waaza

no problems, Pan, I'm quite willing to accept that my taste buds don't detect anything much from kalonji, although the age of the spice is always a variable, not to mention the age of my taste buds I use black sesame seeds instead. cheers Waaza

Hi Grub, just back from hols, hence late reply: would agree with replies you have had so far, good advice there. My comments as follows; 1) two smaller onions would be better, IMHO, in the UK the very large (Spanish) onion is too mild to contribute much pungency to the dish, I have always used the (less attractive) smaller onion. Press the tops to weed out the ones with premature rot (they will be much softer at the tips). The root end is where the sulphur flavours are concentrated, the whole onion stores the starches from where the sweetness eventually comes. 2) chopped onion seems to be good, but I would cook them for longer, they must be golden, 20 mins is not uncommon. 3) I use a (laboratory) grinder (Waring blender) for my spices, I have found most pestle and mortar jobbies to be rather cosmetic, though yours seems to be OK. 4) I suggest you 'roast' the seeds in a dry heavy pan. The word roasting is a bit misleading, as roasting usually occurs in an oven. What you need to do is heat the pan over highish heat (8/10) add the seeds and move them about whilst heating. This browns them all over, rather than burning som bits and not browning others. Heat until a little smoke appears above the pan (you may have to look carefully, at an angle to see it, but be aware that some seeds can jump out of the pan and cause painful blisters on the skin (experience talking here!!). Once you have spotted the smoke, leave it for another 10 seconds, then remove the pan from the ring to another cold one, to cool quicker. 5) IMHO, there is no need to roast the star anise, is does nothing but volatilize the aromatics, so lose you flavour, not enhance it. BTW, roasting the cumin, coriander and fenugreek is necessary for this dish. It produces chemicals called pyrazines, which produce the sensation of 'roasting smells', which is necessary because the meat (pork) will not have as much flavour (using the cooking methods used to produce this dish) as if it were roasted or fried. Essentially, a vindaloo is a 'stew', that is, cooked with excess water-based liquids, so deep roasted flavours will not develop. Which leads me to: 6) As you have noted, the temperatures (and timing) are off optimum. The pork was tough for two reasons (other than it was tough to start with ) Tough meat needs treating with care, and less heat. Never fry/grill the meat, it needs as low a temperature as can be used (and still be cooked). So, gently fry your onions until golden (about 20 mins or so), then, while maintaing the same heat, add your meat. Gently cook until all the water/vinegar has boiled/evap'ed off, then add rest of marinade (I would have expected much more liquid, I would suggest you add enough liquid so that the marinade totally covers your meat, (from your excellent photos not all the chunks were totally coated). Once you have bhuna'd a few times (adding water when dry) cover with water/stock or tomatoes if you want to (though not authentic, probably). It is important to cover the meat with liquid, to get even cooking. Simmer so that occasional bubbles break the surface only. Do not boil. Simmer for at least 45 mins, though you will have to make the final choice. As has been mentioned, this is not a stir fry dish, so treat it as a stew, and get on with preping something else while it is cooking. I would not add (or subtract) from this recipe (though I question the tomatoes), and would not add the panch poran. You already have the cumin and fenugreek, and the anise will cover for the fennel, the kalonji is tasteless (to my taste buds) which leaves the mustard seeds (or randhuni if we are to be totally authentic!). The other spices and flavours in the vindaloo will overpower any in the panch poran. I use split fenugreek, as used in making pickles, if you can get hold of these, I would recommend them. It has been mentioned that vindaloo (and othe dishes) can taste better a day or more after cooking. Two reasons for this, I suggest, is that the oil has time to extract more flavour from the spices (and chillies/ginger etc) and your nose is not full of the smells of the cooking process, you attack the vindaloo with a fresh nose! Hope this helps, please keep trying, you will be rewarded soon, I am sure, and once you have reached vindaloo nirvana, and understood the processes which make good flavours, it will give you the confidence to try other dishes, hopefully with equal success. good luck cheers Waaza

