Carrot Top

Emblematic? I've already confused things by saying "defining" or "iconic" but to be fair, I did try to describe what those things were supposed to be. Que ce que c'est, this "emblematic"? Describe, please.

Well, I didn't post "California Pizza". Just said it was a thought, and really it is the name of the thing that is the reason why I'm still considering the idea of either "pizza" added to my list as "icon" or "California (or whatever) Pizza" added to my own list as future idea of (maybe) describer". We've taken pizza from the Italians (as they took the concept of baked dough with toppings from somewhere else likely at some point in time)(or maybe the Italians brought it here through immigration) and have kept the name and the same ingredients of one sort of pizza that exists in Italy, but then again the ingredients are *not* the same, they are more highly processed and the whole thing tastes like its the same family, but not the same thing. It's a problem of "words" or names, for me. I agree with you on the last paragraph. Interesting, too, how our iconic foods seem to take this shape.

To my mind, it probably would come in as #1 (in some ways) as "definer". But then again, I have two teenage children. Sometimes, I'd like to come between *them* and their pizza. I just can't see it clearly named as "icon", unless it is specified as "American Pizza" or (something I was going to add to my proposed 2000-2050 list) "California Pizza" which stretches the boundaries that much further.

Here is a chance to discuss that very topic. Personally, I have nothing against essentializing. Whether it's my wardrobe or whether it's thoughts of food. I'm all for it.

In another thread, Pontormo raises this discussion: Here is the chance to discuss regionalism, class, location, and histories of immigration. . .powerful media and corporations, chain restaurants, Stouffers and take-out joints. So tell me about it. What's the scoop? What are we all about, in our many food guises? What is different, unique, special that you can tell us about the food of your part of the USA?

I made the post saying that pizza came to mind originally as belonging on the list (whatever the list is) then changed my mind (based on some other thoughts), so I guess it's me you're intending to fight against? Or is there a larger anti-pizza conspiracy I know nothing about out there? I don't feel that strongly about it, really, and my boxing gloves have simply worn out from fighting about oh. . .what was it. . .too long ago to remember. Fight if you must. Bravery and loyalty are wonderful virtues. I will just continue to make lists, tally counts and add comment once in a while. Final votes will tell us whether pizza makes the cut or not.

Certainly we could find many forms of the United States if the point was to separate and define. And we do. There is, however, a culture that people both in the country and outside the country think of as being simply "of the country", before they start sorting and separating. That was what I wanted to hear, from any individual who wanted to post, no matter where they were from or what United States was theirs or was not theirs. That question (whose culture? whose country?) could be asked each time someone says "French food" or "Italian food" or "Chinese food" any other sort of food, and naturally the same question is cogent and valuable to ask in every culture or country. This was just a "one size fits all" question, Pontormo. You know, bargain-basement type, not terribly deep or scholarly. A broad sweep of the brush. As for threads that have some import upon the question, there may well be. If you come across them, I'd love to have a link posted . . . To minimize the central role of regional dishes was never my intent. No thesis here, just a question or two about what thoughts might pop quickly into someone's mind if they were asked a question. How I love that line Emerson wrote: "Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis."

Yummy. Just thought of another "strange" cooking method. Smoking fish or meat or poultry but not outside, but rather, in the oven. "Oven-smoked". I've done it several times. Oh! How about "hundred year old eggs". Aren't they "cooked" by being buried in a certain soil and mineral mixture? (Edited to change "thousand" to "hundred". Zeros. How can a nothing stand for a something, I ask you. )

Actually, following that thought along *logically* (something I personally rarely bother to do ) "Chinese Take-Out" would have to be on my list of our culturally defining foods. I read somewhere that the average-size town in the US has five Chinese take-outs in the area. Here, we have six.

As I woke up this morning, all of these popped into my mind. No idea why, but anyway. Baking on bed of salt Roasting inside closed pastry crust or inside clay Simmering inside a sheep's stomach lining. (Or, I imagine, any other stomach lining one could find. But maybe the animal has to be a ruminant. ) Stacking multiple bamboo steamers always seemed an incredibly creative cooking method to me - not "strange", but thought I'd include it anyway . . .

