Mano

IMO the worst insult of all for a foodie: white bread

Call California Wine Cabinets at 1-888-694-9463. I bought a scratch 'n dent 60 bottle (really about 50) model VT-60GSS cooler for $275 shipped to me in Philadelphia. The handle is a bit loose, but otherwise it is cosmetically and mechanically fine. The brand is Vinotemp and I am satisfied with the quality. After almost two years it works quite well. I keep my reds at 56-58.

Give Ricardo's on Huntingdon Pike a try.

Restaurants are complex operations with all sorts of overhead. In a vital and open market with competition and variety of choices I rarely find many places where my experience is tainted because I feel I am being gouged. In fact, I am happy that any place where I enjoy dining, makes a healthy profit--I want them to thrive. ← The key difference in your argument is that I think most wine people feel ripped off having to pay several times (not sure about the 300% markup either) the price for the same bottle they have in their cellars. I know I do. It becomes a question of what is a reasonable profit in the minds of the patrons. I really have no idea what a pair of Air Jordans cost (although I suspect it's a fraction of what they sell for) but I do know know what most wine on wine lists retail for. That's the difference. Further, if you don't like the price of Air Jordan's keep shopping. Ditto with usurious wine list prices, keep shopping or don't patronize. ← But the BYOs in Philadelphia give me an alternative to paying the re-sale markup as well, so I choose, by and large, not to. The other issue, of course, is that the elephant in the room is the fact that restaurateurs don't practice what I view as fair pricing: pricing under which all their products, and all their customers, face a similar markup. All hue and cry to the contrary, I often hear tell of liquor sales being a "revenue center" and providing the "profit margin" for a restaurant, because the markup on the food is not large enough. Well, to me, that amounts to a sin tax on drinkers. We are, in essence, being asked to subsidize the meals of all the non-drinkers. That bugs the daylights out of me. So when I find a business model that treats me as an equal, by placing all the burden on the food - which BYOs have to do, obviously - I hop aboard. ← One of the main points of the article is that because many Philadelphians are given so many BYOB alternatives, restaurants that serve wine are, in effect, being asked to "price match". I can't imagine a low corkage fee yielding the same profit as the wine and the restaurant is not moving product that cost it money. They're just grateful they didn't lose a customer who bought fod and paid corkage. This is a win situation for the customer but not a good long-term outlook for the restaurant. Putting aside the value judgements regarding fairness, gauging etc. for the moment, I'm still very interested in what folks here think the restaurants can do to make this a win-win situation? Friday, Saturday Sunday had a cost + $10 charge for wine. Is this policy still in place and how is it working for the restaurant? Inded, is this the future of restaurant wine sales in Philly? Taking into account that I'm as much an economist as I am a winemaker, I'll take a stab at it: Mano Hills Winery (one can dream can't he?) produces 1,000 cases of wine a year at a hard cost of $6 a bottle. A distributor doesn't have a demand for all the wine and buys 900 cases for $10/bottle. (A Mr. Newman from PA buys the other 100 cases at $4/bottle direct from the winery. ) From the original 900 cases, 500 are sold to restaurants at $20/bottle and are put on the wine lists at $70 (250% markup). It takes a year for the restaurants to sell the wine. Given the same basic cost scenario, but changing the price at the restaurant to $45 (cost + $25 fixed markup) the wine sells out in six months and the winery sells the other 100 cases at $10/bottle to the distributor. The distributor then has the winery increase production to 1,200 cases and so on. In this scenario, having sold the original wine in six months, the restaurant, which was making $25 less per bottle than at $70, replaces it with another wine with the same $25 profit. The restaurant moves more product but makes the same profit. The customer is happier, the winery sells more wine, the distributor makes more money and so both winery and distributor and their employees have more money to spend on Nike Air Jordans, and to pump into the economy in general. You get the picture. One down side, I imagine, is that by selling more wine restaurants incur more breakage of stemware and cork screw worms. Also, there's the increased workman's compensation insurance premiums resulting from the carpal tunnel and repetitive motion injuries of sommeliers and servers opening all those bottles of wine. I also imagine that an $8 retail bottle of wine isn't going to appeal to customers at that restaurant if it's $33. Accordingly, a graduated or tier structure may be appropriate, much like our beloved tax system. Wines for which the restaurant pays <$10 are on the list for cost + $5, $10 - 20 wine + $10 and so on. Please feel free to find the gaping holes in my logic.

Years ago I worked at several restaurants in California and all marked up wine about 300% More recently, a friend who worked for a wine distributor told me about the general wholesale/retail/restaurant mark-up. When I go to PA restaurants and am familiar with the retail cost of the wine, the mark-up varies but is generally 250-350%. Perhaps Katie or other restaurant folk can weigh in on whether there is a "standard" mark-up and if so, how was it established.

