jmolinari
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Posts posted by jmolinari
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So, had Ruhlman fallen down on his knees and kissed the ground Myhrvold walked on in his review and comments on the greatest book ever written you would not have posted this attack on him?
Seems sort of strange to me. I just do not understand the hatred here for him. I just don't get it.
First of all, it's a challenge of his knowledge. I didn't start this thread, i added my challenges of the recipes to it, to point out to people that there are issues, which lead me to question his understanding. No one here is saying they "hate" the guy. Why do people keep saying that?
Please tell me where i said i "hate" him. How can i hate someone i don't know.
Second, regarding me posting b/c of his critique of MC. Even if he had no made the MC comment, and i had seen this thread, i PROBABLY would have posted my thoughts because i feel pretty strongly about cured meats and food safety, so really saying that those comments triggered me to write here are not accurate. When i read his comment I thought "glass houses, stones, etc", and then someone mentioned this thread so i decided to comment.
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Where does Ruhlman claim to be a chef. He may be trained, but just because you go to culinary school does not make you a chef. IMO he is a well trained home cook and a big voice for cooking at home its their benefits. The point is if there are problems with the book BOTH authors should be blamed and BP more so, because he really IS the chef, even if he hasn't annoyed you yet.
Read Dougal's post again. The salt level was HIGH by 5 grams NOT low.
I agree. Ruhlman isn't a chef, he's trained as one, and as such should also have received formal training in food safety, no?. I equally blame Polcyn for the errors, but Ruhlman is the "PR" person behind the duo, so that's who will get the brunt of it.
And read my post again. I said the salt level of soppressata is low. Dougal discusses the nitrite level for brines.
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Put me down as one of those who simply doesn't understand the Ruhlman-hate so much in evidence in this thread.
I've personally been irked with Ruhlman's postings and positions on food safety for a while now, but i've kept them to myself. What has prompted me to post stuff here detailing the shortcomings of his book was his tweet on the errata Modernist Cuisine issued where he basically said "good thing i waited for MC so i don't have to look at an errata". The way i read that is as a putdown that such an expensive book has to issue an errata list and corrections. As though his book were perfect. Not only is it not perfect, it has gross errors, and some which could lead to someone getting sick. Let's call a spade a spade.
I certainly don't know of a better book to introduce the techniques to a home (non-pro) kitchen enthusiast.
Disagree. Paul Bertolli's book has 1 chapter on cured meats, and it is better written and explained, IMHO, than Charcuterie. Charcuterie has more recipes and formulas and other stuff Bertolli's book doesn't (brines, fish more about sausages).
And I certainly do know of many that are worse. First nomination HFW's River Cottage Meat book - there you'll find brine recipes where the quantity of salt physically will not dissolve, and the universal experience that the recipes turn out inedibly salty. Oh, and lets not forget his *dried* 'Chorizo' that does not use either starter culture OR any curing salt (nitrate/nitrite) whatsoever -- which I consider to be a downright irresponsiblly dangerous suggestion.
I agree. There are worse books, so what?. But comparing something to something which is worse is no way to judge.
The strength of 'Charcuterie' is the descriptive, tutorial writing.
Its weaknesses (such as they are) are generally down to the recipes - and, actually, as with The French Laundry Cookbook, the formula part of the recipes cannot be blamed on Ruhlman!
Ruhlman, like it or not is the public face of this book and pushes it constantly (as he should, he's one author and it's his job to sell it). He put himself in that position. If you put yourself in that position you better be sure you can defend the recipes and methods. You can't stand there and take all the accolades and then point to someone else when there are questions.
I simply do not understand the vilification of Ruhlman because Polcyn's recipe uses a non-authentic cut of pork for Coppa.
I vilify whomever recipe it was/is. Here we can get into a debate on what "authentic" means and go on for weeks, but in my mind coppa is one specific thing. Call something a coppa and it has to be that thing. Want to make it with cubes? No problem, but don't call it a coppa. Dishes and salumi have names associated with a specific understanding of that name, it needs to be used appropriately. Just because you call something a coppa doesn't make it a coppa.