That's Air India for ya Waaza

Actually, no. I know the type you are referring to and in fact have some at home right now. They were bought, just to confuse the issue, at a grocery store that imports all its produce from Pakistan, and Indian and Pakistan customers are quite happy to buy them. However, the ones I'm referring to are on average about 7-8 cm long, though they can range from, say, 5-12 cm in length. They are, very approximately, 1 cm in width. then that would be sannam variety, I think. It seems there are only four main types of chilli, sannam, as you describe, mundu, the small round kind, birdseye and 'wrinkled', sometimes called byadgi, which has little or no heat. For me, the fabled 'Kashmiri chilli' apparently has achieved mythical status, and although nearly everyone seems to sell 'Kashmiri chilli powder', the state of K&J would have to be 6 feet deep in chillies to supply the apparent demand (a little licence taken with the actual amounts, but you get the point!) and vary from one end to the other, and sometimes one side from the other, life is never that simple, is it? I think of the red chilli as a little sweet, so, by contrast........ thanks again for the input ansu cheers Waaza

yes, a great help. Is the 'generic chilli' you talk of about 30-50 mm long, and 5mm diameter, and is quite hot and sour? I think its a cayenne type, the exact designation is difficult to guess, as they cross pollinate so easily, and are being developed all the time to combat disease, it would seem. Some only have code numbers, like X235 and NP46A. Thanks again for your input, I might ask you some more questions, if you don't mind. cheers Waaza

In books on Indian cuisine and forums, where chillies are used, it is more usual not to mention which type of chilli is recommended. Is this because it really doesn't matter? or the originator hasn't given it much thought? So, do you use specific varieties, and if so which ones? or do you use just whatever you can get hold of. I am particularly interested in uses in the Indian sub-continent rather than the US, but would welcome input from all over. I understand that the nams of the varieties is going to be a problem depending on where you are, but I'll have to sort that one out. Thanks cheers Waaza

Then I think we are talking about different things. Your hot oil method would produce fried onions (very dark around the extremities) whereas 'golden onions' are just that, they are not brown, and have very little water in them. This is important. We do not want the fried onion flavour or any water, as the next stage in the process must be done in oil. Sautéed onions contain too much water, with the consequences mentioned in a posting above. Golden onions can only be produced by gentle heat, there is no simple way around this, which is one reason why pukka curries take so long to cook, but as you say, why mess with perfection? You make a good point, its not all the dishes that are suspect, just those which are made from 'meat and sauce'. So dhals and bread and others are very similar, though they generally are simple and can't really be changed very much. Saag, of course, means greens in general, so mustard greens and kholrabi/turnip tops are all acceptable, palak suggests just spinach, though there are several kinds in India. What I (and others) are saying is that the 'meat and sauce' dishes that cover 90% of a typical 'curry house' menu are no more than that; a meat of your choosing (re!)heated with some of the base sauce and a few extras thrown in (like spices and veg or lentils). This is neither traditional Indian cooking practice or particularly appetising, to some of us. Each meat dish has its own (maybe?) unique mode of preparation, and along with different spices and other ingredients, help produce unique flavours. Not so the 'curry house specials' which, in my experience, taste so similar. So, to take an example you mention, rogan josh (and it is josh and not gosh, josh meaning heat/warming, and gosh, usually spelt gosht, meaning meat, usually lamb, …your rogan gosht would transliterate to "fatty meat" ) is made using a long slow braise, and is thought of as a korma, meaning a braised dish (and not sweet mild dish with coconut!). It is not a quick 'fry and a dollop of sauce' with tomatoes (to sub for the red colour) dish, no way. Chicken tikka is just chic bits on a stick, so not really much to mess up there. Butter chicken (originally just that) has had tomato and cream added in a pseudo-French fashion, and can be thought of as a (con)fusion dish. Rice dishes maybe similar, except the biryani, (which, in its original form, is parboiled rice layered with meat, nuts and spices, with saffron and other fragrances added) which, in a 'curry house' is pilau rice with 'meat of choice' and an insipid 'veg curry' which seems to be the same everywhere I've been. I would agree 100% about the greatness of the cuisine, IMHO there is nothing better (or more complex). The savvy restauranteur has had to mess with it, so that s/he can serve 'curry' quickly and cheaply, and make a profit, there are other ways, but I'm keeping them secret! I hope you take this reply in the spirit with which it is intended, that is, just a different point of view. Cheers Waaza

