MaxH

... The last several generations have been raised on Coca-Cola and sugary cereals. Now they aren't only all obese and suffering from diabetes, but their tastes in wine have been forever tainted ... There's more to that. Without disputing that people in North America (among other regions) lean too far on sweet drinks, on the other hand this is an instinctive behavior. We are born to discern sweet (and edible) fruit from sour (unripe) or bitter (toxic) flavors. To appreciate fermented juice (which in the wild means overripe, spoiled) is uninstinctive, learned behavior. People have to acquire a taste for wine; they are born with a taste for fruit juices (and their various modern stand-ins). Also the negative side of broad-brush rejections of Merlot is that they overlook what the grape variety can do in good or classic examples. (You may find that the newer the expert, the broader the brush.) -- Max -- "... drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

I agree with much of what Brad posted but -- keeping in mind that I know a different set of people -- I seriously have never met anyone who disdains these wines because it is fashionable to do so. I've known people (continuously) who disliked California Chardonnays because they had tried wines of that grape from other places and found many California products mechanistically over-oaked and stylistically limited. And people who disdained White Zinfandel throughout its limited history, because they found it dull and sweet. These are complaints of substance, not fashion. (I do agree these wines may get some people interested, and thus gradually contribute to narrowing the gap in wine consumption between the US and the "wine-drinking" countries. During just my own wine-drinking experience this has changed from around 1:12 to maybe 1:8, when comparing the consumption per capita in the same set of countries in the Wine Institute data.)

Very real. Until around 1980, the Merlots that most wine drinkers in the US heard about were not called Merlots, they were called Pomerols or some other geographical name from the regions that popularized this grape. Or they were blended with Cabernets and others. Harvey Steiman's article in November 1981, "Merlot -- the coming red revolution" -- I still have copies on file! -- was one that marked the new growth of marketing this grape variety on its own. A few excellent and a lot of insipid, highly inoffensive wines have come from it since. I find many experienced red-wine drinkers turned off from it very naturally, for that reason. Last night, one of them said that Merlot had become the latest "white zinfandel" -- another symbol -- and asked "why can't they make white merlot?"

The following side point, to the good information in these articles, may not interest every dim sum fan. But the opening assertions in the first article are of a form to raise red flags to the occasional reader who actually is interested in their points, and who reads modern food journalism: We live in the dim sum capital of the country. ... where the best dim sum in the country can now be found. ... we don't just have the most dim sum, we have the hippest, hottest dim sum — the most sophisticated and creative in the U.S. If any of that is actually true -- and it may be! -- it would be helpful if the authors showed it. (There's no serious comparison with anywhere else in the US -- so we have only conclusions from no data, giving it a marketing-speak look. Not a look of high respect for the reader.) Not exactly unique to this article, of course. This is routine on Internet forums also. "Such-and-such is clearly the best Pho restaurant in town" with no hint that the author has seen any other. (When such writers do know what they are talking about, it would be helpful if they shared that with us!) Sorry, I'm rambling also. -- Max

Seems like a recent explosion in LA (a region known for rapid changes, and flourishing restaurant scenes). Prior to that "20-year" boom, the prominent Cantonese-émigré community in the US had been, for the previous 135 years, in San Francisco (see famous trivia in quotation below). There, the bustling carts in the thousand-seat tea houses were a way of life, emulated in some other communities as time went by. (At the venerable Canton Tea House in SF, one of the heated carts exploded 20 or 25 years ago, from its portable butane tank, but otherwise the dim sum houses were a low-key institution.) In Hong Kong (surely the world capital for such tea meals) the definition of what is edible is broader than you usually see even in cosmopolitan dim-sum restaurants in the US. (Tripe and jellyfish are fancy bourgeois stuff by Chinese dim-sum standards …) --Max -- In the United States legal measures against drug abuse were first established in 1875, when opium dens were outlawed in San Francisco. - Harris and Levey, Eds., The New Columbia Encyclopedia (1975).