The provenance of the recipes is clearly stated in the last paragraph of page 26 (you all did read Chapter One, didn't you?) - "The recipes in this book, with a handful of exceptions, reflect Brian's work .. While some are wholly his own, most are standard preparations that he has molded over the years to satisfy his own tastes and spirit. ... "
Do you not feel a co-author, one who will be so public with his persona and selling of "everyone should cure at home" (and i think they should too!) has at least some responsibility in the main content of a book? Maybe i'm the only one here who feels this way. Seems like a cop-out to say "well, the contents of these things aren't mine...i'm just here too write, so don't blame me if this doesn't work" from someone who claims to be a trained chef. That may work for a ghost writer or a co-author hired for readability and clarity...but i'm quite sure that's not what Ruhlman was chosen.
And Jason, shame on you - have you forgotten that Ruhlman personally replied in 2006 to your specific quibble regarding 'authentic' Coppa - and explained that this was "Brian's" recipe? See http://egullet.org/p1132680
Not at all. And i haven't yet seen an "errata" or a correction , or even a mention on his blog about the fact that the book's coppa isn't actually coppa.
Why hate the Wordsmith because you disagree with the Cook's recipe?
"Authenticity" does not seem to bother Polcyn much, if at all. Real Merguez wouldn't be made with pork!
And I could generally do without the flavouring additive "Fermento", and much less starter culture ...
If Ruhlman is only a wordsmith, he sure SEEMS TO ME to take a lot of credit for the contents of the book. If Ruhlman had been chosen as a wordsmith i'd be surprised.
I'm not sure why Jason (jmolinari) should be concerned that the moderate salting that Polcyn proposes would be "downright dangerous" and "really critical, potentially harmful".
Wouldn't it be the case that too little salt (and I'm not sure Polcyn is exceptionally light on salt) would increase the risk of obvious product spoilage, rather than sneaky C. bot poisoning.
Are you saying that it's ok to specify a lower than safe level of salt because it would be obvious that the product went bad? First of all, i'm not sure that's true. Do you know for sure that all bacteria that can reproduce at lower salt levels will produce "obvious spoilage"? And it's potentially harmful because you have no idea what the outcome will be of someone who gets severe foodborn illness. Severe dehydration from listeria or salmonella can easily land someone in the hospital. I'd call that pretty critical.
I am astonished at the level of personal vitriol expressed against this author - and doubly surprised to see such a 'hate' thread on the august eGullet.
I don't think there is personal vitriol. No one is calling him "stupid" or "an idiot" or anything like that. People are questioning his knowledge and understanding of food safety as it relates to cured meats where it is a very important issue. Any time you are such a public figure you open yourself up to criticism, and i don't think it's fair to say we shouldn't be questioning him.
Please show me where the personal vitriol is. If i exhibited it, i apologize. I can't have much personally against someone i've never met. What i question is the true understanding of food safety by someone who is touted by many as an expert.
Edit to add:
Just so you know. Reading Modernist's recipe for Cotechino, my head almost exploded.
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But I would like to see some double-blind tests done, before this bit of possible folklore gets enshrined. Maybe his results were due to a particular grind, etc., or maybe he discovered a Higgs boson, or whatever, but so far I don't understand the food science behind rubbery hamburgers and a hard vacuum.
Can anyone else confirm or deny this?
I think this makes perfect sense from a theoretical perspective. A hamburger should be loosely held together when carefully formed and has air pockets between the strands of meat. Put it under vacuum and you make a sense puck out of it that won't crumble the same way a loose patty will. I'm sure the myocin protein has something to do with that as well. There is more meat to meat contact so the protein binds more of the meat strands together.
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The concept of food safety being related to time AND temperature, not just temperature alone is critical.
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Popcorn popped with oil in a pot seasoned with 50/50 mix of chili pepper powder and smoked paprika is about as good as popcorn gets i think.
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Ah HAH...the "significant other factor" Always an unknown:)
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I also get a little color with smoke - in other words the water turns a slightly brownish tint. Anyone have a recommendation for top quality bags to minimize this effect?