garam masala is a funny subject. The 'original' comes from Ayuveda texts, and is supposed to have a warming effect on the body, hence its name, usually translated as 'hot spices', except the 'warming' part is spiritual, rather than actual, did you ever get a warm feeling from just garam masala? I think the original texts list the following, black cardamom, cassia (both from China I think), black cumin, cloves and black pepper. Cassia is similar to cinnamom from Sri Lanka, except it has an open structure, rather than curled up, and its flavour is more savoury. I prefer it as it marries with other aromatics very well, and doesn't produce shards when put in the grinder. Many suppliers, especially in America confuse cassia and cinnamom, most of it is cassia. Black cumin is indigenous to N India, especially Kashmir & Jammu, and is collected from the wild. It must never be confused with, or substituted by caraway, which is often quoted in cookbooks as an Indian spice. I would suggest you make your own garam masala from green cardamom, cassia, cloves and mace only, adding freshly ground black pepper. Add it at the stage I suggested, this extracts the aromatics into the oil stage, where it remains to combine with water-based liquids later on to form the emulsion (the point just before the oil just starts to separate). If garam masala (or any strongly aromatic spice (think wood here!) is added at the end the essential oils will float on top of the gravy and be carried away by the bubbles of steam (much like salt is carried into the air at the seaside by wind and waves, salt being non-volatile, of course). The habit of adding garam masala at the end of the cooking process is quite modern, and not to be recommended, especially if bought gm is used, as these contain a high percentage of other (cheaper) spices like coriander. It is then not cooked, and can taste raw. The seeds need to be crushed before they impart any flavour, and become very bitter on roasting if you are not careful. Dried Methi leaves do impart quite a flavour (espeially if you buy them fresh and dry them yourself) but do not go too well with this dish, I would not add them. yes, quite right, only a little is used, say one of the star's segments, remove the seed. Most aromatic spices (the ones in garam masala) don't change much on roasting, (they are powerful enough!!) but coriander goes through a chemical change, and cumin does take-on a deeper flavour. There is a mixture of coriander and cumin (strangely called dhania/jeera!) that has the two spices ground together, its supposed to produce a different flavour, but I have yet to be convinced of that. HTH cheers Waaza

