Holly Moore

Real butter cream icing?

Thanks. I totally forgot about them. Now, how about a source for a good and gooey cake?

A statement of fact: Or a conclusion based on one's interpretation of events? We all do it. Semantics (as in getting hung up on...) is also a tactic often employed to confuse the issues by shifting the focus to the definition of "the." Life is more fun without one. Feel free to keep parsing my thoughts. That I choose not to respond and to keep on message should not be interpreted that I agree with your thoughts on my phrasing and choice of words.

Once again you state an untruth as "fact" ["the Board refuses to explain its actions"]. The board has explained its actions, here and elsewhere, it's just that the explanation hasn't been to your satisfaction. That's a legitimate matter of debate and discussion, but your characterization of the board as not offering an explanation at all is, at best, hyperbole. Saying the board inadequately explained its action is a lot different than saying the board refused to explain its action. To some that may be mere nuance, but to me nuance is critical, especially when characterizing the motivations of others. ← Happy to rephrase to your specifications. The board has refused to offer a credible, non spun, consistent answer. When I ask a six year old why he hit his sister over the head and he replies, "Cause." I do not consider that an explanation. Beyond that the Board has never justified their action of taking away a long term, merchant's livelihood. And that, rather than semantics, is the point.

My sense from the merchants is that they are not supporting Rick Olivieri merely as "a sense of allegiance to Rick" but for the very specific reason that they object to such unjust treatment of a a long-term merchant, by the Reading Terminal Board. The same way I would feel if the house of a good neighbor had been seized via eminent domain so a shopping mall could be built. This happens to be about Rick Olivieri because that is whom the board chose to evict. But there would be the same reaction to the eviction of any long term merchant, contributing merchant who abided by the terms of his lease and was being evicted solely at what appears to be the whim of the Board. That is the issue. The Board has not offered a single specific reason for their refusal to even offer Rick's Steaks, a 25 year tenant, a lease. Such an arbitrary and aloof exercise of power is fine if the Board is merely contracting for toner for their copiers. But when it comes to taking away a man's livelihood the Board owes that man and the public trust that they serve an honest and responsible explanation. That they don't leaves the public to wonder what sort of secret motivation could make the board so adamant in its stance in the face of merchant and public outrage? Any action taken by the Board of a public trust must stand the light of day. That the Board refuses to explain its actions means either they have something to hide and/or that they are ashamed of their actions and realize their is no justification for not renewing the lease of a solid, long-term merchant.

What's the worst case? They eat one of Tommy's pork sandwiches instead? Horrors! ← Once again, no smilie used, leading to confusion about a portion of my post. I must remember smilies are my friend. The above statement was in jest with the added benefit of highlighting a petty management gesture that has most likely had absolutely no impact on RTM customers or on Rick's Steaks.

Actually you gave me partial credit for one answer. Also by removing the Rick's Steaks location from their web site map, Reading Terminal has left shoppers wandering the aisles aimlessly in search of a cheesesteak. Beyond that I am more concerned with the long term impact of the Board's unjust and adversarial action on a Philadelphia institution, than today's shopping experience. It is the long term damage being done by this fiasco that I fear.

Has the Pike Place Market board and management ever evicted a long term merchant at the end of his lease who ran a good operation, abided by the terms of his lease, was president of the merchant's association and who played a major role in the market's turn-around? Edited to ask: Did anyone else, besides Sandy and Bob (posted in a separate thread) receive a reference to this article from RTM manager Paul Steinke? I'll be glad to endorse Paul's membership if he would like to participate directly.

Unless I received a judicial appointment of which I am unaware, I am not a decider of fact. I can form opinions and arrive at conclusions on the actions of a board of directors responsible for a Public Trust. Hopefully I present my opinions and offer my conclusions powerfully and persuasively. Bob, you declare these opinions and conclusions to be BS speculations. Is that a statement of fact or an opinion/conclusion? What makes my opinions and conclusions B.S. ? That you disagree with them? I am sorry you found my metaphor so distasteful. I understand. I felt the same when an Amish merchant's sincerity was impugned earlier in this thread. Until this issue is resolved, I will continue to bring whatever pressure I can on the RTM board. They have acted unfairly. They have taken away a family's livelihood. The have given no sound explanation for why they initiated the issue, absolutely no defense for their actions other than they can so they did, and it is their inflexibility that keeps it alive and me attacking their actions.

Anyone know if anything is happening on the legal or the common sense front?

