SobaAddict70

No cooking recently. Thursday I ordered out from Chola, which is an Indian restaurant located on East 58th Street. I think that Chola is the next Diwan. Their tawa paneer gives the tandoori paneer at Diwan a run for its money. Diwan's lemon rice wins out over Chola's though, although it comes close. I like that Chola's version has peanuts in the mix. Friday -- dinner at Diwan. We ordered the tasting menu, and once again, more food than the two of us could handle. The chai pot de creme was all right, not something I would order again, but it was ok for what it is. Note to Suvir: the food as usual, was outstanding, but please pass on to Hemant that tasting menu portions are just too big. I think I approached my limit just before the venison chops arrived. Soba

Julia Reed gives an oral report concerning Jeremiah Tower's new book Soba

An Italian version of a Brazillian rodizio -- huge portions led by a beef parade in the form of a monstrous 25+ ounce porterhouse steak. The runners up are equally as weighty: William Grimes reports on Tuscan (f/k/a Tuscan Steak) Soba

My memory must be failing then. I thought there was more than one branch. Thanks for the link. (but still not enough motivation for me to learn how to drive...go figure.) Soba

Clearly I need to come up with a brussel sprout tasting menu. But if I can convince Wilfrid, then I can convince you. muahahahah. You haven't had brussel sprouts until you've had them in a pasta sauce. (Yeah, this isn't even remotely Chinese, so sue me.) Does tofu count? Soba

This sort of thing occurs fairly regularly, especially when the Gospel according to Plotnicki is involved. Fortunately, where there are true believers, there are also atheists. And now back to your regularly scheduled programming. Soba

But you said Any reasonable person who read that would conclude that you meant the entirety of the cuisine. Now you've modified your statement to mean that SOME portion of Indian dining revolves around gravy based sauces. Maybe you didn't say it in those certain terms, but you certainly implied it by logical extension. Isn't that a mite too convenient? Once again, a worthy thread has degenerated into the sort of circular sophistry that generally pervades e-gullet especially when certain types of comparisons are the order of the day. May it please the Court -- counsel for the peanut gallery withdraws its brief from the proceedings at hand, caused in part by exasperation and keyboard fatigue. (It's 4:35 am, and I'm going to bed.) Soba

Then perhaps you need to start educating your palate along those lines. Maybe you need to experience food at Indian restaurants in London and in Kuala Lumpur and elsewhere in order to see what we're talking about. Heck, maybe you could spend a couple of days in India (when things have died down of course). If, after all of that you still find that Indian food is overspiced and overcooked, well at least I and some other people can rest easy that you've managed to expand your horizons and not resorted to making the sort of assumptions that are the equivalent of a bull moving about in a china shop. The peanut gallery has spoken. Soba

Has anyone ever been to a Delicious Orchards? Do any still exist? These were common when I was growing up in New Jersey. My late stepfather used to get apple cider, cheese bread, cheese danish, and other specialty foods (a stunning apple pie and a good rendition of Key Lime pie sticks in my memory) at the branch near Spring Lake. If there are any near NYC, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Remember, I don't have a car, so pls be kind. Soba

Akiko, try salting it first and letting it sit to remove some of the bitterness. rinse off afterwards, and see if you like it. funny you say that about it being too bitter because I've NEVER liked coffee, and I find coffee too bitter for me. The only way I'll take coffee is via coffee ice cream. Soba

I thought 2 and 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a point other than for arguing's sake. Soba

bitter melon is used as a veggie, although technically its considered a fruit. trust me, you wouldn't want to use bitter melon as a substitute for cantaloupe. I think a water chestnut is considered a rhizome, and therefore a vegetable. (someone pls correct me.) Soba

That's ok, Akiko. More bitter melon for me. Try it, stir-fried with pork and garlic, in a sauce with fermented black beans and chiles. It's also a big vegetable in the Philippines. Soba

Uh, no. Indian dining does NOT revolve around gravies and curry sauces. Gravies and curry sauces form only ONE component of this multi-faceted cuisine. There are dishes that are not gravy-based and cooking techniques that exhibit as much complexity as those that would result in or with sauces. The tandoori meats at Diwan are one example. The coconut rice at Chola is another example. I cannot believe that you would so categorically compress an entire cuisine to a single sentence, so I will pretend for a moment that you did not post what you posted. With respect to your thesis statement, you cannot template a technique that applies to haute French cuisine to Indian cuisine and expect the same results. A sauce or a chaunk or a chatni or whatever has complexity -- its just not the way you imagine it to be. The complexity comes not only from the ingredients themselves, but also from the sum total of these ingredients being combined in a certain way, the proportions used, and the medium in which their aromas and underlying or hidden flavors are released. Therefore, with respect to Indiagirl's list of lamb dishes, the difference lies in their method of application. In terms of a math analogy, the mathematical statement 2+(3x5) is not equivalent to (2+3)x5, even though the elements of each mathematical statement are the same. Soba

