products. So water will not help the situation, but make it worse. The only way of reducing the pungency and off-flavours is to add an acid (say lemon/lime juice or vinegar) which may hinder the enzyme, as in browning cut fruit. cheers Waaza

How interesting you should say this. Since cheap veg oils have been taken over by soy, I have to be obsessively careful about buying oil, because soy smells and tastes, to me, of rotting fish. Interesting. Many seasoned tasters have reported the same thing, and leveled the blame at one particular omega three (chemists call it omega 15!) C18 fatty acid found in soybean oil, I think (I don't have access to my book at the moment). Interesting that C18:2 fatty acids give roast/toast type flavours, and emphasises the importance of choosing the cooking oil/fat carefully. Like you, I use rape seed oil, and have done so for 25 years, I find it healthy and without flavour. I use it in all my experiments when frying, and always find I get a pleasant 'french fry' aroma with it, even when cooking non-potato ingredients! I have never used soybean oil, and would definitely never use peanut oil, because of peoples nut allergies and possible aflatoxin contamination. cheers Waaza

thanks Scott for your reply and interest. I think I would agree that the shape of the pan may make a difference, but have not data to say one way or the other (yet!), another experiment, perhaps. However, I must point out that the temperature of the oil was always above 100°C (apart from when the cold onion was first placed in the beaker) and therefore loss is by boiling and not evaporation, maybe you meant boiling? Secondly, I did point out that we would not normally cover the onion in oil, but as observed, the only bits of the onion that turned brown were out of the oil, so maybe this is important to the browning process? Your comments would be welcome. cheers Waaza ps I've also experimented with garlic and ginger, with similar, but slightly non-linear relationships, to be added to the blog as soon as I can. Do you have experimental data to back up your claims?

but the OP did not mention whether it was Indian curry powder or not. AFAIK, 'curry powder' is not used in India, the most well known curry powder, 'Madras curry powder' is all exported from Chennai. If you use curry powder (to produce what you think is a curry) then you must be one of those people who thinks curry is a single flavour, and the only curries are 'chicken curry, lamb curry, prawn curry,' etc. which, of course, is not what this forum is about. However, if you use it to 'spice up' a dish, then maybe you should learn a little (maybe a lot!) more about flavouring. As has been pointed out by some up-thread, most Indian dishes are produced from individual spices, and for a very good reason. Spices need to be added at different times in the proceedings, this is to ensure extraction of the flavours, to limit burning and ensure proper mixing. There is a growing number of packets of spices to enable the 'cook' to produce single dishes, I have seen these in Asian stoes in the UK, and in India. The variety of packets (and therefore dishes) far exceed the number of common spices a good cook would use, so what is the point, apart from convenience? I do confess to using some mixes I've blended myself, such as sambhar and rasam, and my own garam masalas (which do not contain coriander or cumin powder), but these are for very specific dishes, and ones I use all the time. I don't use mixes for rogan josh, which I might make once a month, as the spices need to be freshly ground to give of their best. HTH cheers Waaza

Hi cn, Frying whole spices is common in some regional cuisines in India, especially Bengali, where they use panch poran in most things (or so it seems ). In Bengali cooking, a mix of the five seeds, fenugreek, cumin, fennel, kalongi (usually mis-identified as onion seed) and radhuni (wild celery seed, often replaced with brown mustard seed, but these can pop violently) are fried for a minute or so at the beginning of making a dish. Many Indian dishes (especially N Indian) start by frying onions until they are golden, this usually takes about 20 minutes, but can take up to an hour without browning, see:my food blog getting the right temperature is vital, and you will have to experiment, choosing the right pan is important, heavy being better (IMHO than thin-walled) and watch for draughts around the pan, which can cool. Another alternative is to do it in two stages, do a hot oil extract of the spice/s, then, when happy, sieve out the whole spices and use the oil for frying the onions, etc. Note that if adding tomatoes at a later stage, you should have added all (or most) of the other spices by this time (again see my blog....read about Kow) The point about the oil glistening concerns the distribution of flavours in the dish. All spice flavours are derived from volatile chemicals which are more oil-liking than water-liking. This means that, after a suitable length of time cooking, the spice flavours will have dissolved in the oil and be associated with any meat present, with very little in the water/veg mush. To obtain a gravy with the maximum amount of flavour throughout, the oil and water have to mix. Short of adding an emulsifier (or thickener), heating the gravy until the right amount of water and oil are present to form a homogeneous mix is recommended, you can see this happening, as the oil just starts to separate. Add back a little water, and stir the gravy, then serve. Read the article about fugacity in my blog, if you dare!. It might make sense Hope this helps cheers Waaza

