thomasrodgers

A short lament for the past charm of zorba's on edgware road, if only to jog some memories. naming a restaurant after a dog who died in a fire, AND serving decent fish and chips, sadly was not enough to keep it in business...

Just want to add my tuppence-worth... Franco Manca is by far and away the best pizza I have had not just in London, but outside of Italy. As far as post below goes, hard to tell whether something really 'went wrong' or you just don't like that style of pizza (although in fairness the base shouldn't be soggy, and never has been when I've eaten there, so maybe there was something wrong... although as your gf liked it, who knows). In any case, I've eaten there lots and never been disappointed. It's also exactly the kind of place that London needs more of - cheap and cheerful, and all about the food's excellence and integrity. Yes it's in Brixton Yes it's next to the smelly market on Electric Ave (which I happen to love, but horses for courses i guess) Yes it's only open for lunch And yes, it is miraculously cheap! But, truly, this place is awesome in it's simplicity, honesty and integrity. Frankly, it wipes the floor of Red Pepper in Maida Vale which is mentioned up-post (and which I like, so no sour grapes here), and it comes in at well under half the price. And as for the gripe about the 'inauthentic' chorizo; I think that's really a little petty, especially from someone who hasn't tasted the pizzas in question, and also, as pizza napoletana indicates, really a little naive if it's a criticism of 'authenticity'. Maybe the paprika is 'inauthentic', although it is used in some regions of Italy in cured pork products (the Spanish had their fingers in many pies back in the day, as did the Moors before them)... In any case, you can be assured it's not the kind of operation to go in for a sloppy fall-back compromise or slaving to fashion when it puts porcini on a pizza, teaches English farmers to make mozzarella and flies over Neapolitan artisans to build its ovens! And all of that is done not in the name of trendiness or tradition or faux-authenticity, but just to make the best pizzas possible. Laudable. Anyway, all I'd say is go and try it if you can, it's worth it.

As the breadth of the replies to Andy's article shows, I think the matter of the role that religion plays in our diet (and vice versa) is perhaps a little more complex than his article indicates. This is in no way intended as a criticism of the piece, which I heartily enjoyed, and which in any case I suspect was penned more to provoke thought and debate than to give a definitive interpretation. But... I'm not sure what benefit is to be had from muddying the waters by confusing a personal rejection of religious belief with reasoned debate about the way religion has informed humanity's relationship with food, and indeed the way food has informed religious practice. Sure, an agnostic position could easily lead to a wholesale rejection of the many observances, prescriptions and restrictions of any or all given religions, but I believe that to do so is to miss a trick. Why should saying you have no reason to believe in the existence of God (or proof to disprove it) mean that there can be no value in any of the practices or beliefs advocated or adopted by religions around the world, including dietary impositions? Isn't that just shooting yourself in the foot -after all, the wisdom or otherwise of humanity throughout the ages survived for the greatest part in religious texts and observances (a veritable tragedy according to this agnostic, as any wisdom was subject to the distorting lens of religious power-games, irrationalityand bigotry, but that does not change the fact that religion for better or worse has been the receptacle of much human knowledge. Just look at the appropriation of the age-old and food-oriented celebration of the winter solstice by the Babylonians, Romans and Christians to name but three religious guises: the feast of the son of Isis, Saturnalias and Christmas, anyone?). So what religions say about food is of great anthropological value at the very least and, I would have thought,a mine of information and stimulation to anyone interested in food as a subject. Simply dismissing religious dietary restrictions as "purely a construct of religion, a simple way to help delineate one faith from another" doesn't tell the whole story, a story that stretches back as far as humanity has had to interact with nature to eat and drink, and which predates by millenia the advent of the religions which survive today. This is the crux of the matter. In view of today's gastronomic climate, which places intrinsic value on terroir produce and seasonality, isn't it interesting that Lent, coinciding with the most fallow time of year when the spring and summer crops were yet to be harvested, the winter ones were running low, and rising temperatures called for the rapid consumption of even those meats that had been preserved over the cold weather, when those animals that had survived the cold had to be kept alive to produce the next generation (not so fish, however, available year-round)... isn't it interesting, and illustrative of our alienation from the processes of nature which get the food we eat into our supermarkets, that ancient human responses to our environment such as Lent, can be dismissed as 'purely a construct of religion'?

Good to see this thread back up and running. Brings a warm glow to my belly... I was fairly convinced it had popped its clogs, but it seems all the enthusiastic charcutiers were only snoozing these last few months, or, even better, getting on with some serious sausage-making and curing. It does seem a shame, though, that if we want to all meet up and chat like this we have to stick with this mangy old dog of a thread. I was thinking maybe there should be a subsection in the cooking forum for meat curing, or something like that. Any suggestions? Maybe if we all PM relevant organisers or hosts in a concerted pressure campaign we won't be so afraid of starting new threads that just get lost. I mean, it seems we all care enough about cured meat to keep checking this thread even after months of inactivity, so I reckon we'd definitely warrant at least a subsection or something. Fight the power!