Thanks for the reply, Grub, I'm happy that you took my post as just trying to help, rather than to criticise. The reason I prefer the more 'authentic' approach (whatever that means in this context? ) rather than the 'British UK restaurant' curry approach is one of quality of product, rather than one of 'purity'. The more traditional methods of preparation, in my experience, always give a good product, and are usually based on good culinary (and scientifically sound) ideas. The methods used in Indian cooking are often complex, far more, in general, than even French cooking methods, though all are based on understandable techniques, such as braising, frying and grilling etc. Many curries use either coconut milk or yoghurt, I can't think of one that uses both (off the top of my head!) and is usually determined by geography (and therefore availability) rather than preference. So coconut in Kashmiri dishes (the original ones, anyway!) would not have been appropriate, as Kashmir and Jammu are about 1000 miles from the sea. So think yoghurt in the north and coconut milk in the south. By the way, if you like a little coconut, by all means add a little, at the end, or look at a dish called Xacuti (other spellings include shacuti and chacooti), it’s a kind of milder vindaloo with coconut, I think you might like it. This is one of the wonderful things about Indian cuisine, if one prefers something different to the norm, there is usually a dish to suit, and already worked out to get the most from the ingredients. I think potatoes in vindaloo are not authentic. It is too easy to say that they are put in 'restaurant' vindaloo because of peoples' (ie not from Goa) misconception that the aloo in this dish means potato. There are several dishes I have come across where potato is added (like dhansak) but I can't see why it is there, just because it is liked, I've concluded. I suggest you also consider a little home-made garam masala, and even fenugreek seed, sometimes I add a little star anise, (not so unusual as trade with China was rife, and it goes so well with pork) I would also suggest you roast the whole spices a little before cooling and grinding. This changes the coriander flavour (and cumin to a lesser extent) and produces a deeper, slightly nutty flavour that is welcomed in this dish. Yep, mix to a thick paste, and cover with thick cling film, as the aromatics are penetrating! Note, I would not roast spice mixes unless specifically suggested to do so in a good recipe. The misconception that all the mixes are roasted is not true, it changes the flavour, and not for the better in most cases. All of the aromatics are volatile (or we could not smell them!) so by heating them, we reduce the pungency, not increase it! no need to dry the moisture out of the onions, just use immediately; if allowed to stand for anytime, the enzymes in the onion start to work on the contents and produce off flavours and the chemicals in the vapours from the onion hydrolyse in water and form acids. That’s why our eyes are irritated when cutting onions, (blow the vapour away (with a fan), and no more tears! This is one of the reasons why we aim to cook out (as in golden onions) most of the water in the onion, it reduces the possibility of forming the 'boiled onion' flavours, and to achieve a state where only oil/fat remains in the pan. Together with the sugars produced from prolonged cooking (which breaks down the starch stored in the onion (as raw material for next year's growth)) the meat can then be browned and allowed to form other flavours with the sugars. How many curry recipes do you see sugar added? If the onions are cooked to golden, this will not be necessary. Also, do not discard the root end (not the roots themselves!) as this contains most of the sulphur-containing flavour compounds, make sure it is very finely chopped, though. I would leave any marinade clinging to the meat in place, it’s the cooked flavour you are after. Don't forget the bhuna stage, heat to dry the juices in the pan, then add a little water and repeat, it really makes a difference. Good luck, and please report back on what you did, and your results (a photo would be nice). HTH Cheers Waaza