I think you give the common diner way too little credit. CF's goat cheese is pretty common in restaurants in the NYC area. Soba

Of course I hear you, but I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. Indiagirl, of course, beat me to it. I wish I had my Indian cookbooks with me -- the ones I use are vegetarian (I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm a big fan of vegetables) -- in the section on garam masala, there is a description of complexity that approaches the type of diversity that Indiagirl references in her reply to you. Complex lamb? What's dat? Anyway, the sauce has enough complexity to enhance the lamb. But my point is that you have not yet had the experience of having lamb with a sufficiently complex sauce that does not overpower the taste of the lamb, and the reason why is that the education that must take place in order for people to have that epiphany, at least in the U.S., has not happened yet. By education, I mean that people haven't LEARNED what it means to taste a properly complex curry sauce. All they've had, as in your and my cases are bad renditions of Indian food. And this is one reason why I think the Tabla approach fails as much as it succeeds. It's like a chef trying to create avant-garde food without learning how to make a beurre blanc. Most people need to learn how to appreciate a proper garam masala or a chatni or a raita, and then they can step out and explore new combinations or fusion cuisine. Isn't one of the tenets of P-ism, that in order to know all the potentialities of food, that you have to experience it at the source? (I'm thinking of French food in particular.) According to the theory you keep expounding ( ), if I want to learn all that haute French cuisine has to offer, I need to experience it in France, yes? I need to go over to Paris and wine and dine as often as possible, so I can train my palate with those experiences, etc. Same with Indian food. I don't see why P-ism doesn't apply here. Soba

Uh, no, g., I beg to differ. Those two countries have clearly different culinary traditions than India (not to mention that with Pakistan, what you have is a Muslim majority, and a great deal of carnivores), so naturally the approach to cuisine is going to be different. Since many "Indian" restaurants have staff from these countries, its not too much of a stretch to say that the cooks and staff prepare dishes that they know...namely northern Indian-centered cuisine, or failing that, Pakistani or Bangladeshi renditions of what might pass for Indian food, which is to say, not very good renditions at all. For purposes of this discussion, I am applying my definition of "Indian" to mean exactly that...people from India who are Indian. Soba

Hey, as long as we're being honest here....heheheh. Some of the restaurants I've been to in my experience that claim to serve Indian food are owned or operated by Pakistanis or Bangladeshis, and therefore do not have cooks or chefs from India cooking for the masses which pass through their doorsteps. This is important because the standard for a basic dish like butter chicken will obviously be translated to a different outcome if someone without a certain level of experience produces it than if another person with a background in genuine Indian cuisine does. Make sense? Therefore, with that in mind, its no surprise that you've experienced something less than the potential for success. Another reason why I think many people have experienced crappy Indian food is because we (I'm using we to mean most ppl, not ppl who frequent e-gullet) haven't trained our palates to be able to appreciate complexity of spicing. Good Indian food should be able to demonstrate mastery of spicing so that one layer of flavor is easily distinguishable from the next. A garam masala for example, should never contain so much pepper that it "catches the throat". The proportions of spice in a masala should be varied enough that the different flavor components of each of the ingredients should come through with a clarity of taste. This is a problem though, of course, when most people equate Indian food with curry powder. Just add a pinch of curry powder to anything to lend it an Indian flair. People have to be educated that there's a whole world out there, that Indian food is a lot more than that. I also think a lot of the sameness that people find about Indian food in the United States has a lot to do with homogeneity (sp) which is almost necessary in order for such type of food to find a certain level of acceptance with mainstream America. An Indian restauranteur would be hard pressed to offer something approaching high Indian cuisine or even Vedic vegetarian or non-northern Indian focused cooking unless s/he had savvy marketing and PR skills at the tips of his or her fingers. I'd be interested to know the percentages of people ordering things like butter chicken as opposed to uppattham or sesame yogurt smothered potatoes. I suspect we're about to see a renaissance of Indian food in America, if current trends continue. It happens all the time. As people become more experienced with what used to be unfamiliar, more things will begin to pop up such that eventually restaurants will begin to move away from the homogeneity that's heretofore plagued Indian restaurants where every entree is either chicken tikka masala, beef korma or lamb vindaloo (or any number of endless varieties), and hopefully evolve into something better. Look at Japanese restaurants. Twenty years ago, all you had was sushi and Benihana. Now you've got places like Jewel Bako, Honmura An, Omen, Sugiyama and the now-defunct Sono. It'll happen eventually, Steve. Just give it time. Soba

