robyn

Our definitions are almost exactly the same. You're talking about places in *Miami* for people who happen to visit or live in *Miami*. What's your definition of "out of the way" - doesn't seem to be further than 5 or 10 miles from where you live or happen to be staying (even I'm willing to travel more than that). I realize that the traffic in Miami is bad - but it isn't *that* bad all the time. Robyn

Thousands - tens of thousands. When's the last time you went to one that you enjoyed? We have the Isle of Eight Flags Shrimp Festival at Amelia Island. It is a total zoo - horrible (unless your tastes run to cut off tshirts and lots of beer). Enough to give our otherwise wonderful shrimp a bad name. Whenever I hear the phrase "food festival" - it's enough to make me run in the other direction. Some street festivals - like the fall arts festival in Gainesville - are a lot more civilized (and you can get great smoked turkey legs there). Robyn

What part of Florida? It's a big state. And we travel around the state a fair amount (although we haven't been west of Tallahassee or south of Miami for over 5 years). I've written up most of the places I've liked over the years here in other threads. We live a little south of Jacksonville these days - and Opus 39 (St. Augustine) is hands down the best in terms of fine dining in this neck of the woods (and better than most places in the state). There are other pretty good places here (bb's and Bistro Aix and Biscotti's in Jacksonville - Eleven South in Jax Beach - Restaurant Medure in Ponte Vedra come to mind). But I eat at Golden Corral too (like to eat vegetarian out a few times a week - and it has lots of good veggies). Also some ethnic restaurants (with Red Chilies - Jax finally has good Indian food). Like some chains. Stonewood Grill (for excellent grilled trout) - and Maggione's (for a simple pasta lunch). We used to eat in south Florida more in the past than we will in the future. We lived in Miami for over 20 years - and continued to visit my parents in north Broward until my mom died - and my father moved here last year. Boca (near where my parents lived) was always kind of a wasteland - and difficult dining (due to the demands of elderly parents) - but my favorites were Legal Seafoods (really good chain fish house - I always like a good fresh grilled fish) and Big City Tavern (just ok food - but great martinis - necessary for visiting parents ). Have enjoyed some places in Palm Beach. Cafe Boulud. L'Escalier (have read some negative reviews about it recently though). In Miami (our accountant's still there - so we visit) - Casa Tua is one favorite that is still there. Think the chef at the Ritz Carlton in Coconut Grove (he makes a mean rabbit canneloni) is still there. Other places we liked (like Mosaico) have lost their chefs (the chef from Mosaico is now at the Ritz Carlton at Amelia Island) - or are gone altogether. I frequently like to eat breakfast for lunch - and won't pass up a Waffle House or Village Inn when I'm in that mood. Nothing in the Sarasota area was memorable (although I recall a nice open air bar with a pretty view). Orlando is pretty much a wasteland except for a Japanese restaurant (Ran Getsu) we dined at last year. Dixie Crossroads in Titusville is always worth a stop. I'm pretty much rambling. We eat all kinds of food at all kinds of places. All over Florida - the US - and other parts of the world when we travel. And we eat out a lot (our restaurant bills are second in our budget - medical expenses are the only thing that's higher). Any specific information you're looking for? Robyn

Blais is gone - back in Atlanta - doing some catering (how long did he last - 6 months?). I think Van Aken is probably over the hill. At least with Norman's. I have not heard anything about his place at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando that makes me want to dine there. Quite frankly - I cannot recommend a single city in Florida as a dining destination. Although there are reasons to go to lots of locations in the state - everything from golf to diving to kayaking to art - and decent places to eat once you get here. Robyn