For one thing actions that lead to the unheard of canceling of the Dutch Festival. For another, the long term effect of their actions that are killing merchant morale. The market works because of the merchants, not because of the guys in suits. By intimidating merchants and by creating a "who's next" mentality, they are destroying market tradition and spirit. Beyond that, as much as I try, it is impossible to totally separate my intense distaste for the market's and board's actions in the eviction of a long term merchant, from my feelings for the market as a whole. All the headlines, the front page of the Daily News, the petition, Dunston's incredibly poor interview in the Daily News - all of these are detracting from the public's perception of the market. Rick Olivieri's image, and I believe it is deserved, is that of the little guy, the underdog, fighting uncaring and aloof management. That is hurting the image of the market, and that hurts the Philadelphia Community. It is a matter of degree - opening Sunday is good. But if that leads to forcing merchants to be open on Sunday, that is bad. Asking / suggesting is fine. Building a case that the merchants buy into is fine and is the way that those responsible for a public trust and Philadelphia institution should work with merchants. Forcing, evicting, intimidating, mandating is heavy handed and damaging. Anything that stresses the merchants, takes away the good vibes and the spirit of the market and that both directly and indirectly makes the experience worse for the customer.

I've been involved in enough market research studies to know that 1. I can get just about any answer I want and 2. people are sufficiently complex that answers don't indicate action. "What days should RTM be open?" will produce different answers than "Should RTM be open on Sundays?" Even a answer like "I'd shop at the market on Sundays at least twice a month is not the least bit accurate in predicting whether the person saying that would ever actually go to the market on a Sunday. Beyond that is there an incremental benefit to opening Sunday or staying open later? New sales or mostly existing sales spread over a greater length of time? I keep asking, what are the problems now that requires the market to all of a sudden be run like a shopping mall? What is broken? All this strikes me like the recent MBA grad coming in to the family business an attempting to bring it into the 20th or 21st century. More often than not the business suffers, falters, loses moral and the uniqueness that once made it more special. Dunston and his gang are implementing shopping mall 101. - Every business opens and closes at the exact same time. - Sundays - that is 1/7th of the week. If we're not open Sunday we are not maximizing our sales potential. - Tenants are disposable. If Macy's leaves, insert Gimbel's. Burger King being a tough negotiator, bring in McDonald's. Loyalty and tradition has nothing to do with it. Tenants are the serfs and landlords are the heads of the manor. - Drive business to the mall by having the most famous tenants. Tony Luke's for example. So what if that means evicting a merchant who has run a good business for twenty five years, one that has been passed along from father to son. The thing about shopping malls is that just about all the businesses are chains. One chain could be running five businesses within a mall under different names. These are the player's. There is no sweat equity in any one store - or to use their phrase, "location." No big deal if a lease is lost, they'll just open at a new mall across town. They are used to having the mall management dictate hours and days open. That's the way they play the game. Shopping malls don't have history and tradition. They are not "institutions." They are just real estate ventures. Want to bet that if not this year, then definitely next year, "Chestnuts roasting..." will be playing on the RTM sound system come October? Shoppers will soon be able to buy gym memberships at a kiosk near the main seating area? And be sure not to miss the biggest ever President's Day sale at the Reading Terminal Market. And, dare Dunston to dream, build a bridge across Filbert Street, and it will be "Reading Terminal Market at the Gallery." Progress is supposed to make things better, not worse.

Had breakfast at Arthur Bryants. Planning on lunch at Gates and Oklahoma Joes. Dinner may be in Wichita or it may be fried tacos. Or I may have fried tacos for breakfast tomorrow AM. Alas, Calvin, Winstead's as you knew it, and I remember it from my only visit in 1969 is no more. In it's place - though still under the same name - a pseudo Winstead's - same menu, but all slicked up and cooking way ahead of order. Their malteds are still great but the fries and the burgers disappointed big time. Bryant's is Bryant's is Bryant's. Some things never change and that is good. Had my first Arthur Bryant's at their original, original location. This morning,s was every bit as good.

What about the people attending the convention? Y'know, customers? I'm not suggesting that the Convention Center should officially dictate the operating hours for RTM. I actually think that Market management should be better-selected, with more representation by vendors, so that they can work out compromises that would serve the interests of the market and of the vendors. I would hope that a majority of food merchants would agree that it is a bit odd to for a food-providing market to be "open" yet have limited food for sale, despite having a huge pool of customers staring at them. If I were brokering a compromise, I'd ask that a certain percentage of food merchants agree to voluntary participation in specifically offering food up to closing, so that a customer would feel that a critical mass of businesses were open without mandating that all businesses change their model. I get that the hours of produce vendors are convenient for you. They're not for me, or anyone else who works the fairly standard hours of 9-5, unless their place of employment is immediately adjacent to the RTM. It's a sore spot for me that I work several blocks from RTM and live several blocks from the 9th St. Market, yet have to rely on Acme, SuperFresh, and Whole Foods for produce because they're the only businesses open when I get out of work. The proliferation of farmer's markets does indeed help, but the markets do not have nearly the variety of produce. ← I suspect most people attending a convention will break at conventional times for lunch. I'm at one in KC right now that even closes down the exhibits for lunch. So I really don't think if this is much of an issue. If it is, then it is a question of supply and demand. The market as in economical market as opposed to the board of the RTM will entice food vendors to stay open. Same for the shoppers. If there is enough interest in produce at 5:30 PM more produce vendors will be open. Traditionally and hopefully into the future, the Reading Terminal Market has always been an amalgamation of independent businesses who work together for the good of the market and themselves. Among other entitlements, they set their own hours according to what made good business sense to them. What Dunston and the management are trying to do is turn the market into a shopping mall. The Reading Terminal Market has been doing very well without their meddling.