Is a mole hill being turned into a mountain? Is it a big deal really?
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I'm using bags for a clamp machine, so they are generally a bit thicker than chamber style bags...but i'm still getting it...maybe it's magic?
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As mentioned before, the water in my Sous Vide bath got a little "smokey" after 24 hrs. I actually can't figure this out. I double bagged them once I saw it for the last 24 hours and it seemed to be fine but I really don't see how the seal was bad. It is almost as if the smoke permeated through the bags. Baffling.
I'm seeing this now with the pastrami. After about 18 hours the water has become slightly brown and there is a very obvious odor of smoke in the whole room where the rig is. It is baffling as my vacuum is still fine on the bags...
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Next up is batch two of pastrami. I'll be doing about 7 pounds this time. That should give me a week to figure out what my next modernist meal will be.
Don't forget to scale everything, including the water...that's going to be a lot of brine.
Or recalculate everything with respect to a new quantity of water so you don't have to use quite so much. The way to do that is to calculate all the % as they list them with respect to the weight of meat+water (instead of WRT just the meat). Then use those % in your formula with the amount of water you choose to use...just make sure they are covered.
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Glad you made one and it's working out! Now time to start experimenting with the pizza dough formula....it's a never ending quest:)
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The amount of cure always has to be in proportion to the meat weight. I think people should have a minimum knowledge of calculations PPM of nitrites and nitrates before they play with curing. It's easy and lets you understand what you're doing.
First, it's important to know that the EU limits nitrites to 150PPM and the FDA limits them to 200PPM. You can choose which to follow.
To calculate your PPM of nitrites just use the following formula:
((weight of cure #1) * 0.0625) * 1,000,000)
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(weight of meat)
So for the bacon on 3-182 in MC: ((24g)*0.0625)*1000000)/4000 = 375 PPM.
0.0625 comes from the fact that Cure #1 has 6.25% nitrites.
Theoretically, this is in fact over the allowable limit, and the fact that the bone wont absorb nitrites, means the meat PPM will be even higher than that.
Having said that, nitrite breaks down pretty quickly over time, and the 200PPM limit is in finished products. So once this sits for 1 wk curing and another week drying some of those nitrites will have broken down into nitric oxide.
I'm with larry. All my cured meats use 0.25% cure #1 or #2 of the wieght of the meat. This gives me 156PPM ingoing nitrites.
At first glance the MC bacon seems high. Maybe the authors can tell us how they came up with that amount of cure.
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Like I said, his seemingly lackadaisical attitude towards really critical, potentially harmful recipe deviations or errors demonstrates that he either doesn't know, and therefore shouldn't be considered the expert he purports to be, or just doesn't care...which is possibly worse.
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The nitrites should keep it safe from botulism, and the increased salt level should make it less likely for other stuff to grow as well, but it's still a risk to have left something out at room temp for 8+ hrs....
really sucks, but i wouldn't eat it.
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Be sure to finish the pasta in the pan and add some starchy pasta water while mixing and tossing to bind it all.
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Basically, and without really thinking it through carefully, I was proposing to violate the cook-chill recommendations, whereby food should either be cooked and promptly eaten (still hot), or rapidly chilled (no more than 6 hours total, from cold to cooked to cold again) to below the germination point of the spores, or around 4C.
You mean you violated the cook-chill recommendation for meat that isn't pasteurized correct? Because you were going to keep it at 120?
If you brought it up to 131 for pasteurization time the 6 hour total no longer applies, right? Just want to make sure i'm understanding.
Well, let's think about that.
Because I was proposing that the meat be pasteurized initially, it's true that the 6 hour rule no longer applies, and I could hold it at the same pasteurization temperature until it completely falls apart.
But I neglected to adequately consider the fact that pasteurization doesn't kill spores, which could then still germinate in that nice 120F Petri dish, and that that temperature is presumably NOT high enough to assure on-going pasteurization. How long it would take for a dangerous level of neurotoxins to develop, and how dangerous it might be, I'll leave up to someone who is a far better microbiologist than I'll ever be.
