robyn

To love everything is to love nothing. The odds of getting a little or a lot of even one great thing from any chef in any restaurant are long. Even longer if you're looking for two. Like I've said - the key to something being great is being able to remember it 5 or 10 years down the road without benefit of resorting to pictures or notes. Whether it's a dish in a restaurant - a piece of art - a professional success - a loving moment in a relationship - or just about anything that was wonderful in your life. The converse is also true - in terms of the terrible things. What person my age can forget where he or she was the day JFK was killed. And people your age will always remember where they were when they heard about 9/11. And you will always remember the most terrible important personal things - as well as the terrible trivial things - like the worst dishes you ever had (I can remember those as clearly as the best - just can't remember the ones in the middle). Robyn P.S. Forgot to mention - you're young - and you should try a lot of things. But you have enough years left that they don't have to be itty bitty little pieces of things in tasting menus. The point of dining isn't to wind up 40 years from now having the most itty bitty little pieces you can eat.

I've never been to either of Keller's restaurants, so if this is only about him and his tasting menus I have nothing to say. But to the extent it's relevant, as a point of fact I've had sea urchins on tasting menus at several restaurants. I think this "one bite" stuff is a bit exaggerated. Unless, as I said, it's strictly a Keller thing. In which case, though, it's so idiosyncratic to his two restaurants that I wonder why it's worth making any kind of deal about it. ← I think with Keller - one bite is really one bite. From the pictures I've seen of food at Alinea - and based on my experiences with other tasting menus - you're dealing with massively larger portions. I think Keller may be somewhat idiosyncratic - but - because he's the most famous domestic chef in the US today - and maybe the best - what he does is important IMO. The meal I had at Per Se was the most technically perfect meal I've had in the US (although it wasn't the most enjoyable). Robyn

But if we aren't arguing about that, what ARE we arguing about? We agree. ← The original argument was about Bruni's article. Don't think everyone agrees with what he said. Robyn

Sushi Yasuda, that's an amazing story! If all places are that accomodating, then there really IS no problem. My brother has been reluctant to go to WD-50 because too many of the signature dishes there are things he doesn't eat. How accomodating are they? (Or should we talk about that in the WD-50 thread?) ← There are obviously people with so many food issues that they can't eat reasonably at a lot of places. Or - for example - people who are vegetarians. They shouldn't go to sushi restaurants in Japan. But for people with just a few problems - well most can deal with the issues by simply having even a very limited choice when it comes to deciding what to eat. And things that may be easy to do in terms of preordering when you live 5 minutes from a restaurant are obviously harder to do when you're 5000 miles away (especially if you're working in a foreign language). By the way - I never said tasting menus should be abolished. I just don't care for restaurants where that's the only option. I don't hear anyone here arguing for no tasting menus - or only tasting menus. Perhaps I am wrong. Robyn

Robert can speak for himself - but I'm not saying that at all. I'm sure there are things I haven't eaten - like I didn't eat whale in Japan (too politically incorrect) - but - like I said - I'll try anything once. I've even had swan (it's very gamey - don't go out of your way to get it). All I want is a choice of 2 or 3 in my courses. Don't think that's too much to ask. Robyn

I never really had a lot of classical French cuisine. Our "food teacher" in France always wanted to take us to the new places - Jamin - Archestrate - stuff like that - within a year after opening. I ate lots of stuff I'd never eaten before. Classical stuff we did eat were things like our first hot foie gras with Andre Daguin at the Hotel Du France in Auch. And I guess what I've found over the years is that I'll try anything once - because who knows? But if Nathan says he hates sweet potatoes - and assuming he has eaten them prepared properly before - he will at best be tepid about the best sweet potato presentation in the world. Just like I will never really enjoy "well hung" game. Moreover - there are things that I think are ok - things I like - and things I really love. Ditto with my husband. If a great chef makes a great quail and a great pork - I will always go for the quail - and he will always go for the pork. We will both be happier with what we've ordered than with what the other has ordered (I know - we usually swap dishes to find out). It's hard to dine for 40 years (or even 10) - and not have some things that you enjoy more than others. Robyn

Actually that's not true with respect to a lot of types of Japanese restaurants. Traditional kaiseki restaurants in Japan (at least the ones I went to) are very formalized ritualized beautiful (to the eye) mostly vegetarian dining experiences which frequently involve foods that are important in terms of meaning (seasonal - religious and otherwise) - but not very delicious. E.g., the most important dish I ate at one dinner was steamed bamboo. The presentation was gorgeous - and that's all I have to say about that dish. Robyn