Thinking about the North Star this evening but can't find any info - anyone have an address? Thanks.

Sandy, are you certain that the Convention Center Authority can abolish the RTM board at their whim? I seem to remember some assurances back when the deal went down. I would hope that there is a protective covenant that protects the market from direct management by the Convention Center Authority. Their indirect management is doing enough damage.

Let me put it more succinctly about that convention goer wanting a 4:30PM cheesesteak or pork sandwich or whatever. I don't give a damn. Only people that care about a convention goer's late afternoon cheesesteak accessibility are the Convention and Visitors Bureau and the Convention Center. They get to set the rules for the market merchants??? As to #9 in Sandy's questionnaire - I missed it. I didn't skip it. My feeling is that the locals know who will and who will not be open late. If not they will learn after one visit. It doesn't really change from day to day.

Guess I'm the only person who doesn't get Holly. I've been trying to figure him out for a very long time.

That's cool. I should charge extra for "essence." But any and all ideas are welcome. Like Mikey, I'll eat most anything and, on occasion, even dine. Breakfast this AM was more miss than hit, which surprised me. Went to Bell Street Mama's. Neat place, neat vibe, neat staff. But overcooked poached eggs on my corned beef hash and crumbly biscuits. Maybe I should have ordered something else from the hundreds of items on their breakfast menu. Going to prison this afternoon, so not sure I'll have time for lunch. Should be free by dinner - I'm thinking either BBQ or steak. North Star sounds real tempting.

1-2 percent is probably accurate for basic super markets. I was guessing more like 5% for a place like Whole Foods.

Thanks, Made a few wrong turns and drove past it on my way to Town Topic Inc. It looked interesting. If I wanted to have one genuine Kansas City steak while in town is that my best bet? Two for two so far. Good 'n greasy cheeseburgers at Town Topic Inc. Waitress, grill guy and customers sitting at the counter could all have been from central casting.

First question. Why is it so friggin hot? Eating wise I got off to a great start - Stroud's. The last time they had a party of one on a Sunday might be never. Things go slowed down when a party of thirty walked in unreserved. I was sitting next to a party of 12. Also in my immediate vicinity - a family celebrating "Nana's" 95th birthday. I'm guessing the typical Sunday dinner table is two generations, if not three. I had the fried chicken served family style for my family of one. It's too bad they don't export their chicken gravy - as good as any I've had. Chicken outstanding. Cinnamon rolls the same. The sad news is Not sure where I'm heading for dinner tonight, assuming my stomach is up to the task after Stroud's. I'm still going to hit Winstead's. It's the Calvin thing to do. Thanks for the other great leads. You know sometime soon I'm going to be downing some deep fried, neon orange taco's.