I don't need Botox, either on the inside or the outside of me!
Bob
Right, sorry. What i should of said is that you intended to hold it for 6+ hours below pasteurization temperatures but well above fridge temps. Even if you had previously pasteurized it, it would still be a problem b/c of the spores. Ok...i understand and agree.
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Basically, and without really thinking it through carefully, I was proposing to violate the cook-chill recommendations, whereby food should either be cooked and promptly eaten (still hot), or rapidly chilled (no more than 6 hours total, from cold to cooked to cold again) to below the germination point of the spores, or around 4C.
You mean you violated the cook-chill recommendation for meat that isn't pasteurized correct? Because you were going to keep it at 120?
If you brought it up to 131 for pasteurization time the 6 hour total no longer applies, right? Just want to make sure i'm understanding.
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didn't even thinkabout looking at teh MSDS...thanks~!
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Do you have any info on the food safety of MAP/Pro gas vs. propane?
Jason,
This doesn't specifically address safety, but in MC, page 2-274, "MAPP gas or oxyacetylene torches work better than propane or butane for producing high temperatures and no gas flavor"
HTH,
Larry
Right, but they don't discuss MAP/Pro which is the MAPP replacement which is discontinued, and i find it kind of curious that they don't even in passing mention that it's food safe blah blah blah. I'm just wondering if anyone has any reference to feel that it's safe or not.
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One more thing, and this is something that I haven't tried yet, but Modernist Cuisine talks about a two-stage cooking technique, where the meat might be cooked at 120F for up to four hours for flavor/tenderness, and then briefly heated to say 131F for the desired amount of doneness.
I think it ought to be possible to reverse that approach, and heat the meat at 131F for just long enough to pasteurize it (see the tables in Douglas Baldwin's PDF), and then back off the heat to say 120 for as long as you'd like for tenderness. I don't know, and certainly can't guarantee, that this "backwards" approach would preserve the "rare" look and feel that you are looking for, but it might be worth a try, vs. cooking the meat for the whole time at 131F.
This would only be "safe" if the meat hasn't been jaccarded or otherwise penetrated contaminating the inside with outside bacteria. Then you'd only have to pasteurize the surface of the meat since the inside is basically sterile. If the meat has been poked you leave the meat at 131 long enough to pasteurize that has to be done timing from when the center reaches 131...which would make the meat cooked to 131, and turning it down to 120 wouldn't do anything.
With a nice thick steak, I can heat up a dry cast iron pan as high as my gas stove will go, throw in the steak, and while the bottom is cooking, hit the top of the steak with a MAP torch, then flip it briefly. Spritzing the surface before hand with a 4% corn syrup mixture (no high fructose syrup) will also help the Maillard reaction. This gives me about right tradeoff between having smoke and grease all over the kitchen (if I use something like grapeseed oil in the pan for even better browning), vs. the torch-only approach, which tends to burn the little bumps on the surface of the meat, but doesn't evenly brown the surface.
Do you have any info on the food safety of MAP/Pro gas vs. propane?
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lancastermike, i believe the "hate" or "dislike" for Ruhlman is coming from the fact that he, to me at least, come across as pompous and self righteous. The information in the book is good, but the fact that some of it is so flawed as to be dangerous makes me question his understanding of the subject. He presents himself as an expert in it, but clearly, based on his writing in the book and the blog, his understanding is at best superficial.
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Can anyone tell me why the recipe for the mac and cheese scales the beer, water, sodium citrate and carrageenan to the weight of the gouda instead of the weight of both cheeses combined?
Seems really strange to do it that way given that rarely will people actually use those exact cheeses, ratios or weights. I had to recalculate all the additives % based on the total weight of cheese i used.
I used 250g of Morbier and 135g of 4yr cheddar. Tastes delicious. It's setting up in the fridge now.
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check ebay for scales.
List of Errors in Charcuterie by M. Ruhlman
in Cookbooks & References
Posted
Exactly. The Myrvold vs. Ruhlman thing came up b/c the tweet where Ruhlman last exhibited this standards was in relation to MC.