jamiemaw

What is the cost (at a typical retail market) of wild versus farmed product right now in Montreal?

It sure does help, OG. Many thanks for all the tips. Jamie

Three intimate rectangles, each approximately 1.4 x 1 wide (length times width), the perfect human-scaled dimension for--intimacy and comfort. Their muted but warm decor helps. And joy.

rêvasser, Ive often daydreamed about the same thing myself. If I was forced to use only one word to sum up the want to return to a certain restaurant, I would call it a sense of 'intimacy'--in all its meanings. Here are some more detailed thoughts.

Anybody had any decent food experiences with cruise ship dining? I’ve noticed Michel Roux supervising Celebrity Cruise Lines, sushi bars on Crystal, ‘anytime dining’ on many other lines, and a ton of celebrity chefs and winemakers aboard special ‘gourmet’ voyages. So maybe it's time to update. Have any of you partaken?

Take a few minutes and study these threads--you may well find the facts illuminating, especially at the tail of the latter thread: Our Endangered Coastal Fishery -- Is it already too late? Wild Salmon, you say? Lies! Lies! Lies!

The Vancouver Sun today came out guns a-blazin' in a very strong editiorial attacking federal Fisheries minister Geoff Regan for his government's inaction on DFO's mismanagement of the Fraser River fishery. The editorial was in response to BC Supreme Court Chief Justice Bryan Williams' report on the fishery, published March 31. VANCOUVER SUN EDITORIAL It seems nothing short of a scandal. Or perhaps the federal Libs simply have bigger fish to fry these days.

BEFORE Imagine how the first guy to eat one felt. Especially because, in order to get at the good stuff he was likely caught between a rock and a hard place. AFTER See, some quality Kumamotos can have that effect. So congratulations on your persistence--most would have given up forever. What you have now discovered is that oysters are simply sex incarnate. And that's all ye need to know.

I'm afraid that this is this math (which has been discussed upthread) is exactly what levers the market to the fish farmers' advantage. This is especially true in the large eastern urban markets where 'wild' (presuming you can verify it is) salmon costs a lot more. This is a case of 'out of sight, out of mind' for many consumers. Far removed from the fish farms that despoil coastal waterways, they see only the cute, dimension-cut filets that often visually replicate wild product. Similarly enough, it seems, to fool a lot of restaurateurs and home cooks and perhaps even wholesalers and retailers. So consumers of conscience may actually have to admire Pan's protocol: That is, if consumers cannot afford wild salmon, perhaps they must be convinced to stop buying salmon at all. In the short-term that would likely drive prices down, which would not help the wild fishery. Over the longer term, it might force governments and the consumer to more closely evaluate the cost of long-term environmental and ecological injury versus the cost of dinner. On this coast, that dinner decision is much easier. FAS (frozen at sea) wild product is available year-round and, properly managed, is of very high quality and costs just slightly more than farmed product. Those costs are discussed in Post # 17, upthread. One thing undiscussed on this thread thus far is why wild Atlantic salmon is no longer widely commercially available. It's a matter of taste. For instance, some consumers prefer fattier sockeye and spring salmon. Those are fattiest early in the season (May-June) when they have been storing fat at sea in preparation for their river runs to breed and lay eggs. Others prefer leaner coho (very short supply; we catch and release) and pinks, or sockeye and spring taken later in the summer.

I'm afraid that this is this math (which has been discussed upthread) is exactly what levers the market to the fish farmers' advantage. This is especially true in the large eastern urban markets where 'wild' (presuming you can verify it is) salmon costs a lot more. This is a case of 'out of sight, out of mind' for many consumers. Far removed from the fish farms that despoil coastal waterways, they see only the cute, dimension-cut filets that often visually replicate wild product. Similarly enough, it seems, to fool a lot of restaurateurs and home cooks and perhaps even wholesalers and retailers. So consumers of conscience may actually have to admire Pan's protocol: That is, if consumers cannot afford wild salmon, perhaps they must be convinced to stop buying salmon at all. In the short-term that would likely drive prices down, which would not help the wild fishery. Over the longer term, it might force governments and the consumer to more closely evaluate the cost of long-term environmental and ecological injury versus the cost of dinner. On this coast, that dinner decision is much easier. FAS (frozen at sea) wild product is available year-round and, properly managed, is of very high quality and costs just slightly more than farmed product. Those costs are discussed in Post # 17, upthread. One thing undiscussed on this thread thus far is why wild Atlantic salmon is no longer commercially available. Jamie

Here is the link to the discussion currently going on in the Vancouver/Western Canada forum about sustainability issues and salmon endangerment.

Very much looking forward to welcoming David and his brigade to David Hawksworth's West Restaurant in Vancouver tomorrow evening.

