MarketStEl

Since someone unknowingly triggered a nostalgia rush in a couple of expat Kansas Citians with his post on the Savoy Grill, I thought I'd ask about another local restaurant that became the template for a national trend: Houlihan's Old Place. This was the name given to the first Houlihan's, at 4747 Pennsylvania on the Country Club Plaza. And for a good reason: it was "Houlihan's old place" -- the former location of the Tom Houlihan men's wear shop. The haberdasher had moved to a storefront on Nichols Road across from Halls to gain more space and better visibility. The Gilbert/Robinson restaurant organization, owner of the Plaza III next door, smelled an opportunity. The company took out a lease on the space, moved in an old carved-wood bar from some pub somewhere in Ireland (I believe), installed dark wood and backlit stained glass all over the space, put down a wood floor and hung a sign behind the bar counting down the days to St. Patrick's Day. Houlihan's Old Place was a hit from the day it opened, and it led the company to spread the concept to other cities--minus the "Old Place" moniker, especially after W.R. Grace & Co. purchased Gilbert/Robinson. But the concept did mutate over the years. Not too long after arriving in Philadelphia, I had dinner at the Houlihan's on Rittenhouse Square, and the pub was a much less prominent feature of the establishment. The color of the wood had gotten much lighter, and the lighting in general brighter. In addition, the walls were plastered with old metal ad and highway signs, including a Kansas state highway marker and a vintage-1960 Kansas City street sign (the ones with the hump in the middle, a white background and black lettering). The food was decent enough--burgers, grilled chicken, fried or broiled fish and shrimp, all relatively modestly priced. I haven't eaten at a Houlihan's in nearly two decades, though. The company converted the Rittenhouse Square location to a Devon Seafood Grill, a more upscale establishment. In the meantime, TGI Friday's, Ruby Tuesday's and the like have pretty much taken over in this area. But I am curious: Is the original Houlihan's still in business? If it isn't, what's there now? And is today's Houlihan's changed much from the place I ate in on Rittenhouse Square? Is the food better, worse, or just different? Or is it the same? And while I'm at it, what about Plaza III? Or, for that matter, the original Tom Houlihan's men's shop?

The "dollar store" is the modern-day version of Woolworth's original "five-and-dime." Recall that those stores got their name because all the items they carried were priced at 5¢ and 10¢. Adjusted for inflation, today's dollar stores are probably cheaper than the five-and-dime was for the shopper of the 1890s. Dollar Tree is one of the major national dollar store operators. Another, Dollar General, is actually misnamed, for it sells merchandise for prices above $1. There is a Dollar Tree in the 1500 block of Chestnut, not far from me, and a couple of independent dollar stores closer to me in the 1200 block. I haven't purchased any food items from them except for snacks (however, buying a 6-ounce bag of potato chips for $1 from Dollar Tree is no different from buying a 99¢ bag of Utz chips from the convenience store around the corner from me; yes, they are the same weight); but I have bought storage containers, plastic pitchers (made in India) and wooden spoons from these stores, and I've gotten my money's worth out of those. Hey, NulloModo: You want a less-expensive option for kitchen trash bags? I've found that the America's Choice tall kitchen bags (A&P-family stores; that's Super Fresh to us) perform very well. If you are using something larger than a 13-gallon bag, I can't speak to that, though.

I guess you've never shopped at an Aldi or Save-a-Lot no-frills supermarket, then. Most of the branded products these stores carry are private labels you've never heard of.