The main problem with eating in Florida has nothing to do with the size of the state - or the different areas of the state. California is larger - has just as many regions - and has better food - especially in the north. You can eat at random places in north California - and a bad meal is very much the exception. The primary problems as I see them are (and they are not unique to Florida - the same problems exist in lots of other places as well): 1) A lot of people don't have enough money to eat well. You may think of this as a central and north Florida problem - but a lot of our favorite hole in the wall restaurants in Miami went under when we got the lottery. The $50 a week people were spending on food on Calle Ocho went to lottery tickets instead. 2) A lot of our non-chain restaurants are terrible. I don't care if you're talking about Miami or Jacksonville or Pensacola - it is hard to find a mid-priced chef-owned Italian restaurant that is better than Maggione's. So if people don't have a lot of money for dining to start with - are they going to take a chance on spending $50 to get something awful - or are they going to go with the dependable chain product? 3) A lot of younger people (having grown up on fast food) don't know good food from bad food. A lot of older people eat like they're in nursing homes (even if they aren't). When my folks lived in Broward County - they had a favorite Chinese restaurant. We spoke with the owner. He started out by using good ingredients - like real black mushrooms. Older people would pick them out of the dishes and not eat them. So he stopped serving black mushrooms and used celery instead. Some people who do know good food from bad food don't care (they're more interested in the scene - 3/4 of the restaurants on South Beach wouldn't be there if people cared whether the food was good). 4) The tourists we tend to attract are generally lower income or ignorant about food - or they don't care about food. Or they travel with kids (Orlando is a huge metro area based in large part on travel with kids) - which means that even if they want better - they will usually wind up at McDonalds - or a place that serves food like McDonalds - fried chicken chunks - stuff like that). Ditto - double ditto (except for the kids part) - for any area that is a retirement area. If I were king of Florida - I'd abolish manufactured housing retirement communities. No reason to fill up the state with them - and the people who tend to buy them. 5) A lot of our "domestic" ethnic cuisines are undistinguished. E.g., there are some Cuban dishes I like - but Cuban food is in general undistinguished compared to cuisines like French, Chinese, Indian, Italian, etc. We were going great guns 20 years ago when our brightest chefs were developing original Florida food based on local ethnic influences and local ingredients - think Doug Rodriguez at YUCA - but things have been stalled for well over a decade. I've had better new southern food in Charleston than Florida (with a couple of exceptions) - and the best new southern meal I've had recently was at a new restaurant in San Jose California. I'm sure there are other things I could list. Overall though - the food scene is very discouraging. Robyn P.S. Then there is the fickle nature of the Florida diner. I wanted to eat at La Broche - but it opened and closed in less than six months. I got to Mosaico - but the head chef left about a month later. Two places I liked at Merrick Place opened and closed faster than I could write about them. Etc.

Don't be sorry! I thought of New York first, and California was down on my list. We've got DC beat, but only in my limited experience. Illinois never crossed my mind. I think we have a fair footing with Vegas. But fair warning, and I can pull my camera out and document, the New York, New Jersey, Canadian, Ohian, Maine, Pennsylvanian and there was one from North Dakota today - liscense plates are in full bloom. That's how we tell when the seasons change in South Florida. Somebody is coming here in search of something. ← There is no place in Florida that has food equal to what you'll find in Chicago or Las Vegas - much less California. Like I said - someone is confusing the hunt for warm weather with food tourism. FWIW - all those out of state license plates don't mean doodle. You'll find tons in Fort Myers - and it isn't exactly on anyone's food radar screen. Robyn ← Well I don't know about radar screens, but I had a pretty good meal at Prawnbroker in Ft. Myers. Those out of state license plates mean no state income tax. ← Well I've had pretty good meals in a lot of unlikely places. Had excellent fried chicken and the fixings in White Springs (FL) a few weeks ago. But I wouldn't call White Springs a food destination (although it is a destination for other activities - and on the way to Atlanta). The lack of a state income tax has nothing to do (historically) with tourists. Way back when - states in the middle of nowhere - like Texas and Florida - states that were basically uninhabitable before air conditioning was invented - had to come up with all kinds of incentives to get people to move there. So they didn't impose much in the way of taxes (like income taxes) - and they encouraged people who were considered deadbeats to move there by legislating large homestead exemptions. Florida remains a deadbeats' paradise to this day (every time something blows up in the financial markets - the prices of our multimillion dollar homes go up as people seek to bury their ill-gotten gains in their "homesteads"). Robyn

Well I will eat my words if Bernstein is there at Michy's 5 years from now. Or make it 4 (Miami is fickle). OK? And you can eat your words if she's gone. I do hope she has decent backers - the kind who understand that backing a restaurant really isn't a way to make terrific money. The kind who basically back restaurants the way some people like to back shows. For the love of it. A hole in the wall joint is by definition not worth a journey. I'd recommend the Georgia Pig to anyone as having one of the best pulled pork sandwiches in the south - but I don't think anyone should travel from Miami - or even Jacksonville - to eat one. If you're in the neighborhood - that's a different story. What's the longest distance you have ever traveled specifically to eat at one hole in the wall joint (as opposed to eating at one when you're in the area for other reasons)? Miami to Homestead is about as far as I'd go - and only if the traffic wasn't bad that day. Robyn

Every place in the world has hole-in-the-wall joints. Some worth a dinner - none worth a journey. FWIW - just about every Chinese buffet in Jacksonville serves bubble teas. Used to be a novelty maybe 5 years ago. Isn't anymore. Robyn