Coming in very late, but no-one mentioned Tartiflette when you were after bacon recipes. Best in winter, but always good... and seeing how you have an abundence of potatoes, seems a good match.

What have we done... How ironic that this thread could turn to bite the hand that feeds it. We've created a MONSTER... A remedy hopefully - you can't get much simpler than this: Generously rub some pork bellies with a 75/25 mix of salt and sugar along with any spices you fancy, stack them in a covered plastic or wooden box. Store in a cool place for 5-7 days, and you have bacon. Easy, no science degree required...

Great set-up, I'm highly envious.

Beautiful pictures jackal, thanks. The saucisson looks great too. Is that a pizza oven your smoking in - lucky you. I've had fanciful thoughts of wood-fired ovens recently, but no money and live in rented house in london = no oven. Did you manage to keep the temperature down while you were smoking? I haven't done any smoking myself yet but there's a smoker in the pipeline I hope (at the back of a long line including incubator, maturing fridge and paying my mum back...) Having pancetta but not being able to smoke it is just torture. What kind of wood did you use? Chips or sawdust? Did you have to attend to the smoker often or could you let it be? Don't forget to let us know when it's ready, with more pictures. If there's one thing to learn from home charcuterie it's that patience really is a virtue.

Good to hear you managed to salvage some of the bacon. I always like to hear of a bit of thrifty work... My first salame, which was a partial success (didn't make me ill, not entirely pleasant...) did have a slightly brownish look as well. They had dried too quickly in the attic (too warm and not humid enough), I think, and were practically solid round the outside but still soft and moist in the middle. Not ideal. Since that I've moved experiments to the garden shed, which seems more humid, although it fluctuates more in temperature. Maybe the garage could do with a little humidity? Water on radiators? Also, you didn't mention an incubation period in the description of your salame-making. Basically, to give the lactobacillus culture a kickstart (I believe it also helps with the colour) it's suggested you hang the salame first in a warm place (I've heard various indications between 15-30C) for anything from 24 to 48 hours. The last lot of bacon I made, which I'm still working my way throuhg, I gave this treatment (25C or so for 36 hours) and it turned out very well. A little salty, but the error for that must lie elsewhere. In fact, as it's been hanging in the shed for over a month now, I've taken to eating slivers of it like ham. mmmmmmmm... Does anyone have any tips for less salty dry-cure bacon that will last? Or is this an impossible dream? Tom

Jackal, Sorry to hear about your bacon, but at least your salami are looking good. Just a thought, but reading the linked recipe you used for bacon, I was surprised that the bellies seemed to be left to cure uncovered on a table. All reipes I have ever read call for the belly pieces to be stacked in a large non-reactive container and weighted down. The flies might have gotten it at that stage, otherwise before smoking as jsolomon suggests, or maybe even between slaughter and refrigeration (although you'd hope not). I'm curious to know where you hang your salami. Do you know the humidity? The temperature seems perfect. How long are you going to hang for? Tom

Hello Ore, (and everyone else) Hope all your travelling's going well. I'd love to hear what different kinds of salame/prosciutto/pancetta you made in Italy. I'm also interested to understand why you think that the addition of chemicals is necessarily bad? Being a bit of a traditionalist, I am definitely of the opinion that the simpler the better. But mine is a position borne probably more of prejudice aginst the new and love of the old than due to any real wisdom from experience. Also, what qualifies as a chemical in your book. After all, when we talk about chemicals isn't salt as much of a chemical as potassium nitrate, which, as far as I can tell, has been used traditionally for centuries. My uncle scrapes it off rock outcrops near his house to use as fertiliser! I guess for me the real measures are ease of production, health and above all TASTE. If it's possible to make a simpler saucisson that tastes as good or better than one full of nitrates and starter cultures, so much the better, but personally, when it comes to spending my not so plentiful money I just want to be sure I'll have something delicious (or at least edible) at the end of it. Finally, I'm guessing that the place where you worked, had an ageing room full of other cured products, the walls and air of which would have been heavy with the kind of bacteria needed and whose temperature and humidity were either controlled or naturally stable. Unfortunatley my garden shed probably has several years to go til then, so in the meantime starter cultures (I use health-food shop-bought acidophilus) seem like a good idea. But then again, this is fear of spoilage talking, not experience. Your advice and thoughts would be really helpful. Thanks, Tom

Jason and jsolomon, thanks for dexrose info. I know that this is very technical, but do you know what the dextrose is broken down into? Does anyone have a (comprehensible, preferably) description of the chemical reactions that go on?

