Varmint

It's all a matter of incremental expansion without undergoing a proper gutting.

That part of the kitchen is too narrow and isolated, too. The fridge doors open there that create more of an obstruction. Here's that view:

What the diagrams don't show is that the "walls" where the sink and dishwasher are to go are huge, plate glass windows. This should give you an idea: It's all glass on the right above that shallow tiled ledge. It works to put a sink there, but not a range and hood.

Currently, the china and glasses are stored in the cabinet above the cooktop. The flatware is stored in the drawers under the microwave. We would have stored the dishes in the new upper cabinet where the marble slab was. Right now, when the L'il Varmints eat at the counter, we may have one of them get the flatware out. Cella or I get the dishes, as we don't want them in the cooking area (and they couldn't really reach over the cooktop -- nor would we want them to). Clearing dishes is a breeze right now from the bar -- it's 2 steps. The kids don't need to do anything, really. When we eat at the dining room table, the older kids bring their dishes to the bar area. I see the issue of the distance. At dinner parties, the dishes get stacked around the sink, on the bar, and on the marble slab. We invite guests who like to do dishes! Marcella does the bulk of the dishes, but I do about 30%. The kids to not do dishes -- yet. There currently is no gas in the kitchen. Our hot water heater, which is located in the basement at the other end of the house, is gas. So yes, a gas line needs to be run to the kitchen. New water lines would need to be run from their current locations. Yes. And the short wall sticking out between the compactor counter and the marble slab contains a circuit breaker and lots of electrical switches.

Those are great comments, Dave, but I just don't see any other solution right now. Talk to me, oh wise one! And remember the budget!

I don't have room for such an awe-inspiring piece of equipment. I'm most likely going with the 36" DCS 6 burner rangetop.

Our current faucet is fine. Thank god.

In the spirit of candor, here's my appliance budget, which is probably higher than what I'll actually spend: 1. Rangetop $2,500 2. Hood $1,500 3. Double ovens $2,500 4. Ductwork $ 200 5. Sink + Disposal $1,000 TAX $ 527 TOTAL $8,227

Hah! I got one of those for Christmas. Plus a bread knife with the adjustable sizing arm. Anyone want these???

I did a medieval party a few years back. I dressed, of course, as the jester. My favorite costumes came from the couple who dressed as rats, representing the plague. They handed out business cards -- they were solid black.

There won't be any hickory in this kitchen. The cabinets will likely be painted!!!! It's just a matter of keeping some continuity in the kitchen.

That's a good thought, Jonathan, and it's something that I looked at this morning, yardstick in hand. It very well may be possible and even necessary, but until we remove some of the existing cupboards, and counters, it'll be hard to decide. The current marble slab area is about 38 inches out from the wall. Carving off 8 inches may be enough, but I'm not sure. Since I'm working with a cabinet maker, it may be that he can do a 28 inch lower cupboard. It's pretty funny how a couple of inches makes a big difference (no snickers from the peanut gallery, please). I'm pretty sure I'll go with the double ovens. If I install a standard double oven unit, that'll leave me with some room (about a foot) under the lower oven for another drawer. I'm going to start another thread about the importance of ovens.

Yup, that's likely the case. There's some quirks with this job that may require us to go with some custom stuff -- but remember, all we're doing is painted plywood. Very cheap stuff. Robyn, I'm a lawyer. I've already had one of my partners (a construction lawyer) get me a homeowner-friendly contract. One of the beauties of working in a decent-sized firm. Oops, I screwed up in my own post. Obviously, this quote: is my own, not Nick's. I just started a spec sheet -- here it is: KITCHEN RENOVATION SPECS – JANUARY 14, 2004 1. DEMOLITION • Remove upper cabinets above current cooktop • Remove cooktop and sink cabinets • Remove cabinets by driveway window and surrounding compactor & grill • Remove all ceiling level cabinets • Cut off end of cabinet next to wall ovens to make flush with wall • Remove current wall ovens 2. PLUMBING, GAS, ELECTRICITY, HVAC • Run gas line to cooktop location • Run plumbing for new sink • Run plumbing for dishwasher • Add required outlets near sink • Add wiring for new disposal • Add new disposal switch • Add electrical outlets near cooktop (if necessary) • Wiring for cooktop and hood • Check wiring for new wall ovens • Reconfigure ductwork near window • Reconfigure ductwork under current sink cabinet • Replace lighting where appropriate • Prepare wiring around I-beam for lighting 3. CABINETS AND CARPENTRY • Create new wall oven space • Configure cabinets above wall ovens • Build and Install Lower 24” cabinet to replace marble slab (3 linear feet) • Build and install upper 12” cabinet over old marble slab area (3 linear feet) • Build and install cabinets for cooktop (5 linear feet) • Build and install cabinets to house dishwasher and sink (~9 linear feet) • Build and install housing around I-beams • Countertops – tile? • Replacement cabinet and drawer pulls (28) • Need to determine cabinet configuration (drawers, lazy susans, etc.) 4. INSTALLATION • Cut and install ductwork for hood • Install stainless backsplash • Install hood • Install cooktop • Install wall ovens • Install dishwasher • Install sink and disposal • Install lighting 5. FOLLOW-UP • Paint cabinets • Floor configuration • Replace Sub-Zero panels So, what'd I forget?

