daisy17

Eleven Madison would be at least double the budget. ← I don't know if I agree with that. I would call and see. ← Well, the cheapest dinner option at EMP is $88 before tax, tip and beverages, so if you drink water you're 62% above the midpoint of their price range, assuming 20% service. EMP is out unless they are willing to spend dramatically more. ← I don't think you just order off the regular menu in the private dining space. At least you don't for lunch. They put together a smaller menu for us and it definitely was not the prix fixe price.

Eleven Madison would be at least double the budget. ← I don't know if I agree with that. I would call and see.

Eleven Madison has a private room that meets all of your requirements, but probably not your budget. Still may be worth a call.

They should proofread that menu before Frank gets there.

Just to elaborate, how is any of what you describe more of a burden than going to a bar in the East Village (where I don't live), getting told there's an hour wait, leaving, going to another bar in the East Village (where I still don't live), getting told there's an hour wait, leaving, going to a third bar in the East Village (haven't moved there yet), getting told there's an hour wait, and then either going over to the northern edge of Soho, where I know I'll be able to get in, or going home (which is what I usually do at that point)? I understand and even sympathetize with your slightly mocking my irritation at my inability to get into the East Village places, but I really don't appreciate either schlepping to the East Village by myself only to find out I can't stop anywhere for a drink or (even worse) making a date to meet someone in the East Village and then having to wander around like vagabonds looking for a place with room for us. Especially in the latter case, M&H seems like a no-brainer. (I understand from Nathan that Young People don't mind wandering around so much, but we Grownups find it intolerable.) ← If you think the obvious solution is moving to the East Village, I'm telling you it's not - I live there. I never even try to go at peak times. It is annoying to know that someone who doesn't give a shit about cocktails is taking my seat and tipping poorly, but that's just the way it is. I've reached acceptance on this one.

That's what I was getting at earlier. I don't know what everyone else gets. My hotness and enthusiasm may be getting me the same benefits that ugly disinterested people get. And if you think I'm going to start asking what the buyback policies are, I assure you, I am not. To SE's point about being well known to the house - I think that many of us already make that evident. Sam's post on Dutch Kills, for example - did anyone reading it think that he didn't know Giuseppe?

Yes, you are totally right, and your point about Ruth Reichl's Le Cirque review is spot on. There's no way to control for everyone's personal experience. The treatment of the people around me influence how I feel about a place. How many nights at the bar at Death & Co have I watched people swoon from a taste of their first real cocktail? If I felt that they (and everyone else) were not having a stellar experience, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing the way I do about the place. No matter where I was - regular or not - if I was being treated well and others weren't I would not leave with a good feeling. I realize that can't be accounted for every time and may not be accurate. What I'm grappling with is that I simply don't know how I would ever post if I felt that I had to disclose all these things. Does anyone want to read about it? No. Would I want to come off as bragging? No. I have never taken for granted being treated well (whether I'm a regular or not) and certainly am not about to start sounding like I do. If it means I have to detail my conversations and relationships with bartenders and waitstaff, I probably just won't post. The way to best ensure it doesn't happen? Many posts by many people reflecting a variety of experiences. We have that already.

Who cares if it would be disingenuous? And screw the "biasing the reviewer." Include these things in your writeup of the bar because it's something great about the bar that you want people to know about, and your report would be meaningfully incomplete without it because this is what bars are all about. The "freeness" of it, unless it really goes far above and beyond what would be possible for most any customer in terms of buybacks, etc. seems like a red herring to me. Meanwhile, there are plenty of things that could bias a report I write about a bar far more than any free drink. For example, I was hanging around engaging in drunken banter with some bartenders after hours a few weeks ago. One of them mentioned how he got a bit nervous when his mentor from a previous bar came to visit and wanted to make sure they were really on their "A Game." Then he turned to me and said something like: "honestly... Sam, you know a lot of people and you've known us for a long time. . . I get a little nervous and want to make sure we're on our A game when you come in here, too." Now, besides being a flattering and sweet to say, because I can't even see the ballpark his mentor plays in, it does make me wonder whether it's possible for me to go into most any of the cocktail bars I'd want to go to and have a "typical experience." So, the question is whether I go through all the tedium of disclosing that when I write about a cocktail bar, as well as documenting every discount I might receive and the circumstances in which I received it. It doesn't seem useful or worth it. If I did all he disclosing about possible sources of bias in my recent writeup of Dutch Kills the post would have been 50% longer with 0% added value. ← We're talking about egullet posts here? Frank Bruni doesn't even go into that much detail about who he's talked to on his visits - am I supposed to? If it's disingenuous and unethical to omit the fact that you chatted with the bartender the whole time and tasted some stuff that you weren't charged for, you're going to have to ignore every post of mine about a dining or drinking experience that took place when I was sitting at a bar. Anywhere, even if I'm not a regular. As Sam said, this is what bars are all about. On the buyback thing, I have no clue what policies exist for each bar I go to. I may have my 2nd round bought back and the guy next to me may never see a free drink. There's no way for me to know what the rest of the world gets. The bartender gave me a taste of an amaro I haven't tried, or asked me to try a new cocktail he's working on. So? If I believed that being these details meant that non-regulars would automatically have a less impressive experience then I wouldn't feel comfortable writing posts as I do. There is simply no way to account for all these variables. Got to agree with Sam here - adding this kind of detail just doesn't tell the reader very much.

There should be an express line for rye drinkers.