Alarming? If that's alarming, what adjective is left for things like—Darfur?Seriously, Per Se is into its third year. Imitation usually comes quickly in the restaurant industry, but no more tasting-menu-only restaurants have opened in New York. I think it's safe to say that those who find tasting menus an affront to their sensibilities will still have other fine dining options for a long, long time to come. We've definitely got the message you don't like tasting menus, but you should be careful about assuming that people with different preferences are experientially deprived. You know, maybe the people ordering tasting menus actually like them. Why is it necessary to assume that there's something wrong with this? ← Sometimes I like tasting menus - sometimes I don't. Depends on the menu the restaurant is serving the night I'm dining and the amount of food involved. It's really as simple as that. Robyn P.S. Also - since a lot of restaurants insist that both my husband and I have the tasting menu if one of us wants it - my husband and I have to agree that the tasting menu is to our liking (very unlikely - since we tend to like different things).

No. That's not it at all. Check out the The French Laundry Cookbook, p.14, on the law of diminishing returns. Essentially, Keller wants the shock of delight from that first taste of a dish to be the only thing the diner experiences. So he serves lots of small courses rather than a few larger ones.This sort of thing is why Bruni's article is especially wrongheaded. If one were to take it to its logical conclusion, he'd basically be saying that a chef shouldn't have any leeway to exercise control over the final product placed before the diner. That point isn't even incorrect or objectionable; it's just nonsensical. ← Frankly - Keller's courses on his non-tasting menus aren't large. They're actually pretty small (maybe 3 bites instead of 1). My main was 1 small duck breast - and that was served for 2 people. So I got maybe 3 small slices. I managed to get through the entire menu I had - and the throwaways - and a bunch of bread - and left without filling the slightest bit full. Which is unusual for me. Now I am not saying that I need a half plate of something to savor it - but if something is really really good - like a soup - well a half shot glass isn't enough to savor it and enjoy its goodness. Also - a lot of Keller's food is reasonably complex. How can you appreciate a complex dish in a single mini-bite? And - when you're serving all that one bite stuff - you simply rule out a lot of dishes. How can you serve a single bite sea urchin? And means of preparation. How do you serve a single bite duck breast or fish or rabbit - or pork - or beef - unless you slice everything up into teeny tiny pieces and put them in sous vide bags ahead of dinner time? Does this spell the end of crispy skin? And things cooked on the bone? I once read a review of an expensive restaurant in London - and the reviewer concluded that it was ideal for old people without teeth. So is that what this is all about - the end of texture? Robyn

What is EMP? Funny about Babbo. I never even noticed the music. Guess it agreed with me. I did notice that everything we had - except for the pasta (which was excellent) - was mediocre. I can't believe that the attitude of a lot of diners (which you seem to think is bad - and I agree) won't affect a fair number of restaurants. Assuming a restaurant caters to it. I always thought the role of a great restaurant was to treat me to a great dining experience - which in turn would teach me about food. It's a matter of the restaurant "bringing me up" - as opposed to me bringing the restaurant down. I guess it remains to be seen how various restaurants respond to changes in their clientele. Robyn

Beef with blue cheese - sweet? Do you think so? How does it tie in (keeping in mind that it's the main)? Robyn P.S. to Rebecca from New Jersey. Pork with a coca cola based sauce (baste or whatever) is a pretty common thing here in the south (one reason is because Atlanta - Coke's home - is the 8th largest metro area in the US). Good but common. And generally a main. Generally served with something savory to make an interesting menu (you could serve it with sweet potatoes and marshmallow - or something like that - but that would drive most people into a sugar coma ).

How do you think eliminating the choice in the Per Se menu will affect the restaurant's bottom line? Also - do you think it's possible that the average diner in a place like Per Se these days is someone who doesn't know enough about dining to choose courses? Like the people sitting next to us this weekend. They had never heard of *any* cheeses on the cheese course (and I can assure you - the choices weren't all that exotic - except for the cheese from Thomasville Georgia ). Perhaps when he is saying that he is switching to only a tasting menu - he means that these days - his average client can't be trusted to pick a menu (which I find entirely plausible). FWIW - I didn't have the tasting menu at Per Se - and I really liked the food (had some other issues - but not with the food). Robyn