Melkor, sorry to hear about the disappointing experience. I hope that you'll have a chance to visit again. (I don't know the place, I was last there in the Brad Ogden days or thereabouts -- 18 or 20 years ago). The following is probably unnecessary and not defending C. P., but of course all restaurants have off days, even way off. I remember posting notes on a promising Santa Clara County restaurant (Chez TJ) on an Internet food forum in 1991, noting that I had only eaten there twice, so did not assume that I had the measure of the place. (As it turned out, that restaurant did prove consistent and positive.) Matt Kramer in Portland used to visit each restaurant three times (incognito) before commenting publicly; Mimi Sheraton, later in NYC, five times. Over the years I've seen small and large problems in restaurants in a great many different locations in the US and elsewhere. I thought only three experiences (about 0.1%) were bad enough to really drive someone away for good. (All three by the way were in the SF Bay Area, and all were very bad faux-pas by management personnel who had evident professional weaknesses.) (Batting .999 is not all that bad, as things in life go.) -- Max

That's pretty usual when career actors handle specialized activities. A good example for any of you old enough to remember it is the popular US TV show Sea Hunt from the late 50s and early 60s, with Lloyd Bridges -- which popularized SCUBA diving overnight in the US, and also at the time scared the beejeebers out of a few million young kids including me -- Lloyd Bridges became identified to the public with SCUBA. Yet in an interview that I read much later, he admitted that he and the other actors were not divers at all, they relied on professional divers off-camera who practically held their hands throughout, and directors who would tell them, for example, to struggle as if fighting underwater, and make a lot of bubbles. It worked.

Thanks for clarifying. That raises the standard, but at the same time opens up the field. Coincidentally last night at dinner, before that was posted, I opened a bottle of 1997 Domaine Joblot Givry “Clos du Cellier aux Moines” (Premier Cru designation), still with its price tag, $27.99 (when it was current in the market, and abundantly available); semi-closed now, needs a little time, though it opened and blossomed in the glass after an hour or two. (Not a “trophy” wine to impress one-uppers with its brand name, but if they tasted it blind I think they’d find it “decent.”) Here already we see one element that many followers of Burgundy will likely mention: Givry is in the Challonaise, and it is in such less-widely-known, less-brand-named parts of Burgundy, though not just there, that values will be likely. (The next factoid on the minds of many Burgundy fans is that PC and GC status are useful to know about but are not exact quality guides, and some lieus dits without such status may produce comparable, and maybe better-valued, wines.) Other, more recent examples I know include 2001 Corton Grand Cru “Les Renardes,” Dom. Prince de Mérode, $46; 2001 Morey St. Denis Premier Cru “La Riotte,” Olivier Jouan, $30. Just as with the search for exceptional wines under simple labels like Bourgogne Rouge, I repeat my point that finding them is less a matter of specific producer, or magic other formula, than a process of learning the territory and, especially, watching out for the values as they surface. For what it’s worth -- Max

What??? What are you reading? I have eagerly sought Bourgognes Rouges for 25+ years and don't think I ever spent that much, even for more than decent. (Here I refer to the specific appelation "Bourgogne Rouge" or others related to it in practice -- "Hautes Côtes de Beaune," minor village wines, etc.) A year or two ago I put a list on the WCWN site, of 15 years of wines of these appelations, all bought in the US for under $20 and some for $10, and some of them outstanding wines even apart from value. This doesn't address the question of how you find such wines which is a different matter. Addressed successfully in my experience by a process, rather than a formula. That is, keeping an eye (and nose) on the market, tasting promising prospects, and when the components for a good wine seem to be right, buying them and storing them properly for the usual couple or few years to hit their evident potential. And they do! Some of them exceed hopes! This is why some of the best values I've found in moderately-priced reds over the years have been B-R's. -- Max -- Santé, gaieté, espérance! (French wine poster)

