Carrot Top

Really, Rogov. What the heck indeed. Some nice line drawings there, but it might have been better to try to speak Zulu to me. Mathematics is not my forte. . .and this is a good thing, for it allows me to consistently misunderstand my bank account, which then allows me to try to emulate Oscar Wilde in always being satisfied with the best. So. . ."good taste" can only be defined mathematically? Pah. C'mon, try a translation. Words, please.

He did have a way with words, didn't he. What wonderful nonsense. Especially the first one.

Yes, I'd forgotten that! I do love that line you wrote, though. Quite poetic. Almost Shakespearean, really.

I wonder. . .it would be interesting to try to come up with a list of things that would define "good taste" across a variety of cultures and time. Not a list of characteristics that would define "good taste" in a specific sense for specific things, for as you say that is certainly often temporal and geographic, but a list of characteristics that might be global or beyond time constraints. A list of classic things that would define "good taste" beyond all boundaries. I do think there are similarities in how all (or most) people(s) or cultures have defined this as much as there are similarities in all (or most) other classic rules of life. I think we are basically more alike than we are different, and it does seems that there are classic things that should hold true in a "global" sense (using the word not only in its geographic meaning). A classic definition of good taste. The examples of "trickle-down" that you gave with the 60-year lag were good examples of migration down a class slope. I wonder. . .did industry in the form of any sort of possible mechanization of any of the parts of the making of the dish occur in these examples? It is a bit of a stretch to think of "mechanization" during the Renaissance, but it could be that a new sort of tortellini press was developed that was affordable and available to the everyday person in the case of the Pasticcio de Tortellini. . .and maybe with the spiced cakes there was some sort of availability of spices made to the public through better trade routes through political negotiation or better built ships that lowered the prices? It is interesting to think of these things, isn't it. The Trifle I can't figure out at all. . because all of those ingredients were probably available to the "common folk" weren't they. Hmm. Maybe the invention of a better eggbeater/ mechanical whisk that would beat the cream faster than the older version? Or maybe something to do with refrigeration that would allow it to "hold" better than lugging in iceblocks to the icehouse? Ah, well. Who knows. Maybe it is all more arbitrary than that. The duck confit, though. I think of that as a peasant dish that was originally created to preserve the duck meat through the winter rather than trying to keep the ducks alive (heh heh, they would have been "fresh-frozen" then, no?). So I can't put it in the trickle-down theory but rather in the cultural-exchange group, with a hint of something else added. . .I don't exactly know how to phrase it. . .reverse-snottery perhaps? Fun stuff, Adam.

". . .an egg which has succeeded in being fresh has done all that can reasonably be expected of it." (Henry James)

"How long does getting thin take? Pooh asked anxiously."

Since reading this earlier, I keep trying to find some neat thing to say that would amuse, but no cute lines are coming from me. The original thought remains stuck firmly in my mind and will not be pried out by any other words. Lovely. Just lovely, Maggie. In the hugest and best sense of the word.

Ah. You've opened the door to think of literary muses. . .then I would have to add MFK Fisher. And in a different category, Larousse Gastronomique. (What it lacks in warm personality it makes up for in bulk ).

eewwww! ← no fair ridiculing people in this thread ← Actually, I've seen that stuff for sale both in health food stores and in the Amish store I used to go to. . .so he is in very good company!

This is a very funny story, Arey. I really do hope you will write back in when (if?) the B* M* C* place opens to let us know who the greeter at the door is there! With a building that has a history like that, I can not but imagine that it will be yet another in this continuing line of characters that is standing near the door to make one "welcome". ( )

Great line, Rogov. That strips it down to what matters, doesn't it. It reminded me of something I'd read, so I looked it up: "We plan, we toil, we suffer - in the hope of what? A camel-load of idol's eyes? The title deeds of Radio City? The Empire of Asia? A trip to the moon? No, no, no, no. Simply to wake up just in time to smell coffee and bacon and eggs. And, again I cry, how rarely it happens! But when it does happen - then what a moment, what a morning, what a delight!" J.B. Priestly Yes. . .how rarely it happens. . . and what a delight when it does!