I have only had goat stewed. I was wondering if it is tougher than than a lamb leg. It sounds like it is if you are recommending braising it. ← Yes, but it's really the same effect. Marinate (bottle red wine, vegetables and herbs). Dry leg thoroughtly, brown on all sides, remove from pan. Use marinade wine to deglaze pan, replace leg, add back bouquet garni vegetables and herbs, now including cinammon, plus 1.5 cups chicken stock. Cover pan tightly. Braise in oven at 325 degrees for two and a half hours. Take a peek and see how it reacts to a fork-- it may require another hour. Remove leg to platter. Defat cooking liquid and reduce to three cups. Strain and thicken if necessary. Serve with cous cous, herbed rice or flat noodles and spring vegetables such as asparagus and young carrots. Jamie

Brown and braise. Best to marinate first though-- for half a day in red wine and bouquet garni (include some rosemary, sage) if domesticated. In fact, if you have a favourite osso buco recipe, just add a little extra cinammon and even some good olives an hour before you stop the braise. We had good luck with this in Mexico last winter, but made the gremolata with lime instead of lemon. Jamie

Agreed: Wild pink and chum salmon can be less expensive than farmed product. Not incidentally, our cat enjoys a certain affection for chum salmon. True story. There are far too many generalizations about aquaculture; it has benefited the shellfish industry and its consumers enormously and, from all appearances, very safely. I would cite as positive examples the West Coast oyster and mussel industries, and perhaps the more recent successes of Hawaiian lobster aquaculture. But let's get even more specific. Just as all politics is local, so should fish farming be judged. The Bay of Fundy producers, whom Steven cites, are virtually unique. As Steven also points out, they farm in the greatest tidal flush in the world, which evacuates fish farm excrement and uneaten fish-pellet food waste twice a day. Not perfect, but certainly better than average. And Bay of Fundy farmers are also raising and harvesting a species—the Atlantic salmon—that is indigenous. Not so on this coast where many farms are tethered in bays and fjords to weatherproof them. Unfortunately, calmer waters with less tidal action are not as effective in cleaning pollutive waste. The result: sea-bottom morbidity. Second, it is the Atlantic salmon that is being farmed on the Pacific coast and escapee Atlantic farmed stock, more aggressive than the five Pacific species and which also breed more often, appear to be encroaching on native stock habitat. Links to that research are upthread. There are other long-term ecological threats too. But no issue associated with salmon farming has seized public attention like the recent research released regarding sea lice. The evidence is virtually conclusive that sea lice have infested many fish farms and are now attacking juvenile native wild stock at the time of their greatest vulnerability. Here, in part, is what the University of Alberta report, as quoted in the New York Times of March 30, had to say: "Sea lice live in salt water, and juvenile wild salmon first encounter them when they swim down river to the sea. The parasites bite fish to feed on their blood, creating open lesions that can disturb the fishes' osmotic balance with sea water. With the advent of fish farms, anchored cages that function as underwater feedlots for hatchery-bred salmon, the juvenile fish encounter unusually large numbers of parasites, the authors of the new report say. They did their fieldwork in April and May 2003, when they trapped about 5,500 juvenile pink and chum salmon swimming in a long, thin fjord in British Columbia that is also home to two salmon farms. Each fish was examined by hand for parasites. The scientists said they concluded that the fish were free of parasites until they neared the farms but that by the time they passed them and headed out to sea they could be so infested they ended up spreading parasitic contagion as they went." NB: A link to the full synopsis of this report is available upthread. This issue has crossed all political lines and has made for strange bedfellows: Few here will willingly give up a birthright based in a profound love for nature, and her natural harvest. So people as far right as Rafe Mair, a hard-bitten radio commentator and former provincial cabinet minister in the Social Credit regime, has vocally allied with folks he quite recently and derogatorily called tree-huggers. The potential ironies and dangers of farmed product replacing wild stock are obvious. Finally, and although farmed product is typically inferior to wild for most applications, that is but a sidebar to the main discussion of ecological endangerment. Even if it were superior, we would still ask: “But at what cost?” There then, in an effort to get past some of the generalizations, are just some of the specifics about where we live—and fish. Thank you for the opportunity to add my voice. Jamie

Jamiemaw, That is so funny. (I love CSI except for the gratuitous disgusting images.) The marinade consisted of Soy, pureed garlic and honey. ← The soy may have preserved it. Over time it can stiffen the flesh to the point where it can appear petrifying. Or merely scary. Jamie

Very interesting. If this is the case then the wild salmon I purchased has passed this test. I purchased it from "Fairway", but due to my laziness, it marinated for 2 days in my refrigerator. I was sure it would be ruined. It remained quite firm when sauteed, and was delicious. ← Emmapeel, Thank goodness, because at US$20 per pound (more than twice what we would pay here for guaranteed fresh product), a pudding of pink protein could make for a very unhappy Steed indeed. Had it been farmed, it likely would have been the CSI team and not him who you would have invited over for dinner. I'd be interested to know what was in your marinade.