I agree. I've always thought it was odd to see a customer in a b such as Flatiron Lounge order a vodka on the rocks, or a glass of wine or a beer. I feel like saying, "don't you know you're in one of the top cocktail bars there is? Order a cocktail!" But it happens, of course, every night. And they have to be prepared to accomodate these customers with style and a smile. ← Unsurprisingly, the bartender handled it like a consummate professional, explained what ingredients he lacked for each drink, and didn't show any judgment. (I might have though. )

If not for bartenders opening my eyes to new spirits, I would still be drinking vodka gimlets. I had no idea what the possibilities were and never would have known what to order. Luckily I walked into the right bar. And said "I don't know what to order." I suspect that a bartender can tell when a customer is open to new things, and so many people are not - that's what irritates me the most, not the vodka ordering per se. You're in a bar known for its cocktails and you're ordering a Sex on the Beach and an Apple Martini and it's not 1987? (This happened to me at Flatiron a few months ago.) Open the menu! Ask for a suggestion! There doesn't have to be attitude in making a suggestion to a patron. I've seen it handled beautifully again and again, and almost always the customer is happy to be introduced to something new.

Weird! I was under the distinct impression that M&H, at least, was still using pan ice. The economics of this also seem a bit odd – i.e., Don charging $1/cube, but White Star offering $7 drinks before 9 PM. ← I don't believe Ssam Bar is charging for the ice.

Does anyone know what time Experimental Cocktail Club opens? Can't seem to find that info anywhere. Thanks.

I took a fantastic cupping class today at Intelligentsia's Training Lab. Our small group was led by Daniel and David - two incredibly knowledgeable and passionate coffee guys. Learned how to taste coffee and evaluate and appreciate their various properties. I had a minimal amount of knowledge going in (pretty much amounting to "I like coffee"), and in an hour and a half my eyes have been opened. It seems I have quite a bit to learn. My upcoming trip to Seattle should help my education. They offer a variety of classes on tasting, cupping, brewing, pairings. Highly, highly recommend if you're interested in coffee. (And it was recession-friendly: $10 and beans to take home.) Has anyone else been? Intelligentsia NY Training Lab

This was so interesting, thanks for sharing. The idea that people don't know what they want (until they're given it as a choice) really resonated with me. My taste for bitter was unknown to me for a very long time.

I have to agree with RoyalSwagger: for me, balance is the key to a well-made cocktail. In fact, the first thing I say to people who are new to cocktails is that "it's all about balance." When I watch cocktail bartenders experiment with perfecting a drink, that's exactly what they're doing - tweaking ingredients until there is perfect harmony. I think you can find this in food, but somehow it becomes so much more obvious when you're talking about cocktails. Principally there is balance between sour and sweet (at least in a sour), but I think bitter must also be balanced as well. At least for me - I'm a huge fan of stirred boozy cocktails. And yes, I think balance is a matter of personal taste. I have become very sensitive to sweetness in cocktails - it turns me off in a big way - but 4 years ago there's no way I would have said that. Most people would not agree with me on what sweet is. You mentioned strength of alcohol, but the flavor profile of the spirit must be considered as well (and dilution of the cocktail). Plymouth and Beefeater in that sour are going to give you very different results. Other than the ratio of spirit/citrus/sugar I have no idea how you measure it.

I don't doubt that it tasted good, but i'm a little skeeved out by it! (Also, do I want extra fat/calories from oil in a cocktail? I think I'd rather eat a brownie.) Regardless, it's interesting, I'll try anything once.

How much oil are we talking about?

word.

WAIT A SECOND: who's condescending? I don't lecture my friends about what they should spend their money on. EVER. I also don't buy "locally grown, organic, "sustainable" foodstuffs only" (and I would never use the word foodstuffs) and I also never make salads with eggs on them. I also don't doubt that people are struggling in this economy. What I DO DO is read as much as I can about food and try to make educated choices about what I consume and I encourage others to do the same. What I do care about is cultivating a love of good food in children, and supporting local farms, and knowing to a certain extent where my food comes from. These are not radical notions. I'm pretty sure my first post on this thread said very clearly that I don't see eating well as an all or nothing proposition. People can make better food choices incrementally, in small steps, and where they choose. Or not at all, which seems to be the way others would have it.

This is a perfect example of the kind of rhetoric -- not to mention a willful failure to consider valid arguments raised against orthodoxy -- that many people find annoying about Alice Waters. ← I've thoughtfully considered your arguments, and I have rejected them. Am perfectly comfortable with you finding me annoying, as I'm sure Alice is.

First all, you keep saying "organics," which this is not just about. So stop. Your original argument was that people can't afford to spend a lot of money on food during a recession so AW is irritating and unrealistic. Now you're saying that they don't want to "alter their diets radically" so that's why she's irritating and unrealistic. Fine, so don't listen. Your arguments against sustainable, local food still make zero sense to me. You can join the rest of the country in feeding meat raised in concrete food lots to a bunch of obese 10 year olds with diabetes. I'll spend my money on eating well. I'm done.

I think this Salon article is really interesting. The author challenged herself (and her husband) in response to what she calls the "elitism of ethical eating" to She ends up with $1.20 left over.

HUH? Who is asking you to? This would be, e.g., the implication that one should forego $100 shoes in favor of $100 worth of organic food from the farmer's market. ← I don't tell other people how to spend their money and I don't hear AW doing that either (let alone "cut off all other things in [one's] life"). People should have information and make their own informed choices. If they did, our country would eat a hell of lot differently. (BTW, I can't wait for the swine flu to be definitively tied to CAFOs. Are we going to make this a priority, ever?) And you're right - Josh Ozersky doesn't say that $26 hamburgers should be served for school lunch. I don't hear him say much on important issues or anything remotely healthy, period. I'm glad someone is bringing these issues to people's attention.

Count me as one who is *NOT* confirming that. You don't have to like her or even agree with her to acknowledge that she has played a significant role in the movement. To say otherwise is preposterous. Kind of like most of the posts on this thread. HUH? Who is asking you to?