Of course as many people will realize, some young children have been going into Bay Area restaurants (and thriving there) for many years, this did not begin with a specific newspaper article (any more than traveling for food did, or other things suddenly topical via publications). But to give my own experience, year or so ago I was getting together with some old friends at Manresa in Los Gatos, and two of them wanted to bring their three-year-old daughter who is an omnivore. I was a little unsure if it would work out, but she had a great time. (Marching back to the kitchen at one point to thank them for a pasta dish they whipped up for her.) Someone mentioned that one family regularly brought a two-year-old to the same restaurant and ordered the regular many-course tasting menu for her! Also, these are children who are at ease in restaurants, and who get along well with everybody while dining. (Adult children can do this for their parents too, by the way.)

Keep in mind when reading replies on any thread about "Mendocino" that some people are responding about specific parts of it and may not realize how ambiguous and diverse are the meanings of "Mendocino." The town of Mendocino on the coast is sharply distinct in many ways from the coastal hills and interior valleys. Many people who know the region think well of the Anderson Valley, one of the important subregions, stretching from the interior to the coast. Here's something I posted elsewhere in 2003 about that. If you travel from Sonoma County to the Mendo Coast via Hwy 128 (Cloverdale to Navarro via Boonville and Philo) you are seeing the Anderson Valley, a gem of a micro-region and mercifully uncrowded (like the whole North Coast was just a couple decades ago). That valley includes several quiet but accompished wineries, I'll mention specifically Roederer Estate (which did as much as anyone to elevate the California sparkling wine industry, under the guidance of outgoing founding director Michel Salgues) and next to it, the tiny and very friendly Lazy Creek Vineyards, which manages to sell out all of its highly personal Pinots Noirs (Chandler family, lazycreekvineyards.com, 707 895 3623, call before you go, they even have a guest house though it may not be advertised). En route, if possible, stay at the Boonville Hotel, 707 895 2210, very classic country inn, seven rooms upstairs plus cottage, I've stayed in all of them over the years, some have big tubs (#1 2 3 5 7), #3? has a skylight; but the dining downstairs is famous, again simple, fresh, casual, very interesting, excellent wine list or you are encouraged to visit any of the 20 or 30 local wineries and bring in your own. Ownership of the Boonville Hotel includes the Schmitt family, regionally famous in the food world, previous owners of the French Laundry in Yountville. When the Boonville's restaurant is closed (or even if not) there is a charming friendly inventive casual restaurant down the street 100 yards or so, Lauren's, she was former innkeeper at the Boonville, and staff and other locals eat there. Sorry their menus are elsewhere right now or I would quote, but I had recently a glorious hamburger with caramelized onions and other garnishes and some of the best French fries I've experienced, good enough to make French people set up and take notice (they did, Salgues from Roederer estate and some French guests, that's what they ordered that day). The town of Mendocino on the coast is enough atypical of the county to make it important in discussions about "Mendocino" whether the county or, as many casual or weekend visitors assume instead, the specific town is under discussion. Hey, I almost forgot Hopland! On 101 south of Ukiah (the county seat) and site of several food-and-drink institutions including the home of the Mendocino Brewing Company at the old Hopland Brewery -- the first of what became many brewpubs in California after the law was changed, and creators of Red Tail Ale, which for its first several years was available only at the brewery, in 52-ounce crown-cap bottles. -- MaxH

Krys, I take it that this summary of your experience there refers to the San Francisco shop, which is, I believe, the second location of K & L. The link that you posted is to the firm's central Web site, much of which comes from the home store in Redwood City. (I am just a customer there, if anyone from K & L can correct me here, please do so.) I have not visited the SF shop but have dealt with Redwood City for 10 years.K&L's overall operation (two retail shops and fulfillment center) has wide and consistent respect among many wine enthusiasts in the US, as far as I can tell. The firm ships extensively out of the region, and it was proactive in Internet marketing, at a time when most notable wine dealers did not even have "passive" Web sites. That may have helped to establish its following. This firm is also one of the several notable sites around the Bay Area to offer long-term temperature-controlled wine storage in assorted sizes. -- MaxH