Barbara-jo received her shipment yesterday. The other recently published book germane to this topic is Eating My Words by Mimi Sheraton, who also reviewed for the Times. Bryan Miller, the wonderful food and cookbook author who helped put Vancouver on the map in the early 90s, filled the position for a decade. He, I'm sure (given the vitriol Reichl levels at him) will get to go last. Take Garlic and Sapphires with more than a grain of salt; not unlike the disguises that Reichl effects, some of its characters and even meals are made-up fabrications too. Here's the discussion on another thread.

Yes. As I said upthread, privatejet, often the business of proforma restaurant reviewing is widely separated from the enterprise of food writing. Personally, I think it's useful to have at least a fundamental understanding of how the business is meant to work (it's the first thing I attack at UBC) and also, by throwing issues into a broader context (increasingly, about sustainabilty and environmental responsibility) that it can improve the discussion. As regards the economics of the business side, I'll never forget asking a restaurant/food writer at a newish boite what he thought the food costs might be running at. What are 'food costs?' he asked.

We've done quite a few side-by-side tastings. Much 'fresh' salmon is not necessarily--it can be as much as a week out of the water even in good metropolitan fishmongers. FAS (frozen at sea) Sockeye and Spring (King) has tested very well, and given the choice, is virtually indistinguishable from fresh wild, as long as the thaw is slow and steady (36 hours), in the refrigerator and preferably on ice. Thus (and as reported upthread), the real challenge for this coastal fishery is to educate the consumer and the restaurateur to FAS during November to May when, for the past few years, they have become more dependent on farmed product.

Where? Perhaps we should begin a Chilean sea bass alert thread. ← No kidding...it stuns me, I haven't eaten it in more than 4 years, in spite of having a really great recipe for it (and I don't have that many great recipes), and I'm not normally on top of things like that at all, so I'm assuming that more aware people have been not eating it for considerably longer. ← I took the chef at Lift to task in print recently for serving Chilean sea bass. His response was that he has tried to put other items such as escobar on the menu, but many have snubbed it. So economics remain a big part of the issue, especially when you've just spent $6.5 million on your restaurant. One reason the CSB became so wildly popular was because it's very forgiving; even in inexpert hands it's hard to screw up, and it does have that buttery flesh which for many of us is just a memory now.

Our local choices are certainly made easier Daddy-A, by two factors: The cost of wild Spring salmon (King/Chinook in the US) versus farmed product are much closer. According to posts on this thread New Yorkers are currently paying as much as US$23 per pound versus US$9 per pound here in Vancouver. Secondly, they can not assure themselves that it's wild product, whereas fishmongers such as Longliner (didn't you work there years ago?) won't touch farmed product of any description. Farmed product can have a 'looser' consistency (sometimes mushy), reminding of a mall-rat brought up on junk food. The test? Although farmed product grills well (the way its most often prepped in mid-priced restaurants), it does not a happy gallotine make. Nor, for that matter, will it take a marinade, such as the classic Blue Fjord-style. The soy and whisky in that marinade break the flesh very quickly: mush.

Where? Perhaps we should begin a Chilean sea bass alert thread.

These are all commendable thoughts, M'd, and as we educate ourselves to these issues, hoepfully we can--both individually and perhaps even collectively--make choices to take up less room. I would be entirely happy to carpool and I'm sure others would too. C and some other restaurants are already enrolled in the Ocean Wise program. Bishop's has had an organic program in place for years; Earls has had an organic greens program organized for about six years. So the opportunity, through this organization and others such as The Chefs' Table Society, lies first in education, of ourselves and ultimately the consumer, and then positive action. FYI, restaurant linen is not typically dry-cleaned, but rather laundered. Thanks for your thoughtful remarks, and we look forward to transmitting further information regarding the event shortly. As of this writing we are scheduling it for Saturday, June 25th at 1pm. Cheers, Jamie

If you try to go straight in from Canada, you will be asked to pay a large subscription. So best to circumvent and use Yahoo UK and search for 'Sunday Times', then 'food and drink'. This LINK should take you that far. Then simply search for AA Gill on the site, or read Giles Coren and some of their other food and drink writers. Cumbersome journey, but worth the struggle. This week Gill, coincident to this thread, talks about metaphor and simile in food writing! Cheers, Jamie