Fat Guy - I think Per Se is alarming enough. If Keller - arguably the most famous chef in the US - does something - I think others will follow. Note that for a lot of people - like the younger couple from Charlotte who dined next to us one night in Atlanta - well Per Se was their #1 destination when they went to New York last year. I suspect that is the case for a lot of younger people. We were about their age when we first started "fine dining" - and I think that if you start out your "learning" in a certain way - that will influence you greatly in later years. Look at students who start learning mathematics by learning "whole math". I think the important thing isn't simply a few restaurants in New York that won't be around 20 years from now. It's educating a generation of diners. The only reason some people want to do as many things as possible in an evening is because their fine dining experience is a once in a lifetime or every 5 years kind of thing. Is that what you want? Fine dining restaurants that cater to "one timers"? On my part - I probably don't get to a lot of these restaurants more than once in my lifetime (although I do get to a fair number of them). I am content to leave with "less than everything" - if for no other reason than I can't eat a ton of rich food without throwing up. Everything - even the best - in moderation. I think that's a good way to go through life. Keeps you coming back for more. The tasting menu if served exclusively at a restaurant is a money and time and labor saver. Certainly you won't dispute that. As for signature dishes - of the restaurants and dishes you mention - I've only eaten at 3 - but I just have menus for 1 - Per Se. Oysters and Pearls was only on the tasting menu - and mac and cheese wasn't on the menu at all. I don't recall any of the dishes you mentioned for JG and Nobu - but my meals at those places were 5+ years ago. A signature dish that isn't on the menu all the time (assuming it's in season) at a "destination restaurant" isn't a signature dish in my opinion. Finally - with regard to Japanese "menus" - e.g., Masa. I haven't been to Masa - but if it is a traditional Japanese sushi/sashimi restaurant - which I think it is - well you go to a restaurant like that to eat seafood (mostly fish but some non-fish seafood things). And you leave it in the chef's hands to offer you what he thinks is seasonal and best and fresh that day (because that's what he got at the market in the morning). That's just the nature of the restaurant. A very limited range of offerings. You'd never go to a restaurant like that if you had a fish/seafood allergy or didn't like fish/seafood or didn't trust the chef to pick out what was best that day at the market. Robyn P.S. I guess the other "no-choice" restaurant is Alinea. No choice - eat 'til you're stuffed kind of place. Since - what was it - Gourmet Magazine - ranked it the #1 restaurant in the US - I don't think the trend of "no choice" - "eat like a pig" can be dismissed so easily. And I'm choosing my words when I say "eat like a pig". I don't want my dining choices being dictated by younger people with poor dining habits who weigh more than 200 or 300 pounds because they eat a lot of junk 364 days a year and at a fine dining restaurant once a year.

To make red velvet cake red - you need to use food coloring. That's just the way it is <shrug>. Robyn

Each of those dishes sounds interesting (didn't taste them so I can't comment on the taste). But if I had my druthers - the menu would be a little more "themed". Like pork with coca cola is very southern. Lemongrass anything isn't. Peanut butter and jelly goes with southern (and some other things) - not with lemongrass. I'd try to develop menus - well - like I said - based on a cohesive theme for the evening. Like I make wonderful lima beans - and I make wonderful pesto - but I'm not going to serve them at the same meal. Robyn

Robert - An added note about wine. I can't drink wine - but my husband does. He usually does wine pairings. He did two this trip. In the $30-40 dollar range. And they were both excellent (the hotel restaurant even had a full class of Vueve in its pairing with the amuse). But too much wine - as he found out to his dismay the next mornings! I spent some time talking with a food/beverage manager at the Four Seasons. She buys wine for the hotel. She confirmed what just about everyone knows these days. That unless you're talking about really big old bottles (or really big newer bottles - many of which aren't fit for drinking yet) - there is a glut of grapes/wine on the market these days. Prices are plunging - and quality is soaring. So it is inexcusable for a bar/restaurant not to offer fairly high quality drinkable younger wines at reasonable prices. Robyn