Your points in order: 1a. Isn't this issue open to subjective preference? All of the seven people can argue until they're blue in the face that TBB lived up to its premise this time and might in fact continue to do so at future points down the road, that TBB is probably a better deal [for them] than Diwan. [For them] this is probably a truism, but you or anyone else, I suspect, would be rather hard pressed to establish this as incontrovertible fact as far as the general masses are concerned. 1b. So, I guess there's no difference in terms of an audience's expectations that might patronize say Otto over DiFara's [gee, they're both pizzerias], or Babbo as opposed to Lupa [gee, they're both Italian], or Nobu as opposed to Sugiyama as opposed to Honmura An as opposed to Omen [gee, they're Japanese], or Dok Suni as opposed to Hangawi [gee, they're Korean]. It doesn't matter at all that Diwan's going for people who are interested in authentic Indian cuisine, or that Tabla wants to lure in the hip, yuppie, young crowd who might be more into the concept than a crowd of Indian food newbies. Is that what you're saying, cuz I'm a little confused here. 2. Uh, since when is a chopped salad Indian? Please clarify why a pizza is considered "Indian". Ditto for saag paneer, where the paneer is really Coach Farm GOAT CHEESE and not from milk treated with lemon juice. Cheese fondue? Molten chocolate cake and doughnut holes are Indian? Really? Oh golly gee whiskers! Heavens to Betsy! If this is Indian, I must be in Oz Not distinguishable? Suffer those who beg to differ, for they may yet come up with a persuasive argument I have faith that the average diner can tell the difference between sourdough naan and the typical naan served at any Indian restaurant including that of Diwan, not to mention the myriad of differences between the two establishments. 3. Didn't you just say earlier that TBB wins over Diwan? Wasn't the point made that TBB has food that contains brighter flavors than what was served at Diwan? Am I to ignore Toby's post about the presentation of varied dishes representing regions across India re TBB's food, which for the most part isn't the case as at Diwan? So please explain to me how the statement that TBB is clearly "undistinguishable" from Diwan is applicable, when you and some of the people you've referenced above have just said quite the opposite, in no uncertain terms. Sooooo confused... Soba

I'm all ears.... recipe pls. Soba

Yay for Stone. Stone, you're my hero. Let me clarify what I mean by the TBB/Tabla and Diwan being geared to two different audiences: TBB/Tabla Owned by Danny Meyer Chef = Floyd Cardoz Genre = Indian fusion (Tabla)/Indian fusion and some Indian classics (TBB) Waitstaff/atmosphere/decor = hip, trendy, decidedly modern (most recent visit to TBB, they had club music piped through the sound system) Food = Western ingredients, cooked mostly in a Western or French-influenced fashion but with some Indian techniques and ingredients thrown in. Works most of the time, can be stunning in execution, or mediocre at worst. Agree with Toby -- lots of bright, clean flavor....but (important to me), insufficiently complex enough. Spicing not layered or multi-functional enough; seems as if the spices are not inherent or integral components of the dish but rather something that got added on because the flavor seemed like a good idea. (This last point is difficult for me to demonstrate, but I suppose you can think of it this way -- taste the difference between an artisanal garam masala as opposed to regular store-bought curry powder, and then get back to me.) ------- Diwan Owned by ? Chef = Hemant Mathur Genre = Authentic Indian, elevated to a higher level than most Indian restaurants in NYC (that I've been to, in my experience. Other ppl's experiences may differ.) Waitstaff/atmosphere/decor = what you would expect at a typical Indian restaurant, except that the surroundings are in midtown Manhattan, so things are on the upscale side. Food = Restaurant specializes mostly in tandoori cuisine, although there are dishes which some would expect in an Indian restaurant that appear on the menu. Several items exceed that which others might experience at other, lesser stars. Layering of spicing and complexity of flavors present throughout. Hotness or piquancy demonstrated without overwhelming taste buds. (Qualification: I've only been there once, so I can't attest as to whether there's a level of consistency, but my first experience was quite positive. Judge all of my statements with this grain of salt.) (Qualification #2: Diwan's test as far as I am concerned, will be how they prepare their biryanis. The chicken biryani at TBB sits on a high benchmark for me -- so we'll have to see whether Diwan exceeds that spot.) Ok, I really need to go make dinner now. Have fun without me. Soba