Nice piece of work, Krys, thanks. The South and South-East parts of the Bay Area are teeming with lively specialty "ethnic" ingredients shops (mirroring the rich population of "ethnic" restaurants). Lately a European/Mediterranean specialty-foods place opened on San Antonio near Middlefield, for example; I sampled some of their wares via a friend who has written the place up. The Mercury News list has some of this, but the number of good sources is amazing. (It's especially handy for the consumer when, for instance, nearby quality Indian spice shops begin bickering and competing with each other to sell good Spanish saffron in ounce cans -- $24, $23, $21 -- happened not too long ago.) Cheers -- Max

I recently got the new edition of this, titled New California Wine (ISBN 0762419644), and am starting to read it. (Like some other people, I knew of Kramer first through his writing on food, when he was a witty dining critic in Oregon in the 1970s; some of his lines from then remain quotable, or at least hard to forget.) But the new book begins by explaining that when his previous version appeared in 1992, “the now-famous `explosion’ in prices and marketing -- the invention of `cult’ Cabernets; the proliferation of tiny labels selling for $50 to $100 a bottle -- had not yet occurred.” That’s crucial history in a nutshell. Please don’t anyone lose sight, when discussing the phenomena listed in that sentence, that they belong to a specific period, and group of devotees. In my own experience, many of the latter came to an interest in fine wine as the new phenomena were occurring. I do know a few California wine enthusiasts, and of those whose enthusiasm predated the phenomena Kramer mentioned, I can’t think of any who embraced them. Also incidentally, and this is only my experience, I believe I’ve heard the term “east-coast palate” so far only from those who identify themselves as east-coast people. -- Max

Not at all. It's not uncommon among people I've met in the West who've experienced a wide range of wines. (Not everyone experiences a wide range of wines before expressing opinions on which they prefer.) Also, it used to be common for people throughout the US, even California, when wanting to learn wine in earnest, to start with the more established, stable, documented styles of the older regions. Lately, many in the Western US start learning via their regional wines and I've seen little reasoned discussion of why (much more general information is available about old-world styles, if people want to learn wine in general). Do residents of Hungary start learning wines through Tokaj? I don't know.Actually, looking beyond the relatively recent fashions for fruit bombs and "BIG" California wines to the high-end winemakers there who put the place on the map, there was stylistic experimentation and great respect for the old world. In the great California varietals of the 1950s-1970s I found some of the same elegance and terroir that I too, for what it's worth, find from the original wine-producing regions. --Max

Terroir varies in how central it is to winemakers in different regions. California is peculiar in its rapid development. Probably it is still true (as it was 20 years ago) that the vast majority of wineries are so young, if they were human they could not legally buy their products. (Age 21 required there.) Concepts of a "California Palate" have evolved over time, with waves of new consumers. In 1980 (back when the US had multiple competing specialty wine newsletters) Robert Finigan explored the subject in depth, I still have his articles. And there was the completely separate development, centered circa 1994, of the new high prices in California wines and the "cult" products with mailing lists and their "flippers." I happen to like good Pinots Noirs especially (and most of those I buy, but not all, are from Burgundy), but that preference formed maybe 25 years ago, which was when I started buying them seriously. (I've lived on both east and west US coasts -- two states each -- as a wine-enthusiast adult.) Agreed, that is part of his role. I certainly didn't aim to "reinvigorate" Parker discussions, you don't know how acquainted I am with them. I thought he'd been discussed to death on Internet forums by 1987 or so. However, people continue to arrive on the Internet and not know about the previous discussions and so they need to do it over, and over, again. Cheers -- Max