Real cinnamon sticks are paler and softer than cassia, and kind of flaky around the edges. ← cinnamon (real and imaginary ) on left, cassia bark on right. © Suresh Hinduja 2005 (hope you don't mind, Suresh) cheers Waaza

thanks Milagai, .......its good to get confirmation. I think most of the confusion arises because there just isn't an English (in its widest context) word for a species or genera that doesn't grow in Europe/US/wherever. The fact that some things have a passing resemblance to Europe/US/wherever based flora has been the reason to adopt the name, but a tej patta (leaf from the cassia tree) is not the same as a bay leaf (although of different genera they are of the same taxonomic family, I think) and to my taste buds not a good substitute for one another. Once one has tasted cassia leaves in with basmati rice, a bay leaf in the same never quite seems to fit. The cassia leaf blends perfectly (IMHO), the bay leaf fights a little. cheers Waaza ps I'll send some real cinnamon to you if you like, although ironically a packet I bought recently is marked 'cassia' The Hindi name for cinnamon is dal chini, which I believe means 'wood from China' in Arabic or Farsi (?) so it actually describes cassia, and not cinnamon, which originated in Sri Lanka, AFAIK.

Yes, that would be appreciated and most helpful. Is there a thread devoted to this already ? ← don't know, if there is, then maybe this can be added to it. Indian equivalent (US/UK/?) kalonji is not onion seed, or black cumin shah jeera is black cumin (bunium persicum) but not caraway (caraway) can only mean black cumin tej patta is a cassia leaf, not a bay leaf cinnamon is most often cassia, even in India lovage is ajwain radhuni is wild celery seed mutton is goat meat beef is water buffalo (except in the state of Kerala) cream is like sour cream kashmiri chilli are mostly byadgi chilli I realize some of these may be contentious, but I am prepared to discuss . cheers Waaza

haven't come across this one. Ajmud is often applied to celery (both ordinary and wildcelery,or radhuni). Calling it 'thyme seed' is misleading, as thyme is a different family altogether*. The ajwain seed is small, like celery seed, and tastes strongly of the thyme plant. HTH cheers Waaza * although kalonji is often called onion seed, which is also no relation. There are many more examples, let me know if you want to know them. W

a suitable sub would be thyme, as the main component in ajwain is thymol (mint is to menthol as thyme is to thymol). Although caraway is in the same family (umbelliferae) as cumin, dill, ajwain, coriander, it is not substitute for any of them. I was told it was not even grown in India, though on a recent trip to Bangalore I bought some in a supermarket, marked 'cake seed'. Ajwain is called Bishop's weed, or carom, it is not parsley seed, although parsley is also an umbellifera, as is celery and radhuni. Best to try and find a source, one of those indispensible spices. cheers Waaza

yep, it is, used as the seed and the dried leaf, and shoots! I would be careful about what are and what are not 'Kashmiri chillies'. As it is known, the region of Jammu and Kashmir is in turmoil at the moment, and even getting to the markets that sell chillies is fraught with danger. This situation has led to less scrupulous dealers selling any chilli under the guise of 'Kashmiri chilli'. I have at least two packets which, although stated on the label, are definitely not from Kashmir. I hope to bring back from real ones obtained by a friend who went into the 'bad lands' to procure a few of the real ones. I don't believe they are particularly bright in colour nor that mild, about average in fact. The mildest chillies are grown in Karnataka, and are called Byadgi, after the market that sells them. They would be the equivalent of 'Indian paprika'. Of all the approximately 300 chilli varieties that I know of that grow in India, these are the nearest to what I believe people require in mildness and colour. cheers Waaza