I think I read an article somewhere that stated that more potato chips are produced in Pennsylvania than in any other state of the Union. Several posters have already mentioned the two big names in Hanover, Utz and Snyder's. Wise, I believe, is also made here, though the company is owned by an out-of-state firm. Someone else posted a pic of a bag of Gibble's Red Hot Chips--another Pennsylvania brand. I've had those; they're plenty fiery. I've also eaten LG--they're merely okay--and Groff's, which if I'm not mistaken also come from Lancaster County (where Hanover is located) but aren't as widely available as Utz or Snyder's. Bachmann is also located in this part of the state (southeastern/south-central Pennsylvania). For the life of me, though, I can't figure out why Herr's outsells Utz in Philadelphia. Herr's chips are too salty, IMO. Or maybe I was brainwashed by the text on the back of the Utz bag explaining how Bill and Salie Utz thought that "a little salt would enhance the flavor of the chip, but too much would destroy it." Utz regular chips have about half as much sodium as most other brands' regular variety. Nationally, Utz outsells Herr's: again, I recall reading that Utz was the fourth-best-selling chip brand nationally. And that's based on strong sales in the Northeast mainly, for--as their ad campaign of a few years back reminded everyone--there's "no Utz in Dallas" (or North Dakota, or even Florida). You can probably guess by now that Utz chips are among my favorites--especially their Carolina Bar-B-Q, Salt & Pepper and Grandma Utz's Handcooked, but their plain-Jane chips are about the best of their kind. I also like some of the Kettle Chips varieties: salt and fresh ground black pepper, New York Cheddar with herbs and jalapeno, to name three. One unusual new flavor that I find tasty is Herr's Steak & Worcestershire. That's about the only Herr's chip that makes my favorites list, though. Anyone else here tried the blue cheese Bistro Chips? What did you think of them? I thought they had the texture and character of the potato "crisps" made from dried potatoes (Pringles and their kin), but the label says they're all natural.

So it's important that you taste the vodka?

So Holly Moore posts to this topic and completely forgets to mention cheesesteaks? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Philadelphia's signature sandwich--thinly sliced sirloin cooked on a grill, then either covered with slices of cheese (American or Provolone; not, as John Kerry tried to have it, with Swiss) and served in a torpedo roll, or scooped into a torpedo roll slathered with Cheez Whiz, usually accompanied by fried onions ("with")--has been fingered as a major reason why the City of Brotherly Love ranks at or near the top of those annual "America's Fattest Cities" rankings.

Yeah, sitting in a cardboard delivery box doesn't help any pizza's crust. That's probably why I've almost completely given up on delivery pizza since I've moved to Philly: better to travel to the good stuff. But reheating works wonders as well. ← I'll have to remember that. Oven, not microwave, right? I ordered a large "Brooklyn Style" pizza last night from NYPD Pizza, about which I've posted elsewhere on this forum. (A Brooklyn Style pizza is their loaded version, with sausage, pepperoni--added after the pizza emerges from the oven, a smart move if you're taking it out as I was--green peppers, onions and mushrooms, with anchovies optional; I exercised the option on half the pie.) The pie was enormous--18 inches in diameter, bigger than the box they put it in--and it cooked in the box all the way home, steam rising constantly from the corners. When I pulled out a slice, that really crunchy crust that I fell in love with on my first visit had gone flabby--though not soggy, thank God. While I was waiting for my pie, BTW, I had a nice chat with the owner's daughter. The owner is from New York, and had toyed with the idea of opening a New York-style pizzeria in Chicago before deciding to move here because it's closer. (NYPD's menu includes a Chicago-style deep dish pie, which takes twice as long to prepare.) No, he wasn't a New York City cop, but he does have a collection of model police cars on display along one wall--one from New York, one from Detroit, one from Italy, a fourth from I forget where, and two from Philadelphia. Those last two were donated by two Philly cops who came into the place--no doubt intrigued by the name--and complained when they noted no Philly cop cars in the collection. Next time, I'm ordering a less-loaded pie, to see if its crust survives the trip better.

Okay, remind me to order a dozen cups of double espresso when I stop by. That way, not only will you have gotten the dollar amount you probably would have earned on the bottle of wine I didn't order, you will have to put me in a straitjacket to carry me out of the place, I'll be buzzed that much. On the side topic: If you spent decades trying to promote (what you saw as) your family's good name and history, only to have some corporate behemoth strip it all away from you, wouldn't you be a bit psycho too? (A moment of sympathy as well, please, for that brewery in Ceske Budovice, Czech Republic.) I'm surprised the ordeal didn't "get his goat"!