Don't be sorry! I thought of New York first, and California was down on my list. We've got DC beat, but only in my limited experience. Illinois never crossed my mind. I think we have a fair footing with Vegas. But fair warning, and I can pull my camera out and document, the New York, New Jersey, Canadian, Ohian, Maine, Pennsylvanian and there was one from North Dakota today - liscense plates are in full bloom. That's how we tell when the seasons change in South Florida. Somebody is coming here in search of something. ← There is no place in Florida that has food equal to what you'll find in Chicago or Las Vegas - much less California. Like I said - someone is confusing the hunt for warm weather with food tourism. FWIW - all those out of state license plates don't mean doodle. You'll find tons in Fort Myers - and it isn't exactly on anyone's food radar screen. Robyn ← "...no place..." is a bit of an exaggeration. Without a doubt, North One10, Talula, Michy's, and a coupla seafood places (River Oyster Bar comes to mind) are of the first magnitude. However, the problem is all the hype-that's what drives the tourist dollars-directed towards South Beach. ← Michelle Bernstein is a good example of what's wrong with Miami. How long was she at Azul (which I found to be a competent but not very interesting place)? A couple of years at best? Then she disappears - and reappears at Michy's - which I predict won't be around 2 years from now. Reminds me a bit of Norman Van Aken's early career - here today - gone tomorrow - and then back again. Only to disappear in short order. You can't run a first class restaurant if you're in a different one every year or so. Robyn

They look beautiful! But can someone explain to me how Fla berries are $1.99 / lb in New Jersey? I suspect that the berries in those pix are significantly riper & tastier than what we're seeing in NJ right now - I haven't seen berries that ripe, judging by appearance, in a couple of months - so maybe both are priced fairly for what they are. ← If you're getting Plant City strawberries - you're getting the same stuff we get. The price difference is mostly a factor of whether a particular store wants to push something as a loss leader (or you can get tons of the stuff really cheap in a place like Costco). Robyn

Don't be sorry! I thought of New York first, and California was down on my list. We've got DC beat, but only in my limited experience. Illinois never crossed my mind. I think we have a fair footing with Vegas. But fair warning, and I can pull my camera out and document, the New York, New Jersey, Canadian, Ohian, Maine, Pennsylvanian and there was one from North Dakota today - liscense plates are in full bloom. That's how we tell when the seasons change in South Florida. Somebody is coming here in search of something. ← There is no place in Florida that has food equal to what you'll find in Chicago or Las Vegas - much less California. Like I said - someone is confusing the hunt for warm weather with food tourism. FWIW - all those out of state license plates don't mean doodle. You'll find tons in Fort Myers - and it isn't exactly on anyone's food radar screen. Robyn

Well, there's Mark's las Olas, Primavera, Cap's Place, Tropical Chinese, Christene Lee's, Food Amongst the Flowers, Geronimo's, Pangea, Revolution, Rosies, Southern Comfort, etc., etc. What kind of food do you want to eat? If you really want to drive, we can talk Dade, Palm Beach, or Monroe Counties. Cuban, Carribbean, South American. I keep hearing exciting things about your area around JAX/St. Augustine (but haven't been that way in almost two years), and the recent pictures from a vacation somebody took in Destin gives me faith that the gulf is OK after the storms. We load up and drive to the Keys to eat dinner from time to time. Just to get away. ← Doc John is right. I like Florida (I've lived here for over 35 years - both south and north Florida) - and there's a lot to like about living here. But as a food destination it is definitely second or third rate (for the most part - see exceptions below). There's not a county in the state I haven't been to over the years - whether for business or pleasure - and the reason for the trip is always something other than eating. In fact - there are trips I'll avoid (like a shopping trip to Orlando) - simply because the eating is lousy. The restaurants you mention range from old hat (Mark's on Las Olas is mediocre in my opinion - and it isn't even trendy like the old Mark's on 135th Street in Miami 20 years ago) - to kitschy (Cap's is kind of interesting simply because it's in Pompano but the boat road makes it seem like it's in the Everglades - OTOH - the food is totally mediocre or worse). Perhaps they are ok if you're in the neighborhood - but I'd never drive to Mark's or Cap's for the more than 10 minutes I mentioned above. I really don't know what happened to south Florida. The food scene was so promising 20 years ago - so much was new and fresh. Now it is stale. And the execution and service are generally mediocre - if not downright poor. As for north Florida - we do have some edible to quite good food these days. But would I come here (in general) for the food? No way. The area where I live has world class golf - but certainly not world class food. I'd come here for the golf - and hope to have a few pretty good meals. There are a few exceptions. North Florida is a good place for serious BBQ trekkies. The best rock shrimp in the world is in Titusville. Etc. But - in general - you're talking about places that are worth a stop if you're in the neighborhood. Not a detour - much less a destination journey. I think the article you mentioned confuses tourism in general (of which we have a lot) with food tourism. I doubt there is a single tourist in Orlando who is there because of the food. Robyn

Lightweight!... Not quite. But I hope to stay on this side of the doublewide dress aisle for quite a few years. Robyn