recipes, as promised. There is a third recipe which takes this one stage further by frying the chicken in butter, and adding a few more spices, then adding the sauce and cooking a little longer, but I need my notes for that, and I will post at a later date, along with a list of ingredients for the tandoori and chaat masala. cheers Waaza Tandoori style chicken breasts with ginger and tomato sauce. Recipe by Waaza, please do not change anything, if copying, and give credit where relevant, please. This recipe uses chicken breasts instead of part of, or a whole small chicken (on the bone) to provide an easy to eat starter or main course, which is good cold as well! It does not contain hot spices, and is perfect for those who wish to try ‘spicier’ food, without jumping straight into a full blown Indian meal. It is loosely based on chicken makhani (or what it has become!) the origins of which are well known. This dish could even be the basis of the dreaded ‘CTM’. As always, I have included some notes, although this dish must be one of the easiest to perfect. Nonetheless, it is, IMHO, one of the best; a good example where the result is better than the sum of the parts (ie its not just a load of flavours mixed together, one has to develop them!) For four people or pro rata: 1 Choose four very plump chicken breasts (no bone), the best quality [1]. 2 After washing, place each breast on a chopping board so that each lies east-west. 3 Cut diagonally from east to west across the meat, about ¾ of the way down into the breast. 4 Now flip the breast over north south, so the major axis of the breast still lies west-east, but the cut diagonals (now underneath) run west to east. 5 Repeat the diagonal cuts, as before (east to west). You should now end up with a whole breast, cut with diagonal slashes running contrary to each other.[2] 6 Prepare the marinade by mixing: full fat yoghurt (say 5 fl oz), [3] tandoori masala, about a teaspoonful, but to taste[4] finely chopped fresh garlic (one to two cloves) and finely chopped fresh root ginger (about an inch). Add to the yoghurt, and mix well[5] 7 If you like, paint each breast with red/orange/yellow food dye, (this is up to you, of course, but the final result looks stunning (if a little too red!)) 8 Put the marinade in a bowl (plastic is fine) immerse the slashed chicken breasts in it and ensure every crevice is coated. 9 Cover (with plastic wrap) and refrigerate for 24 hours.[6] 10 To cook, prepare a hot grill (broiler or salamander) or even a charcoal grill (maybe the best, apart from a tandoor!). 11 Place all the breasts on a tray lined with foil, lightly greased, and grill for about 8 minutes (depending on heat levels). [7] 12 remove the tray, and sprinkle on some chat masala, to taste. [8] 13 Turn the breast over and repeat the grilling and salting. 14 Either serve as is, or cooled, or use with a ginger and tomato sauce (recipe follows). For the sauce 1 Take two inches of fresh root ginger and slice to produce thin rounds. 2 In a small saucepan heat about two tablespoons oil or ghee. [9] 3 Fry the ginger until crisp, then remove it, let it cool a little, then chop finely.[10] 4 Add it back to the hot oil, and immediately add a 16oz tin of plum tomatoes.[11] 5 Cook to reduce the liquor a little. Now you can add any left-over marinade (there shouldn’t be much) and any juices from cooking the chicken (on the foil!) [12] 6 The sauce can be left in this state until near to serving, then 7 Add a little (about 2 tablespoons) of double cream, and stir the sauce to mix well. 8 Add a little lime/lemon juice to taste, as a foil to the cream and add a little salt if needed. [14] 9 Just bring to the boil, and reduce the heat to low. Check the seasoning. 10 To serve, spoon some of the sauce onto the serving plate, cut the chicken across the breasts, and separate a little, showing the ‘white’ inside, and place on the sauce. [15] notes [1] , or I have used guinea fowl and even ostrich meat. [2] this rather elaborate procedure (to write but easy to accomplish) ensures that if the cut is too deep, the breast will still remain whole. In essence, we are trying to achieve the maximum surface area for marinade permeation. [3] use full fat yoghurt, this helps with the permeation of the flavours, and produces a moister product. [4] I often use a bought masala, and maybe supplement it with other spices. There are several ideas on the net as to what can be used, (maybe open to discussion), but in fact, I don’t believe it’s that important, it doesn’t seem to make much difference to the final product. [5] The mix, if a bought product is used which has a little dye in it, ends up a lurid pink colour, but don’t worry, it turns red on heating! [6] It is essential to marinate for this time, the permeation rate of spice flavours is very slow (mm per hour), but this is an area I am going to (scientifically) experiment with. [7] The final product has just the very edges slightly burnt, so cook until it just starts to burn. [8] chat masala is like a spicy salt, containing some very smelly ingredients, including black volcanic salt and devil’s dung (asafoetida or hing) it also contains dried fenugreek leaves - recipe to follow. It has the ability to bring out the meatiness of the chicken. [9] Butter is inappropriate here, as it will burn. [10] This process develops the flavour of the ginger, which is extracted into the oil. [11] You may have to adjust the temperature of the pan to prevent spitting. [12] I add the marinade and cooking juices, but my SIL, whom I taught, prefers not to, horses for courses! [14] This is really classic French procedure. The end result is not unlike ‘cream of tomato’ soup, with a subtle ginger flavour. It may need a little adjustment to get it just right, but experience will tell you. [15] The result should be so good as to warrant a little extra decoration, I sometimes use gold leaf, especially if I’m using guinea fowl (in which case I call it ‘golden guinea fowl’!!)

OK, will try to post tomorrow. Methi is fenugreek, and I do add it to tandoori chicken, but in a special way. Also I have some comments about Kashmiri chillies. 'til tomorrow, if pos. cheers Waaza (name is from the head cook who cooks the waazawan!) its also a corruption of my surname........