Okay, now that I'm caught up with this thread: Whole Foods 365 Brand: Tried it once. Too runny, and too lemony for my taste. Growing up: I was raised on Miracle Whip. (I recall seeing a map once--one of those "At Last Count" maps that run in The Atlantic Monthly--that tracked the mayo/Miracle Whip dividing line. That line closely paralleled the Mason-Dixon one, with Miracle Whip country lying to its south.) And even now, I occasionally get a craving for the stuff. I think it goes better with fresh tomatoes and makes a tangier potato salad. But I can get an equally tangy potato salad using mayonnaise, pickle relish and the right amount of vinegar. That leaves fresh tomatoes, which are not reason enough for me to keep Miracle Whip on hand. My own mayo preference: The first mayonnaise I ever ate was Hellman's. No, I've never made my own. When I lived in Boston, I used Cain's; when I moved here, I was perfectly happy using the America's Choice store brand. No longer--I've gone back to my roots and use only Hellman's. (I always stock up when it's on sale and use coupons.) What I use it on: Never, never on hamburgers, and that's even after eating Whoppers, which were the first burgers I ever had with mayo on them. Fries? Sure. Tomatoes? Definitely. Also in salad dressings--I make a rather interesting dressing with mayo, ketchup, Dijon mustard and maybe a little onion powder. BLTs--it's either mayo or blue cheese dressing. If my partner didn't have a thing about heavy sauces on chicken, I'd use it more with chicken dishes.

Oh, that reminds me: On your recommendation, I stopped by AJ's Texas Wieners a few weeks back and had their chili dog. The dog was fine, the chili seemed a bit thin. Now I'm jonesin' for a chili dog, and I've got to turn in.

Wait a minute. Frozen veggies count in this topic? I use those all the time. I tend to buy groceries in a big weekly or biweekly trip, so buying fresh makes little sense for me--unless I remember to blanch and freeze 'em myself, fresh veggies will usually go stale before I get around to cooking them. IQF veggies taste as good as fresh, IMO, and are real convenient. That includes the brands-you've-never-heard-of at stores like Aldi and Save-a-Lot. I believe I posted about my experiences with frozen veggies from SaL on the store brand topic.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa... Whenever I've seen them offered around these parts, the usual accompaniments are mustard, ketchup, pickle relish, chopped onion and maybe sauerkraut. I'd say that the only wrong way to serve a hot dog is bunless (unless the bunless dogs are sliced and mixed with beans). But this gives me an occasion to ask a question that's been burning in my mind for some time: Is there a definitively wrong hot dog to serve? Or, cast positively, what's the right hot dog to offer? I know that lots of Americans wish they were Oscar Mayer wieners, and that brand's not that bad, even though it tastes heavily of artificial smoke flavoring or beef broth. But you're from Chicago, Fresser, where I understand real hot dog aficionados wouldn't be caught dead serving anything other than Vienna Beef. Here in Philadelphia, the dog of choice is Dietz & Watson. I know some swear by Nathan's or Hebrew National. The absolute best hot dog I've had so far came as a freebie with an order of Omaha Steaks. Theirs are really beefy with no artificial flavorings. So can we discuss what hot dog to top as well as how to top it?

Who let W in here? ← Who said anything about W.? I've always associated that pronunciation with Georgia's own President, Jimmy Carter.

for gyro think hero...thats how iv e heard it pronounced in many a greek restaurant Yes, but with the "he-" a bit aspirated, if that's the right term, and the "r" not as "errr" as in English. ← I've seen posters in a number of Greek diners that say: "Ask for YEE'-ROS" I believe the proper Greek word for the ground lamb/beef dish is spelled (in the Roman alphabet) "gyros" and pronounced as in the poster text above. I've seen it spelled without the "s" often enough, though, and assume that in that variation, it would be pronounced YEE-ro.

When in Rehoboth, I prefer Nicola's to Grotto, but Grotto is everywhere on the Delaware coast.

Sure enough, there was a table at the Super Fresh today, and I plunked down a grand total of $21 on six boxes: two Thin Mints, one each of Trefoils, Tagalongs, Samoas and Double Dutch. My partner promptly told a guest who dropped by as I was unloading the groceries that he could take one of the Thin Mints boxes with him. The Double Dutch cookies are okay. I've consumed enough regular Chips Ahoys to know better, but I expected a chocolate chocolate-chip cookie to be softer, chewier and more fudge-like than these were.

Thanks for the Wisconsin Cheese Mart link. I remember seeing packages of Kraft brick cheese, sliced for sandwiches, in supermarkets growing up, but it's impossible to find on the East Coast. Which, I guess, confirms your suspicion. That aged brick cheese that goes for $34 a pound must really be something! ISTR reading that Brick and Colby cheeses are the only two varieties of cheese that originated in the United States. (Colby--a hard cheese that is a little softer and a little sweeter than mild Cheddar--is named for the Wisconsin county where it was first made.)