Jeff, I'm with you on most all points. My understanding is that in PA restaurants pay retail for wine but not sales tax. In NJ and other free market states they pay wholesale, which is about 60% of retail. Restaurants generally then mark up the wine about 300%. In PA the hands of the restaurants are tied in a variety of ways and their base cost of any alcoholic beverage tends to be much higher than elsewhere. In this thread I'm not railing against anything! Been there, done that. Restaurants have various formula to make sure they turn a profit taking into account all costs. I don't take issue with that at all. Every business needs to have a "mark up." Pasta dishes may be marked up 700% while prime dry-aged meats may have only a two-digit markup. However, customers generally don't think about food markups in that way. At least I don't. But at least here in Philadelphia, many of us scrutinize wine markups. Hence, today's article in the Inquirer. I'm just wondering how the general 300% markup for wine developed. The articles brought into sharper relief just how precarious the restaurant business is, particularly for those establishments that paid a premium for their liquor licenses. Those that allow BYOB but don't charge a corkage fee are, IMO cheating themselves out of revenue they deserve. Making $15 on corkage, plus the profit on food is better than having a table sit empty. I'm also wondering if there is a way for restaurants that serve wine to charge less for the wine, sell more of it, and make more than the corkage?

Today's Inquirer has a front page article about Phillie's BYOB "revolt" and another on page 22 by LaBan. Philadelphia is truly a BYOB heaven where, according to the article, some patrons will pass on a restaurant with a liquor license if they're not permitted to bring their own (and pay a corkage fee). Many restaurants with liquor licences are accomodating them rather than lose a customer. While I'm interested in the discussion these articles will surely generate on this forum, I'm also curious about how the 300% markup for wine came about. Also, for those of you in the restaurant and wine business, do you have any thoughts about the effect on profits if restaurants lowered the price of wine in order to sell more?

I guess they're selling because business was a big bust.

Soup That way I don't eat too much.

You may need to read the article or re-read it, as that is not what Ms. Green is saying. If it were, then I wouldn't have bothered to rant. Ms. Green was very clear about what she was saying, there was no reading between the lines in her commontary.

Vadouvan, she probably does "know her stuff" but she sure didn't show it in her article. The crux of her argument is not for there to be "more places like Amada with talented chefs and fair alchohol prices." Green obviously didn't do the necessary research, and her premise that BYOBs are somehow responsible for the slow evolution of the restaurant scene has no basis. It was a shoot-from-the-hip commontary written by someone who "knows her stuff." Green shot herself in the foot. A better angle would've been for her to appeal to those people with the means and inclination to open the restaurants she desires. I know the difference between the two. Some of the best meals I've eaten have been at BYOBs, but my best dining experiences have been mostly at high-end restaurants that serve wine. I patronize the former more often, as that's what I can afford. I go to the latter on those rare special occassions. As for the excellent more affordable places with liquor licenses, such as Amada, I still don't see how BYOBs relate to them in any negative fashion. We certainly would benefit from more of them. If she really knew and cared about the Philly restaurant scene, she'd promote excellent food and service, regardless of whether or not the place was a BYOB. I'm feelin' ornery tonight.