Do early bird specials count as food related travel ? I really can't think of a single place in Broward County (or many other counties) that I'd travel more than 10 minutes to dine at. Robyn

Yes - they're in Publix - frequently BOGO. They've been pretty good the last few weeks. Robyn

We had lunch at RHR - started at noon - and were there until almost 2:30. I don't think I'd be able to stomach the sight of food again at 3:30. Robyn

We have investigative restaurant reporters where I live. They probably exist in lots of other places too. They're mostly TV guys (and girls). They're the ones who go to restaurants to find dirt and filth - the restaurants who serve snapper and call it grouper - the places that serve large numbers of underage drinkers. They find underpaid workers - and illegal workers. Stuff like that. Reckon you might have a few in New York - and have seen some of their work. Robyn

If you are flying from New York to Tokyo - you will have a hard time staying up past 7 pm or so (13 hours of time zones is hard to deal with). So plan on a very early dinner! Robyn

Is - or was? Barbara Walters used to do serious interviews. When was the last time you saw one of those? I'm not necessarily faulting the reporters. They need to make a living. Perhaps it's just a sign of the times. You adapt to the new media imperatives - or you become a dinosaur. Robyn

So you're saying that the role of a restaurant reviewer is to give you some vicarious thrills - as opposed to delivering information to people who might actually be interested in eating in a restaurant? Do you read newspaper reviews of restaurants in cities other than New York that you'll never visit? Robyn

I agree. If I don't have a good time eating - a restaurant is a failure in my opinion. Have any of you dined at a restaurant on the basis of a Bruni review and been entertained - had a good time? It's funny. I haven't been in NY for a few years - but we had the most fun at DB&D last time. Read about it in a review from who knows where - and the review said it had a limo outside where you could have a cigarette when it was cold. Sounded like fun to me - so I went. It was fun - and the food (at least then) was really good to boot. So have you ever found a place you liked this much on the basis of a Bruni review? Robyn

You're being kind. Other papers have moved into the 21st Century quite comfortably by using the internet to its advantage. ← Actually - that is not true. The only newspaper that has been ok on the internet is the WSJ. People will actually pay for it. Otherwise - many/most newspapers have been in deep s*** in the 21st century due to several factors. One is the internet. And the migration of classified ads to the internet. But another - and perhaps the most important - is that whereas the average US adult used to read (or at least buy) a daily newspaper - most don't these days. The demographics for newspapers are awful - almost worse than those for Buicks. The only thing that will save newspapers is this new idea that billionaires will buy them up as "vanity ownings". What's more important than having $5 billion? Having $5 billion and telling people what you think about everything. We'll see what Geffen et al do with the LA Times. If there's a buyout - it may be the start of a trend. Of course - there's a downside. People like Hank Greenberg (AIG) and others are interested in buying major media because they're PO'd about what the media has written about them. Robyn

I mentioned this insert a little up thread. Did you get it in New York or elsewhere (I got it in the Florida edition)? It's hard for people who read the on-line edition to get the flavor of the insert. I thought it was stupid. Especially stupid with regard to Bruni since it's easy to get a picture of his face on line. I'll note that one thing that keeps me a NYT subscriber is its business content and staff (been friends with some of the reporters for a long time - and a source for some of them - although most of those people are retired now). Thank goodness the business section hasn't deteriorated as much intellectually as some other sections. Or perhaps no one has decided to make it into a clone of "Money Magazine" yet. BTW - I am a sometimes fan of sophmoric humor. But Dave Barry does it a lot better than Frank Bruni IMO. Global warming reporting is an interesting topic. I'm not sure that any mainstream media does a decent job of reporting what's happening and being discussed in the scientific community. Too much political baggage in most articles (on both sides). Once in a while - I'll spend a few hours in the evening reading scientific reports - meeting reports - etc. Most of it is over my head - but I think I manage to get a better idea of the contours of the controversy. Robyn

Have you ever eaten Alain Senderen's food? I have - both at L'Archestrate and Lucas Carton. And you don't get the sense that he thinks "it's only grub" when you taste his cooking. What's the context of this quote - and where did it come from (perhaps his decision to go from a fine dining restaurant with 3 Michelin stars to a wonderful restaurant with lower prices - less rigorous service standards - and only 2 stars)? Robyn

It's because I'm more interested in restaurants - and good ones at that - than the fact that Bruni is gay - or aspires to be part of an "inside NY social scene" - or anything else about him - as opposed to good restaurants. But I guess the NYT said it better than I could in today's advertising section for itself: "[Frank Bruni] doesn't think of himself as a restaurant reviewer...he's an investigative restaurant reporter." Maybe for his next round of articles he can report on rats and salmonella. Robyn