In regards to the Apple Caviar and its ilk. . .and the fact that these sorts of things end up first and sometimes only on the tables of the wealthy. . .whether the wealthy be from Ancient Rome or from current-day Manhattan. . . to my mind that is because of the ability that wealth allows for one to play with the food. Most people in other categories of financial status are more interested in just getting the food on the table somehow. To my mind, it seems that we now have an enormous group of people being more interested in creative ways with food not only because of the fact that travel and therefore exchange of ideas in food has become more common but also that we have a much larger upper-middle class than ever before in history (that I am aware of, though please correct me if I am wrong. It would be interesting to know of this and of the things that happened in a similar food/economic/political culture). Having money frees up people to be able to play. Now as to Jack's point, that the very wealthy are often not so imaginative with their food choices, I would agree. . .but with a stipulation. The very wealthy who are accustomed to being very wealthy are not often so imaginative. But "new money" people more often are. Again, same thing. When one has the chance, the opportunity, to play, to buy creativity, to be something "different" than before due to lack of funds, it often takes the shape of trying on food styles. Old money has often had the chance to taste it all and has settled into its (or their) own style. Nonetheless, this style still is often more "haute" than "peasant". From what I've seen, anyway. Your "trickle-down" theory is interesting. . .I hadn't thought of that. Can you give us some examples? I can't think of anything in particular of this sort in today's world. . .unless it is something like Knorr's Bearnaise Sauce . Now. . .has there ever been a diner with an individual palate or intellect? Honey, I gotta tell you. Be a chef for one day, and you will find out just how amazingly individual people are about their food. Or instead, just line up ten people in a row and ask them what they think about a particular dish you've served them. . .and insist that they be honest (as honest as they would be if they had to pay for it! ) Oooooh boy. You will definitely see individuality.

Maybe Alice was into Feng Shui? It's good to stir the spirits in the right direction, you know. Don't want to upset things.

How about you, Melissa? Is there any one person that comes to your mind?

An interesting question. . .and my answer came out differently than I would have thought if I had just "briefly" thought. The first thought that came to mind was some of the chefs that I worked for when first entering the field. But that was not "really" the answer. There was not enough depth to that answer. It seemed feeble, flat somehow. The person who finally came to mind was my first mother-in-law. There is a story about her called "Not Your Average Joe" posted in the Literary Smackdown Entries (Round 25). I don't really think of her often, not often enough (for really she deserves the thoughts and certainly my gratitude). How has she influenced the way I cook today? Well. . .the foods that she knew and cooked are still my favorite sorts of things. And after learning and knowing how to do many more highly technical and elegant sorts of cookery. . .finally in the end of it all I find my preference is for the simple, the unpretensious, the "home cooking". The circle completed itself and the path came right back to where it started. Was it the food, or was it her, or was it the sense of family that was part of that time and experience? I don't know. Thanks for thinking of this question, Melissa.

Whoa. And I thought it was bad the time my little Pomeranian dog got drunk at a party by drinking anyone's beer from the glasses that they had put down for a moment. I did have to walk him around quite a bit, later, to sober him up. (Though it was rather amusing to see him topple merrily sideways against the tree as he lifted his leg to pee, I admit. . .) Poor bear. Let's hope that at least he was a happy drunk, since it seems to have done him in.

Speaking of hot dogs, I just remembered a babysitter that I had in elementary school years who made the same thing for my early "supper" every single day of the week. Hot dogs, sliced crosswise into little coin-shapes and placed between white bread slices then slathered with ketchup. Strangely enough, my mother was unimpressed. Thought it terrible. I thought them rather good, though, and don't remember ever tiring of them.