Yup, that's likely the case. There's some quirks with this job that may require us to go with some custom stuff -- but remember, all we're doing is painted plywood. Very cheap stuff. Robyn, I'm a lawyer. I've already had one of my partners (a construction lawyer) get me a homeowner-friendly contract. One of the beauties of working in a decent-sized firm.

Oh, the concern with the gas oven is cleaning the sucker. I want self cleaning, and from what I can find, only Viking has that, at a price of $5K. Thus, nothing gained.

Why would you get a dual fuel range and a separate wall oven (probably electric)? An all gas range would cost considerably less and give you flexibility of having a gas oven in the range and the separate electric wall oven. Good point. Something to consider, eh?

My carpenter on this project is a cabinet maker. It won't cost him that much to fabricate something that will match (or, more likely, appropriately contrast with) the existing cabinets. I showed him the new design today, and I hope to get a price estimate soon. Of course, I really need to prepare a comprehensive spec sheet for him.

Or I convince Mrs. V that they just don't make the sinks she wants and keep our existing one!!!

How about this? That second sink is probably too small.

The second sink needs to be adjacent to the main sink, simply because of food clean-up (i.e., disposal). My wife wants to dump the scraps into the one sink, and then rinse in the main sink. The "prep" sink would need to be adjacent to the main sink. This is one of her 2 requests in our kitchen update.

And what about those big-ass commercial basins? Usually, these are free-standing assemblies with legs. Why not build these into your cabinetry?

Why don't people buy 2 separate sinks and put them beside each other rather than a double sink that is not what they want? Mrs. Varmint wants a double sink, but she wants one basin to be HUGE and the other just to be big. She hates the "disposal" basins. Any guidance?

I have a great Coffee Crisp story. My wife and I were eating a magnificent dinner at Gramercy Tavern with my in-laws and Fat Guy & Ellen. This was one of the best meals we have ever had, and we were having a great interaction with the sommelier and the captain (Christopher Russell, who is now at Union Square Café, I believe). The sommelier (who is Canadian, his name is Paul, and he’s at Hearth, I believe) brought us perfect wines with each dish, and he occasionally challenged us to name the country of origin. I recall one wine from the Golan Heights. When we had finished the savory portion of the meal, Christopher informed us that the chef had prepared a special pre-dessert, and upon each plate was a single Coffee Crisp, still in its wrapper. Paul then told us that he had just the perfect thing to go with the Coffee Crisp, and out he came with the milk. It’s the first time I’ve ever had a sommelier serve me milk! Ah, those wacky Canadians! This is off topic, but another funny moment in the meal was when Christopher informed us that the chef had made us a dish to honor us and our Southern heritage. He brought out a bowl of canned boiled peanuts that I had given to Fat Guy and Ellen as a gift the prior year. They don’t like “bawled” peanuts much. No wine was paired with this course, however!

Hell, I could add a warming drawer in the space where my wall ovens are currently located, too. Having two individual ovens takes up a lot more room than an integrated double oven. Anyone use warming drawers?

I currently have a 4 burner electric cooktop, two ugly (but functional) convection wall ovens, and a downdraft charbroiler that doesn’t work. Even when the charbroiler worked, I didn’t use it very often. I can grill outside. It’s very rare when I actually broil something in the ovens. I was thinking of getting a 36 inch dual fuel range and one new wall oven. That’d give me more functionality than I currently have, plus giving me a better broiling situation (as the range’s oven would vent to the hood). However, I’m starting to question this logic. The range would cost me about $5500. The oven would be another $1,000 to $1,500. With the range, I’d lose all the storage currently available under the electric cooktop. Why do it this way? Because of the broiling. This doesn’t make sense to me anymore. Why not buy a cooktop for about $2,000, and a dual convection wall oven for about another $2,000 - $2,500. That’s $2,000 - $3,000 less than my prior arrangement, and I keep the storage space under the cooktop. I also don’t worry about an oven’s performance as much as a cooktop’s, so I could even get cheaper ovens if need be. What are y’all’s thoughts?