A penetrating observation I think. It may not show up in any particular forum, but anecdotally he gets plenty of criticism here on the west coast too (I'm writing from Northern California) including among retail trade in private (whatever they may be obliged to say in front of customers with money to spend who arrive demanding, sometimes rudely, the wines scored high by RP).But surely the picture is more complex than just a relative quantity of criticism? -- Max

I don't know, Fat Guy -- I am no veteran of this forum so it may be out of place to say this, though I have participated in Internet food forums for some time (22 years or so) and known a few people in various states and countries whom most folks here would likely consider to have experienced culinary artistry and even sought it out, and I have sensed some range of personal reactions to the particular language of "culinary arts society." I'm sure you've considered that. I assume that membership among the lost or the philistines is not a requirement for differing on language or brand names. I mention this because the lines above stress the specific label, rather than the spirit that I take to be behind it. -- MaxH

This kind of thing can be an issue, the more so with moderately-priced NV sparklers. 20-25 years ago, when much or most of the premium Meth. Champ. sparkling wine from California was made by Domaine Chandon, that firm offered two regular NV products, the Brut and the Blanc-de-Noirs. From year to year, though not vintage-labeled, the two would shift noticeably. In years when the Brut was rich and well fruited the B-de-N might seem a little cloying, but when the Brut was austere, the B-de-N could be more balanced. That's how I recall it, anyway; but the point is that people expressing a consistent preference for one or the other would sometimes forget that even (or especially) "NV" wines are made from different grapes, year to year.By the way, Dom. Chandon has increased its production volume radically since those days. -- Max

Wow. People interested in food have of course traveled for the purpose for a long time, without need of buzzwords or boasts. I wonder if such an article (and possible sequelae) will have any concrete effects. Might it stimulate this activity? Or might there be a backlash or something? (I remember hearing of complaints a few years ago from Latin Europe, begging for a moratorium on Anglophone tourists buying old houses, fixing them up, and writing books about it -- after Peter Mayle's publication of A Year in Provence evidently ignited a fad.) -- Max

Interesting! This is exactly what you said to do before Yom Kippur! ← I missed that original suggestion but on the guess that it was serious and well intended, and not ironic, safety suggests pointing out something if no one else has done so yet here. If you will check just a little, you may find that the advice above is seriously obsolete and dangerous. Here for example is a link to an exchange preserved on the Google newsgroup archive about "the liver toxicity issues with alcohol/acetaminophen". You may wish to view the adjacent postings also. Lipton teaches chemistry at Purdue University and responded to an original poster, who proposed a therapy like that above. Or you may wish to search on your own (spelling acetaminophen carefully). That is what the original poster did, in the exchange I linked, and here was the follow-up: "I must apologize for my lack of awareness on this. I just did a quick Google search and had enough material in 5 seconds to read for a week. No more acetaminophen 'therapy' for this wine drinker. Ibuprofen does not usually help me, but I will definitely be trying it again." To my understanding by the way, the physiology of hangover is a mixture of simple dehydration with slow release of toxic products from the liver. I have seen one mild herbal medication that seems to offer some help with this, milk-thistle seed or its extract. It's the active ingredient in some newer commercial hangover cures also. It's said to support liver function, and first-person reports I know of were positive. You do need to start taking it while drinking, I believe. It's the first thing I've seen that stands out from the rehashing of old notions on the subject, which you can find expressed with conviction on any beverages forum this time of year. Hope this is useful. -- MaxH Edit to remove a spurioius linefeed.