And here all this time I thought Minnesota was just a myth. Looking forward to seeing "your world", Smithy. Lovely start with that red wine and rose ice cream. Perfect.

akwa, thank you for the time you took to do the blog. It was generous of you, as it is generous of every blogger that offers this to the eGullet audience. I enjoyed it a great deal, as you must realize. And of course, you must have realized when you started this thing that your style of blog would create some questions or comments with its readers. Lots of luck with your projects. There are some good ones there, in my opinion. Both those that can be tasted in reality on the tongue and the ones that can be chewed over in the mind. Karen

Actually I've done both fruit kebobs with a yogurt dip on the side and meat/fish/veggie or whatever kebobs such as ham, pepperoni, cheese, and peppers. . . or shrimp, cucumber, and cherry tomato. . .with veggie dips or hummus on the side. They love it. And to avoid any potential injuries, you can do it using plastic straws for the skewer. Mini muffins are great. They always get eaten. Remember that unless your school has a policy of "no-trade" at lunchtime, that it might happen that if you stay completely away from providing sweets that your child will get them through trading anyways. Personally it seems to me that one of the great things about childhood is being able to eat an Oreo cookie without guilt. Same, for cheetos. So I put those lovely junk foods in the lunchboxes too, in moderation. P.S. Have you tried calling broccoli "little trees" and ooh'ing and aah'ing over them? That works sometimes. . .

After trying to sort out this question, I am still rather only half-way there if even that in terms of being sure what it is I think. . . but if I understand you right, then I think yes. There are several points which come to mind. First is the attenuation of "lots of ingredients" into one finessed single thing. . .a sauce, a forcemeat, a reduction of "whatever" for whatever purpose. That costs money in terms of having lots of stuff to start off with. . .and it takes time in terms of skilled labor, which also is an expense. This removes these foods from the availability of the "everyday person" in most parts of the world. And it is an approach to food being "figurative" as you said, rather than direct. Then there is the fact that there has to be some intelligence of a creative sort used to make food more "figurative" than just tasting "of itself". This creativity is not found everywhere, and of course creativity (partnered with the ability to turn it into something real) has always been in demand among those who have had the free time and education of whatever sort to appreciate how buying creativity can set them, themselves, apart from the madding crowd. On the flip side of this, many people who are very wealthy are actually very creative themselves, and have a habit of appreciating it in other people in other fields. . not all the wealthy have inherited their money. Lots have made it in various creative ways themselves, even if that creative way has to do with playing with numbers or trends rather than playing with food, or paint. As to what form that creativity takes in the way of food . .i.e. whether it is something novel or whether it is something more traditional (i.e. "nouvelle" cuisine as opposed to "haute cuisine" to use two examples that are rather standard in terms of our common understandings) that, ultimately, is up to the person that is doing the consuming of the creativity. But it is an essence of "having something different than the norm" done to the food that is important. The food is removed to a higher plane. There are no memories of dirt floors or fishing nets anywhere to be found in the idea of the food as it sits on the table. One is removed from the idea of having ever had to use one's hands to do a job. One is taken to the place where minds are used instead to do a job. Easier in ways. More comfortable. It has a lot to do with defining one's class, I think. And I don't use the term "class" perjoratively, but rather just as a figure of speech. I don't like the term "socio-economic group", it makes me feel queasy. What do you think? I am sure that you have some ideas I've never thought of. Oh. Mostly what I like to eat is things that taste as much of themselves as possible. My taste is for the very simple, the pure, that which does start and end right at the earth, the soil, the attention given to the original ingredient. I guess I'll always be a plebe.

White middle-class American ghetto: (Yeah, I think there is such a thing ): Tuna-Noodle Casserole made with Campbells Cream of Mushroom Soup Devilled Ham (from a can) Sandwiches on Wonder Bread Grilled Bologna Sandwiches on Wonder Bread (grill with margarine, not butter ) Salmon Cakes made with canned salmon. Pour gloppy white sauce over top and serve with canned peas, if you wish. My mother made something called "Hamburg Casserole" which was about 1/4 lb. of ground beef, a bunch of Minute Rice, and a can of stewed tomatoes. . .combined and baked. Not bad, actually. Has anyone mentioned canned cheap sardines in any way?

In this area the place to go is Oasis Market. Right here in Blacksburg. Whatever they do not have, they will order.

Could be so, Adam. Never thought about it before. Will do so now. Thank you for giving me something to (figuratively) chew on. It is quite yummy.