Actually, you've made me realize that I'm talking about two slightly different concepts here. The first is the idea of "cultually defining foods". Which of course would be what a cultural anthropologist would find signs and proofs of when looking into a specific time and place. The second is the idea of "cultural icons" which are clearly understood "signs" that represent a culture. And I think they *are* different things, due to how we communicate ourselves and how we are understood. At first, I was thinking in terms of culturally defining foods, myself. The hamburger, hot dog, and pizza popped right into my mind of being the three things that defined US culture. They are everywhere. (As are so many of the things that others added on this thread!) Then I switched to thinking of cultural icons, and "pizza" did not fit, for that also represents Italy, naturally, and I was looking for something that defined solely one place, in this case, the USA, in a broad and clear swath that anyone who thought of the food would think of the place. ......................................................... Interesting answers, anyway, from everyone. Maybe when I total them we can take yet another "vote" (the democratic way ) and see what comes out tops. (I'll do two categories, the "culturally defining" and the "culturally iconic". )

"S'mores" is the diminution of "Some Mores". It is a dessert that people (it's supposed to be mostly for children, but that doesn't mean a thing to any adult that happens to be there ) make when camping out in the woods. You take a graham cracker, place a chocolate bar on top of it, toast a couple of marshmallows on a stick over the campfire, and when they are just perfect, pop them off of the stick and right on top of the chocolate, where they melt the chocolate a bit. Top with another graham cracker and you have a "s'more". People like them so much that they make weak copies in their kitchen, but to me it's the burnt marshmallow that matters. It's important to remember to always get part of the toasted sticky marshmallows somehow stuck in your hair and glopped onto your clothes while burning your fingers trying to pull them off the stick. Otherwise it just won't taste right somehow. I can't believe I didn't think of those two. It surprises me that your list for the future does not include some form of iconic Asian-American food, Michael. I think mine will. Right next to "tacos". Ahhhh. That would be very very good! Peanut butter is definitely "ours", the peanuts originally by way of Africa (?), but the spread itself only truly loved here. . . When one says "TV dinner" one thinks "USA".

A lot of really good answers so far! Many similar things, yes. When the posts stop coming in, I'll tally up what everyone "voted" for. I don't blame you for wanting to add these, Johnny. If they *were* our cultural iconic foods, we'd probably have a much better reputation in the world-wide scheme of "gastronomy". Let's just keep them quiet, though, hmmm? The price and availability of Maine Lobster is already difficult enough to deal with. I'm just happy you didn't choose milt. Though it *would* be rather amusing as cultural iconography. What, you didn't know it's already available? It's. . .(oh nevermind, I don't have time right now to tell you all about it. . .) ( ) Wow. . .the second vote for "prescription" cuisine. And I have to say the idea never crossed my mind. Interesting. . . Here's my 1950-2000 list: Hamburgers Hot Dogs Coke Corn on the Cob Cotton Candy *or* S'Mores (Do they make cotton candy in other places? Does anyone *outside* the US know about s'mores and how they fit into our culture? I don't know. . .I was going to use french fries for the fifth answer but then thought of their prevalence (under different names) in some other countries. . .)

Name five foods that you think represent the United States as "cultural icons" (across the board, as a nation, not focusing on the regional) during the years 1950 to 2000. Do the same, per your best guesses, for the years 2000 to 2050. I'll leave the screen blank as to my own thoughts for fear of "stacking the deck".

I think there are still a few Tad's around! ← We still have one here in San Francisco. ← Sad. Worldwide domination may be next. Someone really should find that black hole and *make* Tad's "of yore". And for goodness sake, do hurry so I can actually be "on topic".