Lenexa is what? Three hours away via I-35? I know there's a Dean & DeLuca retail store there (the chain's owner is a Johnson County native, or so I've heard), and something tells me there's enough surplus cash floating around the vicinity that you should be able to find some other swell specialty grocers and/or cheesemongers in Kansas City's answer to the Main Line. (Another vague childhood memory: walking into a store--long gone now, I'm sure--on the Country Club Plaza with my father and being overwhelmed with the smells of the various cheeses.) Of course, you then have to properly protect the cheese for the three-hour drive back.

Actually Southwark is the name of a neighborhood in South Philadelphia. I am not sure of it's boundaries but I know I lived in it for many years at 7th and Manton. ← I believe that Southwark District in pre-1854-consolidation Philadelphia County lay just south of the City of Philadelphia, extending from the Delaware to somewhere around 8th or 9th streets and from South Street to Tasker Street. Southwark Post Office (zip code 19147, which includes a portion of Center City below Pine and east of Broad) is at 10th and Dickinson streets. Like many other American place names, it also comes to us from England: Southwark is also a borough of London, on the south bank of the Thames. James' reference to a "bulwark" is not off the mark: the "wark" refers to defensive "works" erected in the area. (I knew there was a reason for Wikipedia.)

Maybe we should merge this discussion with the one on global food conglomerates after reading Rick Nichols' "On the Side" column in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer Food section: "Girl Scout Cookies: A life lesson on fat profits" Lyndon LaRouche would probably find this article fascinating too, as the Canadian food mogul mentioned in the story is a good buddy of the British royal family. Residents of areas whose Girl Scout councils buy their cookies from Little Brownie Bakers may continue to buy their cookies guilt-free, I guess. Nonetheless, the article's still worth reading, for Nichols makes some useful points about the lessons the Scouts learn from conducting the cookie sale the way they have since the 1930s.

Are they online? The Wisconsin cheeses we get in the Northeast are generally undistinguished; the really good Cheddars around this way are all from either Vermont or New York State, save for one: Pennsylvania Noble Cheddar from Green Valley Dairy, an absolutely spectacular, cave-aged, organic raw milk cheese from Lancaster County. I have this vague childhood memory of eating some really good Wisconsin cheese. I'd love to rekindle it.

DiBruno's is da bomb! And I can actually go down to the store and sample their wares, unlike most of you, who will have to settle for vicariously experiencing the store online. They usually have chunks of Tre Latte out for sampling. Haven't bought any yet. The last time I went, I bought a smoked Caciocavallo, which is a great snacking cheese--similar in flavor to Provolone but a bit sharper.

You live where? I didn't know LeBus had a national account. --Sandy, who remembers when LeBus was still housed in a bus, in the 3400 block of Sansom Street on Penn's campus. They had a satellite bus in back of the Chemistry Building that dispensed a yummy pizza ("famous, gooey LeBus pizza") with an unusually sweet and airy crust. In the late 1980s, LeBus opened a cafeteria-style restaurant in the rowhouse next to where they had parked their bus; after a decade serving inexpensive, fresh food to hungry Penn students and visitors, owner David Braverman decided to throw all his energies into commercial baking. LeBus is now one of Philadelphia's best artisan bread bakers.

It looks to me like the cookie variety you get from your friendly neighborhood Girl Scout depends on which of the two licensed U.S. Girl Scout Cookie bakers your local council uses. The URL given upthread is for ABC/Interbake Foods' Girl Scout Cookie site. In Philadelphia--where the first Girl Scout cookie sale took place in the 1930s--the Scouts peddle cookies from Little Brownie Bakers, which offers a wider selection. (Edited to add: You can also see the changing lineup of their cookie offerings from 1975 forward on their site.) And they still call their coconut-caramel-and-chocolate-fudge-stripe cookies Samoas. Those are one of my favorites, but as for the top of the heap--well, as I'm wont to say, "You can never be too rich or have too many Thin Mints." Those "Double Dutch" cookies sure look tempting, though. Guess I'll have to wander over to SEPTA headquarters and see if the cookie table's up in the lobby yet. Or maybe they will have one at the Super Cruise soon.

Your last name isn't Addams, is it?