Well, you asked for comments and suggestions, so here's my tupence-worth. I see your education took you along the path trod by most students, and was your introduction to 'so-called' Indian food. As you progress along this path of enlightenment, you will quickly learn that what you sampled was not Indian food at all. Please let me explain. The restaurants of Rusholme are like most (if not nearly all) those to be found in the UK. They were set up and run by people who were probably not from India, though they may have been descendants originally. What they offered then, (and it really hasn't changed much) is a cuisine that has been born out of a need to present a tasty, spicy dish, quickly, and to make profit (nothing wrong with the latter, the raison d'être of any business!). Unfortunately, what is on offer is neither Indian nor very nice, all the dishes are made from a common stock, so taste nearly the same. There are no standardised recipes used, and it is a lottery as to what one ends up with. However, all that can change if you 'do it yourself'. Firstly, I applaud your attempt; you bare all, and end up with something you say you like. That’s the good part. I would suggest that, although you like it, it isn't vindaloo as we know it, for these reasons: As you state correctly, the original recipe is Portuguese, in fact the original vin d'alhous still exists in Portugal, and as the name suggests, is a dish made with wine/vinegar and garlic, and pork. Essentially, this is a pork dish, and uses more strongly flavoured meat than maybe we are familiar with. Why? Because the flavours (from the spice) and vinegar (partly to counter-act the fatty pork) are very powerful, and less flavoursome meats will be over-powered by the other flavours. However, all is not lost, other meats can be substituted, like duck or other game birds, ostrich, and my favourite, kangaroo. Don't laugh, it really works, and why? The meat to use must be strong tasting and a little tough, so the marinating and long slow cooking help to break down the flesh to become mellow and tender. Here are my tips for you: The essence of this dish is meat (see above, but lets call it pork) which is marinated in spices and vinegar and garlic, and dried red chillies. The final result is a thick gravy (not a sauce, see later) in which is a tender meat which is tangy when bitten into. The chillies mellow with the spicing to produce a dish that is full of flavour and deeply satisfying. First of all, you will choose a meat that has flavour, so chicken breasts are not the best choice, and as chicken breasts only require a short cooking time, it will be tough by the time the gravy has mellowed). Cut the meat into bite sized pieces. Add spices (here you could use your own mixes, or one of the vindaloo spice pastes, which are not too bad, although you have no control over their content). Add finely chopped garlic and ginger (from the photos (they are a great help in determining your problems, by the way, well done) they are not small enough, they should be very finely cut to release the flavours and contribute to forming a gravy). Add the vinegar (originally wine vinegar would have been used, the Goans use coconut palm vinegar, known as toddy. An alternative is cider vinegar, but definitely not malt vinegar, or any which is too strong. I use home-made vinegar with red wine drags and elderberry juice). Add a touch of oil, this is to extract some of the flavours from those spices which are not extracted by water. Finally, add some crushed dried red chillies (leave the seeds in!), according to taste and availability, fresh ones don’t seem to give the same flavour to this dish. The meat is then marinated for 24 hours. This tenderises the meat, and adds moisture to meat which is probably too dry (when purchased). Now comes the cooking: Put oil in the pan, and heat to moderate (say 50% of maximum on most cookers). Add the finely chopped onion, (try to use medium sized grade 2 onions, they have more flavour and tend to have more sugar and less moisture (the onion flavour killer!). It must be diced much finer than in your photos, say 3mm dice or less. This is to enable the water to be fried out so that browning of the meat can happen. You state, quite correctly IMHO, that 'golden onions' take much longer than 5 minutes to cook, and I would agree, depending on temperatures it can take 15 to 20 minutes. Now, what do you think of cookbooks (and celebrity chefs for that matter) who say differently? Does it instil confidence? Once the onions have turned golden (from your photos, yours aren't anywhere near golden) add the marinated meat, but leave the liquid from the marinade in the bowl (I wouldn't use a tin, as lead acetate is soluble, and poisonous!). Cook the meat until all the liquid marinade around it has dried, and the juices that will come out of the meat dries as well. Continue heating on medium heat until the meat has browned. This will only happen if all the water has boiled away. In your recipe, you make a water based sauce in which you simmer the chicken, doesn't give much flavour to the chicken, does it? You should now have a pan with browned meat, and spices that are being extracted by the oil/fat. Now you can add the rest of the marinade liquor, cook until all the water/vinegar has gone. As soon as this happens, add a little more water, and continue frying until all that water has gone. This method is called bhuna, and helps to extract and develop deeper flavours than would be possible from just simmering with water-base sauces. After you have done this a few times, you can add a quantity of other water-based ingredients, like tomatoes and/or tamarind water. Now simmer until the meat is perfectly cooked, you determine this point, by the way, not the clock! Notes! Neither coconut nor yoghurt is added to vindaloo The vinegar should have been boiled away, only the tang inside the meat gives a clue to its use. You should end up with tender tangy meat in a thick, spicy and chilli-hot (to your tastes, of course) gravy. It will be dark brown in colour, and quite pungent. It is best served along with other curries/dishes, as the flavours (and heat) are really too powerful for a large portion. It keeps well in the fridge, and re-heats just as well. I hope this helps you on your road to 'curry' enlightenment. The info is given as help, and in no way as a criticism of your efforts. Please try it, it's a lot easier to do than to write cheers Waaza ps I'd ditch the wooden spoon, absorbs flavours, try metal or plastic