I don't want to sound like a broken record, so Nina, dear, see the points referenced above if you really want to know. I need to go make dinner now. The peanut gallery has spoken. Soba

I'd say that gazpacho isn't an Italian dish. Of the five that are referenced above, only two of them are distinctly Italian in flavor. The other three are decidedly Batali-esque. (I think they're poor examples but I get your point, Toby.) Steve, no one disputes that TBB and Tabla produce delicious food, albeit Indian fusion. I'm saying that people come to TBB and Tabla with a different set of expectations than if they were going to Diwan because the food, the kitchen and the restaurants are geared to a different audience. Someone tell me I'm not blabbing. Soba

Uh, no. The authenticity point is central to my argument. If you happen to choose to ignore that point, why then I can't be held responsible for the consequences. Sure, we can discuss performance. I thought on my first pass at Diwan a month ago (not at the big to do, because if you remember, I was caught up at work and could not get out of it for even 10 minutes), that the layers of spicing were distinct and remarkable. Distinct because I (and many others, or at least the people who were eating there, four of whom were at the original event) could detect one layer from the next, and remarkable, because so many Indian restaurants that I've been to in NYC manage to get this central technique of Indian cuisine wrong. Again, if you want an example, the lemon rice is proof in the pudding. You can quote me on that. I haven't been to TBB (or for that matter, Tabla) recently -- I may go back in the future. Their performance from what I can remember was adequate in all respects. I am not saying that Tabla or TBB don't pass on the point above. They do, its just that the layering of flavors there isn't complex enough ... at least to me. Tabla is really an American restaurant with Indian overtones, so of course the technique behind the cooking is going to be different, and the results will be different. This is important because the presentation is just enough to lend it an Indian twist without fully committing the chef. Of course the flavors are bright -- you're being presented with a palette of bold and contrasting flavors in a way you may have never imagined before, so naturally you're going to describe it as such. (Or, as the Reichl review comes to mind, you might love the concept and hate the execution.) Someone who may not have trained their palate to recognize all that's familiar with what good Indian food is all about may not recognize the distinction and complexity of flavors that I reference above, if that person were to eat at Diwan. Would that person for instance be able to distinguish between an overspiced dish and dish that as the French say, is spiced correctly? That argument can go either way, so its no surprise there if such a person gave negative points to Diwan for having dishes with muddied flavors. (And as for Simon, well, it may have been an off day. ) As for TBB, I had to explain to my server what a plain sweet lassi was. Go figure. Soba

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan. What's your basis for this statement, other than your own opinion? The audience at Tabla is probably a more "upscale" crowd. But other than the obvious financial and atmospheric differences, why do you assume that the restaurants are catering to different crowds based on a desire for "Indian" food. Don't you think it's possible (probable) that all the Upper East Side, Francophile, Haut Cuisine loving people know so little about Indian food and are so scared of venturing onto 6th Street that their choice for Indian food is going to be the heavily publicized, Danny-Meyer-safe Tabla? (Remember, we're not discussing whether people are wrong for thinking that Tabla offers "real Indian food", just testing Plotz's theory/assumption/presumption that Tabla is within the Indian food market.) Well, to answer your query, I point to Nina's statement that Tabla is basically an Indian conceptualized restaurant, not a real Indian restaurant. Therefore, people come to the restaurant with an expectation that is probably outside the parameters that would be set if Tabla were a real Indian restaurant. Tabla offers Indian fusion, but its not really Indian. It's not even Indian Food 101 for Indian food newbies. A person who dines at Tabla may come away with the perception that all Indian food should be judged by what s/he had at the restaurant, and we all know that's as far from the truth as Granny Smiths are to Seville oranges (or Yellow Deliciouses, if you like). Think about it. The restaurant offers a safe, familiar environment to people who might be in unfamiliar territory. They're at a Danny Meyer restaurant, the chef is well-known; they know they'll be in good hands even if the concept is strange. I mean, who ever heard of wild mushroom soup with tamarind, until Ruth Reichl reviewed the establishment and gave it three stars? At the time, the IDEA of Tabla was avant-garde; it was cutting edge. The audience expects innovative food with an Indian twist. They're not expecting meats and vegetables cooked in an Indian manner (with ghee, a chaunk, with artisanal masala, with dosas and iddlys, etc.) Soba