I think there are still a few Tad's around! ← It always seemed to me as if Tad's was not really "real" in some way. Sort of like an alien spaceship had landed during the wee hours of the morning (probably in the only hour that New Yorkers are not out on the streets, between 4:30 after the after-hours close and before 5:30 when people who open coffee shops have to go to work) and little green men with pulsing fragile antennaes on their heads quickly hopped out of the spaceship and built these strange places that served something they knew was called "steak", that Earthlings liked. Since they were aliens, they never really understood what steak was. As should be obvious to anyone that has ever entered a Tad's "Steaks". It's the trickery of thinking that they actually can get a decent steak for like. . 99 cents or the moral equivalent that makes people *want* to believe that Tad's is indeed a steakhouse and not an alien outpost. I'm still fairly certain that somewhere in each Tads's there is a spot, a black hole, that if it could be found (maybe it's in the men's room - who would want to go there, anyway) and some mystic rite held (maybe waving a bunch of arugula and citing Michael Pollan at great length) the restaurant would dissolve into a huge ugly puff of greasy, potato-flaked smoke, leaving some valuable Manhattan real estate available.

Ah. . .you have hit upon one of my favorite iconic foods that I have never yet eaten! And all wrapped up in a wonderful tale. ........................................... I've always wanted to have yak butter tea, ever since I first heard of it a very long time ago. No idea why, or even how the idea struck me that it was something that must someday be done. My son had a friend when he was nine years old, a little boy from Mongolia. An outgoing little fellow (not so little really, strong and solid he was) with a facility for story-telling. He would come to our house to spend the afternoon and would spike the usual sorts of play that little boys do with endless stories of strange creatures he would invent with startlingly odd names. . . imaginary wars set in various parts of the universe and beyond. . .touched in parts by bits of myth and religion. God was a part of his stories, as was Hell and retribution. His imagination was filled with such richness of imagery and action, the lines of the "here and now" blending seamlessly with ancient tales of the ages, his child's mind like the pages of a book, an adventure tale, vivid with life. I always used to ask him about yak butter tea. "Did you ever have yak butter tea when you were a baby?" I'd ask, as he drank some soda or juice while visiting. "Yak?" he'd always say, puzzled. He never remembered what "yak" meant in his language, each time I asked, so I'd have to make shaggy, furry, large animal movements with my hands and arms to try to show him what a yak was. "Oh, yes!" then he always remembered, and said, "Of course. It tastes okay" in his still-lilting musical English. I think he forgot on purpose, just to make me act silly about what a yak was. And he felt very superior, in his little-boy way, each time his friend's Mom tried to ask the same question, all about yak butter tea. I'm not sure, if I do ever have yak butter tea now, that it will be as interesting itself, as he was in his way. But then again, I might look into the cloudy depths of that steaming cup and see the stories of the ages that filled his little-boy mind, the wars, the mythology, the creatures that walk the earth and other places, the good and the evil. I do believe they might all be there to taste, all in that one steaming cup of yak butter tea.

It could very well have been. If it was, it was a good recipe for usually I can't stand the stuff. I vaguely remember how they wrapped the little sandwiches in paper to serve them, though. . . And yes, Schrafft's! Scrafft's Fifth Avenue, wasn't it across from the library? I think it closed right around the time Lord and Tailor closed and another of those department stores. I can still see the tables piled with silk blouses out lining the streets in the sunshine, selling for some ridiculously cheap price, Shrafft's elegantly ensconsed right in the center of it all, an old dowager with some pride of place left . . . Well. I've thought of two more. Nathan's, which I remember as having two places, now is a major player apparently. And here's a scary one. Tad's Steaks. Gluggg. The one on 14th Street was really dreadfully strange. You could imagine that Mickey Rourke in one of his more frightening roles *lived* there.

I really wish you had had the chance to visit a bar in Williamsburg twenty-five years ago. That is, if you were lucky enough to even find a cab that would take you there.

87 Jermyn Street was also the home of Sir Isaac Newton, wasn't it? The apple on the head guy? I'm rather hoping he turns up as a character somewhere, too. Looks like The Oyster House Siege will be a jolly romp. An excellent way to spend a Saturday night.