I'm going to come at this from two angles - first as a student, and then as someone who taught restaurant business management to chef training students. Way back when I graduated from the Cornell Hotel School. Doesn't get more prestigious for hotel or restaurant management. My sense is that CIA would have the same impact on chef training students. Here is what I found: 1. Prior to graduation I had six job offers from the top of the line companies in the business - I ended up joining McDonald's but that's for another thread. Point is, graduating from the CIA your employment opportunities out of college are probably better than graduating from any other chef training program. 2. About seven years out I found myself stranded in Stevens Point WI and looking to get out. It's lonely out there, and companies aren't that eager to go to the expense of flying in people from Wisconsin for an interview, much less relocate them. I contacted the alumni placement officer at Cornell and within a week got a great job from a Cornell alum after a 15 minute phone interview. Ended up back in the NY area. Two points here - the alumni network is strong and the opportunities that flow through the placement office are top notch. 3. Other than Wisconsin, Cornell on the resume always got my resume read. Same with CIA, I'm sure. 4. Great parties at the hotel show and the restaurant show. Great rooms at Statler Hotel (the student run hotel) when you return to campus. Great hospitality from fellow hotelies as you travel around the world. 5. The impact of "Cornell" declines the longer you are in the business. Three or more jobs out from college, experience and achievements on the job start playing a bigger role in the interview process than education - except perhaps if a fellow Cornell grad is in on the interviewing. CIA on your resume ten years from graduation won't be that great a factor except, perhaps, as a tie-breaker. From an instructor's point of view - I taught restaurant business management to both restaurant management students and chef training students at Philadelphia's "The Restaurant School." With the chef training students, a percentage of them were there on Pell Grants. And a good percentage of them seemed to be mainly treading water as opposed to pursuing a good education and training. My gut feel is that a greater percentage of students at CIA or Johnson and Wales are going to be highly motivated and that is going to impact on your learning experience. What I'm not sure of is whether a person learning in classrooms, be it the CIA or a community college, is going to be better prepared if he/she had apprenticed at one or a few great restaurants. However, in his post, WisoNole was very persuasive as to the caliber of the instructors at a place like the CIA. Beyond WisoNole's post, a good culinary education will likely give you a much better knowledge of the restaurant business and the front of the house.

This looks like one of those forced choice questionnaires politicians love so much as a campaign tool. But what the hey, here it goes. 1. Reading Terminal Market is a collection of small merchants. RTM functions both as a market for meats, poultry, poultry, produce, fish and such and as a place to eat breakfast, lunch, snacks and, perhaps dinner. It is a farmers market but not just a farmers market. Much of the food ingredients are not locally grown. Then again, even at many farmers markets along country lanes, many foods arrive by container ship rather than tractor. For some it is a convenient lunch stop, for others it is a destination meal, For others it is a provider of good stuff to eat while doing one’s shopping. 2. Not clear whether you are talking revenues, square footage or operations. Without peeking at their web site, my guess is that in terms of square footage - the market is 65% raw ingredients/prepared foods and 35% eat there stuff. In terms of number of operations, again without peeking, maybe 50/50. No idea about revenues. 3. Whatever the customer base wants. NOT whatever some cold-hearted, board chairman’s master plan based on his extensive shopping mall management experience dictates. My feeling is that things are fine just the way they are. My fear is that the board, which was only formed because of the construction of the convention center, would like to slant the scale in favor of the touristy convention goer as in “Golly ma, there’s that Tony Luke’s place I saw on the ol' T & V.” 4. Net or gross profit? Acme or Whole Foods. I did time as a “merchandiser” (buyer/controller of shelf space) for a supermarket chain. The common wisdom was that our profit, in areas other than deli/prepared foods, was limited to the 1 or 2 percent we received back from manufacturers for paying our bills within 10 days. Otherwise, break even. But in terms of percentages, a net of maybe 2 to 5 percent. 5. Again, net or gross. Varies widely with type of operation. Maybe a net of 5 to 12 percent. But one can not compare percentages between supermarkets and restaurants. Supermarket volumes (sales) are vastly greater. 6. For a small business like a market vendor it is all about cash flow - not percentages. Cash flow is great when the market is packed, not so great when it isn’t. Percentages vary all over the board depending on the products being sold. 7. I’d say both all of the above and no competition it’s unique. I think the quality of the farm goods at the local farmers markets and especially the head house farmers market are far superior to RTM. I specifically go to RTM for all manner of meat from Harry Och’s. More often than not it is when heading to Harry Och’s for beef, lamb and such that I end up buying my produce at the market. RTM is a destination location (it’s unique) for Dinic’s pork sandwiches, Fisher’s pretzels, Harry Och’s aged beef, Jack McDavid’s rich man’s gravy, Bassetts butterscotch swirl ice cream, Dietner’s chicken wings and a lot of other stuff that either because of uniqueness or quality you can not easily find elsewhere in Philadelphia. 8. Convention going businessman that the guy is, he's on expense account. He’ll hop a cab to Pat’s or whatever the cabbie recommends. Luckily, being a business man who knows what the hell a plenary session is, he is sufficiently savvy to understand that RTM is not a food court for the Convention Center and that its merchants should have the option of whether or not they should have to stay open to feed him. The merchants are smart businessmen. If it makes financial sense and if they can maintain the quality of their product when business is very slow, they will decide to stay open.

I'm in KC for a convention Sunday thru Wed AM. That's the excuse. Mainly I'm there to rectify a major gap in my website. Winstead's is on my schedule in honor of Calvin Trillin. I'll be heading back to Arthur Bryant's - last time I was there was maybe 20 years ago at their original location. Gotta eat some more barbecue. No interest in fine dining or ethnic dining this trip. Just eats. Any suggestions?