Robert - I agree with everything you said. If I can add.... I know there are lots of areas where I am "old" or "old fashioned" - and I think it's appropriate to live with them. E.g., we went to the Honda Battle of the (historically Black college marching) Bands in Atlanta this weekend. Between bands - they had a couple of DJs doing a battle of "old" and "new" music. Needless to say - the oldest of the old was just a little newer than the music I really like. No big deal. Each generation has its own music - and hates the music of the generations that come after it. But with restaurant food - there are certain basic things. First is that it's a service industry. The restaurant is there to serve you - not the reverse. Now we may not like certain foods or cuisines - or styles of cooking - but that's how we decide which places to go to. Once we go to places we should like - we shouldn't have them dictating to us what we *must* like. Just as an aside - I'll note that there are several problems with the "tasting menu only" format. The first is that if it's a total formula - the "chef's greatest hits" - it can last - but it will get stale if the restaurant lasts for a while. Who will want to go again and again if they always get the same meal? The second is that it doesn't leave room for or encourage experimentation. If you have a 10 course "hit" tasting menu - what happens when the visitor comes 1000 miles and gets a couple of new dishes that are total clunkers (which can happen). Of course - this could happen in a non-tasting menu - but at least the diner will have a choice. And - on more than one occasion - I've had a chef offer us a small sample of a dish he's working on - just to give our impressions in the middle of an otherwise terrific meal. Sometimes we are thumbs up - sometimes not. Anyway - I am beginning to think that New York simply isn't that much fun to dine in these days. Too full of itself. We were pleasantly surprised by Atlanta this trip. We go a couple of times of year (it's a 5 hour drive) - and try different things. There is a big deal emphasis in Atlanta these days on the "slow food movement". There's a new magazine - Edible Atlanta (Celebrating the Bounty of Local Foods, Season by Season). And even artisan cheeses from Thomasville (Georgia). The chefs aren't as talented as the best in the world. Nor are the ingredients the best in the world. And the customers' incomes are modest by world standards (which is why a four course menu at one of the best restaurants in town costs $72). But it's enjoyable having very good meals prepared by people who are trying to - quite literally - cook up new things. Without a lot of attitude. I can only imagine what New York would be like given its talent and access to big spending customers if it brought the same attitude to bear on the dining experience. Robyn

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Sometimes it's fun to go into a great restaurant and say to the chef, "I'm in your hands." Other times, I like to have a list of options and choose for myself. It's not as if one is bad, and the other good. While restaurants do say that, I have yet to be cancelled out because I didn't call. Even when they say that, if I forget to call, usually they'll call me. ← I like to have options too - but the point of Bruni's article was that you're getting fewer of them. I was really surprised about the mandatory tasting menu at Per Se. And I don't think I'd go to any restaurant that had a mandatory tasting menu (sure the chef will prepare "alternate" dishes for me - but I don't care to share my medical problems with a bunch of strangers). I just got back from Atlanta - and the notion of "no choice" apparently hasn't hit there yet. We dined at one really good restaurant where there are only 4 course meals - and you have multiple choices in each category. At the restaurant in the hotel (which can afford to subsidize more choices) - there was a choice of 3 or choice of 4 menu - as well as a tasting menu - as well as a totally a la carte menu (and a separate "light" menu in the bar). Anyway - I don't know why the concept of choice seems to be disappearing. If a chef has a signature dish (or more than one) - or something I really like - I don't necessarily want it to be buried in the middle of a 20 course meal. Robyn

I wasn't aware of the controversy before I read the thread you mentioned - but - after you did - I wasn't surprised he didn't mention it. Because it was a little OT to the article. I find that - increasingly - I am requested to give a credit card number when I make a reservation at a high end restaurant - and that there are penalties for cancelling the reservation less than 24 hours before my seating (I suspect I might be excused from the penalty if I had a heart attack - but - luckily - that circumstance hasn't arisen). I think that this is basically a self-correcting problem (if it's a problem at all). If seats aren't filled because of "scalpers" taking reservations - and then not reselling them - then more restaurants will require credit cards and have cancellation penalties. One way to get around the problem of stupid seating hours is to pay the extra cost for a single-seating restaurant. There aren't/weren't many in NY (only ADNY comes to mind) - but they exist worldwide - and - like I said - they are worth the extra cost IMO. Robyn

Not every place in New York is like those described in the article (and there are places outside New York that are). So it's simply an issue of deciding where you want to go when you travel - what you want to do - and how you want to dine. There are plenty of options worldwide. Robyn