I just received my copy of the March 2006 Philadelphia Magazine, and just read Aliza Green’s “Say Goodbye to the BYOB” on page 187. This is one of the most wrongheaded articles I’ve ever read. Although I’ve never heard of Green, she has written cookbooks, was part of the Philadelphia restaurant renaissance in the 1970s and is a restaurant consultant. She also has a web site. In her commentary, Green initially notes the proliferation of “small imaginative low-budget storefront BYOB’s” but complains, “They represent the entirely wrong direction for our city’s culinary future.” Green mentions the “obstacles presented by the LCB” but doesn’t say what they are. Indeed, she never acknowledges that Philadelphia liquor licenses are limited in number and rising in cost, nor does she recommend that the PLCB increase number of licenses. I believe BYOBs are the perfect direction for Philadelphia’s culinary future, because they are lower risk opportunities for restaurateurs to develop their business and culinary skills. BYOBs are, in some ways no different than fledgling independent film makers of small low budget movies. Moreover, there are many excellent seasoned restauranteurs who prefer to run smaller BYOBs rather than deal with the hassle of a larger venue. Not all of us aspire to become Steven Starr. Green then goes on to dictate what she believes the “complete dining experience” should be. While it may be right for her, I don’t necessarily want mine to include a 300% markup on wine. Moreover, her faith in the coveted wine list is not shared by me. Most affordable restaurants don’t have a sommelier and many select their wines based on popularity, not on whether they’re a good match for the food. Green’s true colors emerge when she admits never going to those very restaurants that epitomize the very best of BYOBs. In fact, other than having worked at some BYOBs in the 1970s, she never indicates having been to one. Instead, she whines about the “hassles of buying wine, what kind to choose, how many bottles to bring, how to transport them and what temperature.” (She’s a restaurant consultant?) Why not call the restaurant and ask when you make the reservation. If not, here are the answers: 1. Choose the wine you like best or call the restaurant for a recommendation, or ask at the State Store 2. Bring as many bottles as you might order if they had a wine list. Then add another bottle just because you can. 3. The same paper bag as the wine came in, or go buy a wine bag/carrier; they’re available at all state stores 4. Same temperature as you bought it. The BYOB will have an ice bucket for whites, and if you’re not sure, ask the BYOB server and use an ice bucket to slightly chill a red (she’s REALLY a restaurant consultant?) Green then tries to legitimize herself by quoting Aimee Oxely, who stated that a great meal may be compromised by bringing a cheap bottle of wine. I think Oxely’s comment was meant to encourage people to think of bringing better wine to Django. It’s not an endorsement of closing down BYOBs. Green would be better off promoting better wine knowledge. Just because Green likes to start dinner off with a professionally made cocktail and peruse a wine list, doesn’t mean we all do. I typically prefer no cocktail and the opportunity to bring my own wine. If I want the same dining experience as she, I’ll go to a restaurant with a bar. Green really shows her ignorance by asserting that “service can be diminished by the lack of a liquor license; waiters depend on wine and cocktail sales for about half their tips, and the most-skilled follow the money.” If that logic were true, some of the best wait-staff should be at Fridays, or similar chain restaurants that serve lots of liquor. Moreover, I’d then be entitled to only poor service if I didn’t order wine or booze. Where does she get her information, or does she believe that just because something makes sense to her, it must be true. Green asserts that our BYOBs are known only to locals, requiring out-of-towners to search for state stores to buy their wine. Because this may be too daunting a task, these people are then somehow forced to go chain restaurants with liquor licenses. How is this a fault or shortcoming of the BYOBs? Why isn’t Green lobbying Harrisburg to make wine and liquor licenses more plentiful and affordable for the erstwhile BYOB owners? She then concludes by asking, “Where are all the dynamic chef-owners and restaurateurs of tomorrow, who will bring this town the culinary accolades it deserves? Unfortunately they’re playing it safe by opening BYOBs” Green should be ashamed of herself, for if she is truly a restaurant professional, she knows full well that anyone who opens a restaurant is taking a huge risk. Opening and running a restaurant is not “playing it safe.” Whew! That’s my rant.

This is a different place and owner than Joe's from the 80s. Joe from the 80s is Joe Poon who is doing the semi-restaurant & catering thing above the vegetarian place on Cherry. Chinatown Cafe is run by Cary, who had Joe's before it closed. ← After passing by this place dozens of times, I went for take-out last night based on this thread. Glad I did.

As it happens, the week prior to LaBan's review I was chatting with one of his associates about the legal system, judges and then was given a heads-up that LaBan would be reducing Django by two stars. The connecting thread to these seemingly disparate topics is that LaBan is a judge, and that judges, no matter how qualified or objective, sometimes make subjective decisions that are at variance with the facts. LaBan's original four bell review and his two bell revision are cases in point. LaBan is a fine restaurant critic who does his homework, but these reviews were colored by his emotions and some subjective beliefs about the former owners. In my (limited) experience, Django was Philly's best BYOB, bar none, and I enjoyed some personal recognition from the owners. Nevertheless, the sound level and other factors would never qualify it as a four bell restaurant. To me, a four bell restaurant should be inviting and pleasant in every way. The fact that it was such a loud room made it unpleasant at times. Moreover, during the year before it changed hands, it was less consistent. Several people whose opinions I respect have had excellent meals at Django in recent months. Two bells is still "very good" and a two bell BYOB is smack in my sweet spot.

FFB, The incident took place some 17 years ago in Long Beach, CA. The restaurant name was the address, something like 222. I do recall having sweetbreads for the first time and loving them. As a prep cook and waiter, during my grad school days, I was always told doctors were demanding diners and lousy tippers. That was never my experience, but I wonder if the title influences where they're seated. BTW, thank you for your lone response to this thread. Without it, I would've felt very bad and lonely.

A few days after recieving my Ph.D. my wife and I went out to an upscale restaurant to celebrate. We had an early reservation and the place had only a few patrons. The maitre d' greeted us with "Welcome Mr. Smith, I'll show you to your table." I cooly informed him, "It's Dr. Smith." He graciously corrected himself and then sat us at the worst table in the establishment. After we were seated I appologized to my wife and told her the moment it came out of my mouth I knew I was being a horses patoot. The rest of the dinner was excellent and laughed that that evening my graduate education was completed, as I'd learned my lesson.