In the city: Zum Zum - great grilled German sausages and sides, seemingly authentic. . . Chock Full O' Nuts - decent coffee quick, and I remember the cream cheese sandwich on raisin bread as being a really cheap and fast and relatively healthy lunch. . . Orange Julius - I can taste it now, a perfect Orange Julius with a hot dog. . . Outside the city: Howard Johnson's - BLT's, hot dogs on New England buns grilled with butter, clam rolls, and of course 28 flavors of ice cream!

I'm really glad to see that happening there. Fantastic. I bet they *will* taste pretty good, too. The guy that started that obviously knows what he's doing - lots of background from his family's business. . .the only thing I could not figure out from the website was whether they were hydroponic or not. A greenhouse operation *can* be hydroponically-based without having to state it, can't they? Not that I think it matters (in some ways). Some of the best tomatoes I've tasted recently (a bit strange to think of but true) have been hydroponic.

To which my Not-Really-My-Uncle Earl used to append, "as well as ornamental." SB (would prefer to serve as a decorative centerpiece in this regard) ← You might actually be able to start a nice little side-business, doing just that. People are always looking for interesting table-topper ideas, no? Do let me know if you need any help. ............................................ Another "forgotten food", one of my favorites: ambergris.

It's much more fun reading about everybody else's life. Who does the cooking in your home? Me Do you eat foods from take-out or restaurants or buy ready-made foods often? Take-out about twice a week, restaurants about once a week, ready-made no. Fast-food for snacks for the kids about two times a week. They remain healthy and not overweight. Do you cook absolutely "from-scratch" using unprocessed ingredients often? Aside from eating take out or going to restaurants, I cook three meals a day every day. About half of those meals are from scratch, half not. I'd personally find it too time-consuming and boring to cook each meal from scratch. Are you single, married or living with other(s)? Single Do you have children? Two, ages 12 and 14. They can cook basic things but would rather have Mommy do it. If I had a Mommy here, I probably would too, so how can I blame them? What sort of work do you do? Full-time Mom. Sometimes I think when I grow up I'll be a writer, so I practice at that. Other times I think I'd rather just move to St.Pete's beach and be a beach bum. Do you feel you have enough time to cook the sorts of foods you like to eat? Yes, but the two other people in my family like different foods than me, so usually I cook what they like to eat. I'm interested in the questions of time, culture, society, money and class. As they relate to food and how it fits into our lives, of course. That's funny. So am I! As a question for "extra credit" , is the form of your daily cooking/eating/dining different than it was in your family when you were growing up, and if so, how is it different? Yes, different. My mother did not enjoy cooking so food was never that important. Lots more variety in our foods today, and though we don't always eat sitting around the table, when we do, the kids don't have a book stuck in their face as I remember always doing. . . My reason for posing these questions is to listen to how people are living, in the ways of "food". For I think food is in the category of the few things that do give meaning to life. I've had more than one "lifestyle" with food, myself, and each one is vastly different. I've been married to a man who would eat everything and anything, who loved food, who came from a background where food was a huge part of everyday life. Then I was married to a man who was trained as a chef but who only wanted to eat meat and potato-like things, and who had a very limited (and inappropriately snotty for someone who could not taste) palate. I've been a pastry chef which was great fun, a chef which was good and interesting fun, an executive chef which was immense fun and very rewarding in all ways, and a VP in charge of foodservices for a large corporation, which was really not fun at all. I love to feed my children in ways, but detest it in other ways, for have found it to not be all that it's cracked up to be. What gives pleasure in food, in the ways that we live with it? Are the credos that we are taught "true"? Women in particular have a complex relationship with the kitchen - it's where we've "lived" and worked from, historically. Yet now there are (at least) two conflicting notions of how we should be, in terms of food and cooking, this way that we've used to nurture others for so very long. One way says "Throw off the old shackles! Use what you please in terms of convenience foods, it frees you for other things in life that you can find time to do. . .the food is still good, and good for your family *and* you." Another way says "Focus in on the finest, the best, the most pure and quintessential foods. Take time to cook for yourself and for your family, for they *can* and *will* know and feel the difference." I don't know. I really don't. There might not be an answer. But it sure seems worth pondering, to me. So please give me more stories to ponder.

Here you are, dearie. Zebra for Lunch