Eternal apologies to the Great Grigson... I didn't mean to turn anyone off buying her book altogether, in fact I happily recommend it, just wanted maybe to indicate what it is and isn't good for. What it will do is give you loads of ideas and recipes. What it didn't do in my case was help me understand what is actually happening when meat cures and what I have to do to remedy any dificulties and imperfections. I guess by sausage making you mean fresh sausages. sausagemaking.org is a good place to start. Check out Len Poli's website at home.pacbell.net/lpoli/ , and Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall's River Cottage Cookbook has a small section on sausagemaking and curing. Grigson is probably as close to a definitive tome as I've come accross, though. For what it's worth, the first sausages I made my only equipment was a mezzaluna and chopping board for mincing, a plastic funnel and wooden spoon handle for stuffing, and my hands. Not the easiest way of doing it, and pretty labour-intensive (do you know how long it takes to mince a whole shoulder and half a belly by hand?!) but it can be done. I guess I'm trying to say that enthusiasm and a can-do attitutude will get you a long way. I have since upgraded to a hand-cranked Porkert cast-iron mincer, complemented by their standard stuffing attachments. I'm sure that electric versions would be much handier, but I'm happy for my money (£29) at the moment. If you do go with Porkert, the plate mine came with minced too fine for fresh sausage for my liking, so get hold of some wider gauge plates as well. Stuffing is a trial and error thing, quite fun really, all I'd say is get a friend to help. Good luck to you and ask away if you want more. Tom

Forgot to ask, anyone with opinions on use of dextrose in dry-cured sausage? What does it do, how does it help (ie. role in curing process rather than flavour)? Cheers, Tom

Charcutier, thanks for the endorsement! Let me know how the bacon goes down - would be interested to hear your cure mix and cure/ageing times. You're right to raise the issue of animal welfare/quality of meat in support of home-curing. For those who care about animal welfare this is a huge advantage. Although most people are at least aware of the plight of the battery chicken , many don't realise that pigs are raised intensively under comparable conditions, and are probably worse affected given their relative intelligence (similar to that of the domestic dog - they can with a little effort be trained to distinguish and respond to distinct commands). I have no interest in engaging in an ethical debate here, but having a choice over what you eat is what it boils down to (of course, hopefully everyonre is making an informed choice ) Getting down from my high horse, home-curing also gives you control over quality (especially relevant with regards to sausage products, which, being minced can come from the most dubious cuts and quality of meat, of which the consumer remains ignorant til their chewing on straggles of sinew and gristle). Not to mention you can make it as you like it and eat it when it's ready, not when its profitable. Jason, would you follow the same route with guanciale as for pancetta - longer or shorter time in the salts? What do you add to the cure? I've heard it makes the best carbonara and would love to try make some. Also, how long do you hang your pancetta for (if at all)? First time I tried it I left it only a few days, but have been advised to go for a full three weeks this time - . Finally, is that lomo on the left of your plate of wonders, below the salame? Looks like a bit of the loin in any case . Info would be gratefully received. Personally, I'd always take a 'pur porc' saucisson over anything else (with the exception of boar and donkey - which I've only eaten never made). I just find aged curing does more for pork than it does for beef. As for saltpetre, I'm with Jason. I think it would be foolhardy to use no nitrates/nitrites at all. Can I ask why Predika warns against saltpetre? If you're making your own cure mix you can add a starter culture like acidopholis as well, which you can get in capsules in healthfood shops over in the UK (guess in US too). This will promote the lactobacillus cultures you're looking for. (Don't be scared, the theory is more complicated than the practice). On the subject of saltpetre (which is just potassium nitrate), I've read conflicting reports on its function. These vary from no curing properties at all, just colour-preserving, through claims it has minimal curing action that needs to be supplemented by nitrites, to claims that the nitrate is converted to nitrite in the curing process. Any feedback (+ sources) would be appreciated. Does anyone have the latest edition of Mcgee and does it shed any light?Alternatively, Mr. Mcgee, if you're out there somewhere, please get in touch . Finally, a word of warning re: Grigson. Much as I love her book, indeed all her books, the charcuterie one was the first she wrote (I think) and is in any case a little antiquated and at times vague. Great for ideas and inspiration, I'd venture, but I've found it slightly lacking when it comes to reassuringly detailed explanations of procedure with regards to dry-curing. (Which I suppose is also part of its charm). Sorry, another short-post-turned-monster, I'll try harder... Hope some of this may be helpful to someone. Tom