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I wrote a letter to the owners explaining that I too was a small business person but wanted them to know of our horrific experience. To this day have not heard from them. ← That may be because the place burned down about five years ago. There's a difference between poor service and rude service. While there may be reasons for the former, there is no excuse for the latter. As far as what a patron should expect from their server, it should never be entertainment, unless that's something they do. People should know what it means to be a good patron. I, too, have left small, or no tip, on very few occassions in over 30 years. When there is a problem I don't address it until the meal is over, as I don't want the server to do something to the food if they're angry. The few times I've had a rude server, I've asked them if anyone at the table had offended him/her and then respectfully and factually shared the problem with the waiter and manager together. Once, we were offered a round of after-dinner drinks, which we politely declined, but once we were told by the manager they'd take care of us the next time. Telling a restaurant patron they'll be compensated for a bad experience the next time they come in baffles me. First off, there is unlikely to be a next time. Secondly, even if there were, I'm not going to find the manager, remind him/her of a problem which might've taken place weeks before, and then hope I get something out of it. Restaurant managers should take care of the problem at the moment it's reported. One exception was when I wrote a polite letter of complaint to a restaurant, and in response I received a gift certificate for another dinner. The problem occured at a restaurant wine tasting dinner, and they misjudged the number of people who were to attend. Our table was last served, and our food arrived well after others were done, and it was clear it had been cooked in a convection oven. The portions were smaller and some substitutions were made. While that was the only complaint letter I've ever written, I have written several letters of praise and thanks. For some reason, when I go back, they seem to know my name and are very pleasant, indeed. Also, if I really enjoy a meal, I'll share some wine with the server and send a glass back to the chef. If they're not too busy, I'll ask if it's okay to bring it back myself and thank the chef. That gives me a chance to check out the kitchen, which for some reason I like to do.

All excellent food and beer suggestions! Now on to the wine... ... $10 above cost, please.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I made the Tarte Tatan and it turned out relatively well with the exception of some lemon undertones as a result of Julia Child's suggestion of placing the apple slices in lemon juice, grind and sugar in order to extract the apple juice before making the tart. In any event, I served it with a Yalumba and a Two Hands muscat, which are polar opposites. The former is tawny-portlike at 18% alcohol, while the latter was almost effervescent and was 6.5% alcohol. Other wines including sauternes and a Bollinger rouge Champagne were served with desserts. I didn't poll folks for their opinions but for the muscats, I preferred the Yalumba. The Two Hands was very good and will be served during an outdoor gathering this summer. The sauternes was excellent but the Champagne was cloying and not a good match for the sweeter dessert it was paired with. On its own or with the right match it would've been very good.

Sorry for not posting prompt feedback about Ristorante Castello, but I'd like to thank davidbdesilva for his recommendation. Compared to most BYOBs, the atmosphere is quite pleasant and quiet, with tables set far enough apart that you don't overhear other's conversations. The front end is staffed by the Italian contingient, reminding me of some SouthPhilly and Chambersburg restaurants I've enjoyed. The kitchen, however, is run by a Vietnamese fellow, (Paul, I believe) who chatted with our table for some time. He has excellent credentials, having cooked at some noteable restaurants in NYC and Philadelphia. The food was uniformly very good to excellent. While I cannot recall all specifics, I do remember the osso buco, the fish and a chicken dish as standouts. Castello is on par with JustEat by BrownGold in Buckingham, which, in my experience, is a consistently excellent BYOB. Castello is more upscale and JE is not Italian themed, but they're both great finds in the 'burbs. Thanks again!

You may not like kids, but you're a thoughtful friend! The idea of a vintage port produced or bottled the year of their daughter's birth is great. I'm new to port, but my input is don't sweat too much about which house the port is produced by unless they have a favorite. The ones you mentioned and the recommendations of WE will result in a terrific and memorable port. Just make sure you're invited when they drink it.

Daniel, Thank you for your input, as well. I noticed that you don't appear to favor muscat. Yesterday, I purchased the Yalumba and am considering matching it with Tarte Tatin or a similar fruit tarte. Unfortunately, the most important guest (my wife) cannot have dairy so tiramisu is out. As a dessert wine neophyte I performed a Google search and the Yalumba Museum NV was matched with a fruit tart several different places. If this is a poor match, I'd appreciate your opinion. Otherwise, I'll try your pairings at future dinners.

Thanks for your replies, they were very helpful. Someone else is making a chocolate torte, so it looks like I'll be making something to match with muscat. Probably a YALUMBA MUSEUM NV.