I always like to call and confirm. Once I made a reservation on Opentable out of town - and - when I called to confirm a few days in advance - I found out the restaurant had closed! Had to scramble to rearrange our plans. I am with you on the prix fixe menu. Even in its most minimal form. The best restaurant in our area (IMO) - which is rather small in a relatively small town - has a 5 course menu. Choice of 2 on everything except the mains - where it's a choice of 3. A larger restaurant in a larger city might give you 4 or 5 choices in each category. If I have traveled 1000 - or 2000 - or 13000 miles to dine at a great restaurant - and the chef's main for the night is pork - and I don't like or can't eat pork - why should I be forced to eat pork? And I don't think that the 20 course tasting menu is a substitute. I can never remember more than about 5 courses. Or eat more than 8 or 9 no matter how small they are (if the sauces and the bread are any good - I'll have consumed a lot of "sopping bread" by then). Even heartier eaters than I (mostly larger younger guys here) wind up saying that can't touch dessert after 20 courses. They're stuffed. And since I'm a dessert lover - I always like to be able to do justice to dessert. There are certain things I love to eat. Certain things my husband loves to eat. And they are all different. We would prefer to have the things we love to eat - assuming they are things a chef cooks - as opposed to those the chef picks for us on any given night. That way we give the chef his best shot at making us love his food (I don't care how great the chef's pork dish is - it will never be my favorite anything - whereas it might be my husband's favorite). Robyn

Come now, is it really that difficult to make a reservation in the Open Table era? Even when calling, I have never had to do more than write down a # and time to confirm. I will say that opening the reservation book only thirty to sixty days in advance is a major pain in the ass, especially for travelers. ← When I travel outside the US - and sometimes in the US - I find that restaurants will frequently take your reservation earlier than they state on their websites - particularly if you are dining at a non-peak time (lunch) or on a non-peak day (which can be a weekday or weekend day depending on where you're going). I usually call the restaurant directly (easy to do with London) - or ask the hotel concierge to do it for me (since it's hard to do in Japan when your Japanese is almost non-existent). I find that - for all except the newest and hottest restaurants - that most of the people you deal with are pretty nice and willing to try to accommodate you if you're traveling a long way to dine with them. Robyn

First off - I have to take back what I said about Frank Bruni. I fell in love with him after reading his piece in today's NYT (I wrote about it in the thread about that article). But he doesn't have to worry about me - I'm happily married . And I like the way he reconciled his mainly positive perceptions of the food he had eaten at some places with his mainly negative reactions to some restaurant practices. Because I've had the same conflicts at times. I can see why he would be taken aback by GR's 2 hour limit. RHR has the same limit. When I read that on the web site - I opted to eat lunch there instead of dinner. But most people can't take the time to have a 3 hour lunch on a business day. I agree with Oakapple that one can't compare RHR with the London without eating at both. For example - there was a dessert on the menu at the London which sounded similar to one I had at RHR (which happens to be maybe the best dessert I've had in the last 5 years). But I don't know if they're the same (equally complex and equally good). I posted another message in this thread asking if anyone had tried that dessert - but didn't get any responses. So - it would be nice to hear from someone who has dined at both places. As for restaurant types - what Leonard Kim posted was interesting - but I don't think New American narrows it down enough. That could be everything from a creative short ribs dish to fish in lemongrass broth if you're talking about NY restaurants. I think you need categories that are smaller - like California cuisine - Floribbean - Southern. Maybe French/Asian would cover places like JG and LB? And I'd never use the word "new" or "contemporary". I mean - what high end white tablecloth restaurant serves old fashioned food these days - except maybe La Grenouille . I took a look at the menu and it really is old fashioned - perhaps we should call that kind of food "classical" French. And is there anything other than classical Italian or classical Chinese? I know there is supposed to be both classical and "new" Japanese - but when I ate at a "new" Japanese fusion restaurant in Japan - the only evidence of fusion I saw was a single lonely slice of French bread. Anyway - I hope you guys have a nice weekend. We are heading off to Atlanta to see the Honda Battle of the Bands (think Drumline) and have (hopefully) some good meals in the largest city in the south. Robyn

Plant some of these. You can buy them in small pots at HD or Lowe's for about 89 cents - and they will be full size in no time. Even in north Florida - I just prune mine down to the ground every spring (to get rid of the cold damage) - and they're up and going by early summer. They are *very* attractive to bees (mine are loaded with bees every day of the year when it's not too cold for bees to fly). Butterflies too. Robyn

How about not being able to get a drink at the bar? If you are a lucky soul like me with a 5:00 (or maybe it was 5:30) first seating at Per Se - those giant restaurant doors are locked and do not open until 5:00 - when the flock of well-dressed diners assembled outside the giant doors are herded in and seated. If you happen to show up 15 minutes early - too bad if you'd like to sit down and order a drink in the bar while you're waiting. Robyn