I am wondering why no one I have read on the subject so far (and I have not read the reviews comprehensively, but this thread is an example), not to mention the introduction and acknowledgement sections of the book (in my quick read of them anyway) is mentioning the most prominent thing about this book, to people interested in US cookbooks. It is the NEW, or revised, Gourmet Cook Book. The established Gourmet Cook Book, edited by Earl MacAusland and published by Rand-McNally in 1950, with various supplements and revisions, was bought in such numbers that it's been prominent in US used bookstores for many years. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of copies of the original book in circulation outnumbers the new one and stays that way for some time. Albeit written at a different time and with different priorities, and of course a different population of issues of Gourmet from which to draw. But neither the title nor the introductory matter in the new book ("60 years in the making," implying that it overlapped the production of the original -- or maybe just referring to issues of Gourmet magazine) -- does any comparison or contrast or even reference to the original at all, that I have found. (I'd be happy to learn of any.) In the case of reviews that I've seen so far, the situation is similar. This is eerie, and probably seems so to many people who have been accustomed to referring to the Gourmet Cook Bookfor many years, and now hear people talking about the same title, meaning a completely different work. I am not talking here about the content of the new book, only its context. May we look forward now to new editions of, say, Marcus Gavius Apicius, or the Guide Culinaire, or the Joy of Cooking, edited by new people, with no mention of their forebears that made these names? ←

Who was this "Dr. Nadeau," in what Boston publication did he appear, and when? I'll answer as well as I can at the moment, but first, to put this into perspective, let me repeat something I put on a New Orleans food site some time back. To a general question there about San Francisco dining, I gave some sources and added: You can always search for the writings of the Generally Accepted Principal Food Critic (GAPFC) in that particular region. (I have found this helpful when visiting many places. Many.) For SF I believe it's still Michael Bauer of the Chronicle. (Certainly before him it was Sesser and Unterman, in the 1980s into the 90s, and before them, Seymour Whitelaw in the 1970s. They're all in my clippings files.) These people always get dumped on by the public a bit, and sometimes with reason; but if they are any good they still provide a vital service. In that spirit, a GAPFC for Boston in the 1970s and early 1980s (possibly longer, I don't know) was a person whose real name I've forgotten, and whose book I can't find at the moment, sorry about that -- it was a while ago and I don't have as much on Boston as the SF area and some others -- but he sometimes used the nom-de-plume of "Dr. Nadeau." As he put it in one retrospective piece, "In those days there were just three dining critics writing in Boston, and I was two of them." Some of his writing was more memorable than his actual name. (A quick Google check was unhelpful, and crowded by one or more recent real Dr. Nadeaus.) One restaurant chapter in that writer's popular book on Boston restaurants (which I bought there in 1979, I think) was "Corporate concepts" (planned, sometimes mini-chains, sometimes with high standards). A phrase I thought useful and trenchant. Yes, and other people have asked about that too (I've seen KC named by others also, not just in Boston). It may have been the steakhouses. Not long ago at a long, pleasant restaurant meal in the SF bay area, I talked about this issue with some visitors from KC who are food fanatics and travel around a bit. Their comments were similar to yours. (N.B., I gather you weren't one of them.) It was a memorable dinner, I ended up chatting with a visiting British journalist who perked up at a mention of the Ealing-Studios comedy movies, especially Passport to Pimlico (which finally came out in recording a few years ago and by now is probably even on DVD). Cheers -- Max

Opinions on his statement, understandably, written in 1988 ... and today? ← Gault and Millau, of course, invented and popularized the "Nouvelle Cuisine" some years before Forbes's statement so let us hope he knew more about LA restaurants when he wrote it than about culinary history. I am a native of Northern California with connections to Southern and though I am not up on the current dining scene around LA, plenty of fellow Northern Californians who are up on it defer to it as being, today, one of the most serious and vibrant restaurant milieus worldwide. It did not have the same reputation a few decades ago, when dining critics such as Boston's "Dr. Nadeau" routinely cited the traditional Dining Cities of the US and these did not include LA. (Nadeau gave them as NYC, N'Orleans, Chicago, Kansas City, and San Francisco.) That was then, this is now.

I should add that I wasn't kidding in my respect for real allergies. As a diner I carry three dry medications and, under prescription, an emergency injector, to deal with my own various limitations with foods (none of them known to be life-threatening). But I deal with those things, rather than making them into the center of attention. Better to focus on enjoying the food, and the hard work and artistry that the kitchen is putting into it.